Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:31 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:21 pm And then you have my oldest. He's a few weeks from 17, just started his junior year, and college has been on all of our minds lately. He's autistic and fairly high functioning (PDD/NOS if that matters), but has significant social issues. He can work with other people if he needs to, but never comes off as personable, and only gets his best work done working alone. He can explain a concept just fine, but when it comes to interactive chatter, either social or technical, he falls flat. My honest assessment is that, unless he can get a degree in something he loves for which the demand people with a degree outweighs the difficulties involved in hiring him, he'll probably end up on disability within a few years of high school. I don't think he could handle a 9-5 doing something he hated. It is his only real chance at a normal life.

With that bouncing through my mind, this entire topic scares the hell out of me. I don't see a solution beyond 'take the shot and hope.'

FWIW, he wants to study engineering, and he is extremely mathematically talented.

I know this isn't where you said he wants to go, but a number of technical companies (I heard about it internally at Microsoft) are specifically targeting autistic people for recruitment. They know that they are tremendously valuable if their needs are met and are willing to be really flexible with work conditions. My son is also high functioning autistic, and I've been encouraging him to explore programming. It's something he's naturally into, though, so I don't know how applicable it is to others.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:32 pm**

They have teams on facebook now?

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:05 pm**

Autism and programming are good fits. You can be on the spectrum and perform well as an engineer, but you're fighting up hill as that's a fairly social endeavor (just not in what is considered a typical social manner). I've worked with autistic technicians and generally they've been amazing, (assuming they find the right fit). Sort of sucks because there are miles of differences between engineers and technicians that don't also involve in-person communication or the ability to ad lib when conditions change.

I'm super generalizing here. There will be engineering roles for which autism is not at all a detriment, but those are not the standard. Obviously there are inputs and outputs that go along with programming (i.e., oral communication), but there are many situations where you are your own god for the bulk of the work—or where technical specs are communicated in non-verbal ways.

Good luck fathers-with-STEM-oriented-children-on-the-spectrum. Your sons' specific details will be much more important than my generalizations based on but one person's experiences.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:37 pm**

God help you if you're autistic and just have mediocre technical skills. Not everyone is rain man.

My son started out strong (he learned to read by himself in about 3 days. I think it was subtitles for his brother's anime that did it) and able to do most math in his head, but now he needs to pay attention, be methodical and keep track of each individual step, and since he can't do it all in his head, he gets frustrated and turns off. Right now his interest in academics is not strong, and that scares me quite a bit. With no social skills to speak of and little interest in exploring math or science at the moment, it's a scary time.

With that said, he can be motivated with the right approach and when that happens it's kind of amazing to see how quickly he picks things up.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:14 pm**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:07 pm
GungHo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 pm I respect that college is no longer just 'that thing you do after HS'; but it doesn't have to just be job training. And it's value doesn't always have to be measured in $.
I start all conversations on this topic with a question. Do you believe post secondary education has any value beyond getting a job? If the answer is yes, I know what to expect. If the answer is no, I know I have an uphill battle regarding the topic.

In this thread I'm not paying attention because I don't feel like getting into it and quite frankly I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks about it right now.

I feel like I'm walking into a trap here but....yes. I think it has value beyond getting a job. I'm living proof of that idea as my BA is nothing more than wall art. It has done absolutely nothing for me in my professional career; it did get me into the community college program of my choice w/o any fuss but that's a pretty piss poor return on investment.

Fair enough. I'm just trying to absorb this stuff so that in 8 years when I'm going down this road I at least have a map to steer by. How/what kind(s) of conversations to have with my son when he's at this crossroads. Sure we've saved some $ for our boys but by the time they're ready for this step it'll be $100k/year for a friggin state school. That just isn't remotely possible for 99% of Americans.

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:21 pm I suspect that people generally see value in their own path. The only problem with that is that in most cases they ran an experiment with only one iteration. That makes it really hard to evaluate the alternatives.

I see that value in my path, but I don’t think that it is universal. I see a lot of value in other paths. A lot more value in some cases. And I think that not enough kids are aware of or really consider the full gamut of possibilities and consequences.

They want to attend the school with their favorite college FB team. They want to go to the best party school. Which is great. Just stop bitching about the cost when you do that. You chose to do it and agreed to saddle yourself with the debt. Own it.

Well said.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:31 pm**

FWIW, Ian had a hiccup a couple of years ago, also right after a method change. Part of the problem was that he wasn't used to having to put in heavy effort, especially in regards to homework. That was partially our fault, one of those hindsight things where we didn't recognize the mistake in time. He was always so good at all of his schoolwork that nothing was ever a struggle, or even a stretch. He'd sit in class, get all of the classwork done early, get all of his homework done in the time that was left, never needed to actively study, and got perfect grades, every test, every report card.

That sounds great, but it was a huge mistake on our part. Since he never struggled, he never learned how to overcome academic challenges. He'd never come up against any problem he didn't grasp the answer to instantly, so he had no idea of how to go about how to actively solving those issues when they cropped up. He didn't know how to get himself over a difficult concept, as there had never before been any. Not only that, but when it happened, he blamed himself. He didn't get that every kid (and adult) has to work to understand difficult things all the time. He just knew that he didn't get it, and thought himself a complete and total failure.

We had to teach him how to learn, and set up a minimum daily homework routine on top of it. Even if he has everything done in school, he has homework. He got used to it, and he ended up stronger for having been through it.

Anyway, the point of all of this:

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:37 pm and able to do most math in his head, but now he needs to pay attention, be methodical and keep track of each individual step, and since he can't do it all in his head, he gets frustrated and turns off.

I don't know your son, but there is every possibility that this is also a result of the change of method - from mental to paper math - rather than any reflection of his ability. When autists are forced to change our comfortable ways of doing things, we tend to get very, very frustrated, even panicked. Our routines are our source of order in a world that is disorderly.

Posted: **Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:54 am**

From the way you describe things on your end Blackhawk, there are many parallels between my son and yours, which is one of the driving factors in speaking to you specifically rather than just reading the internet.

My wife picks up on my son's anxiety far more quickly than I do. I often see it as stubbornness and resistance (which I'm proud to say is met with understanding and patience most of the time, but that's not always what he needs) but very often it's just that he's stressed out by whatever new thing is in front of him at the moment. It sounds like it should be obvious but it isn't always.

He had the same EA for 5 years of elementary school and she could bring out the best in him. He loved her. Then for grade six she moved away and he got a new one. The new one was good enough imo, but she wasn't the constant he had had for years and she had a bit less of a soft touch. Which is not to say that she was overly demanding or strict, but there was a lot more "you can't have your fun computer time until you finish your work" motivation rather than, for lack of a better word, manipulating/tricking/motivating him into agreeing to do the work. The "work" was always something well within his abilities and most often 5 minutes worth of effort. He didn't like that and he acted out. This past year was a trial because we got called in to the school many times (nearly once a week) because he was acting out, swearing (swearing at those trying to help us is a nearly unforgivable crime in my book) and occasionally tearing posters off the walls and/or pulling books off the shelves.

It's heart breaking, watching him struggle, and no picnic for those trying to help him either.

He spent a lot more time in a regular classroom in his last year of elementary school, and for the most part it went well enough. The school offers a number of special education paths and the number of kids there that aren't in the main stream is quite large. Amazingly, there was little to no bullying in or out of class that I am aware of. I regularly see "normal" kids greeting my son or waving good bye to him or just being around him without issue. It's amazing what education can do for both sides of the issue.

Posted: **Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:36 am**

Something I didn't pick up on with a contributing factor to the current state of the student loan process:

By the early 1990s, the issue of student debt was already notable enough for Bill Clinton to campaign on it. His vision was to allow students to pay back their loans by doing national service. But Republican pushback forced Clinton to settle for expanding a George H.W. Bush pilot program called Federal Direct Loan Demonstration, better known as Direct Loans, which allowed the government to make loans to students, cutting out the costly middlemen—the banks and guarantee agencies like PHEAA. Direct Loan borrowers were allowed to base their payments on their incomes, and to have their debts forgiven after 25 years. Eventually, Clinton planned, every new student loan would be a Direct Loan.

This proved to be a consequential moment for the American student debt crisis. Around this time, some guarantee agencies, perhaps panicked about their cash flow drying up if Clinton’s plan succeeded, took on what Bob Shireman, a major figure in the campaign for Direct Loans, calls “a business venture mentality.” The biggest player was Sallie Mae: By the time it became independent of the federal government in 2004, it was making profits of almost $2 billion a year, selling loans in bundles on Wall Street, and giving out private loans outside the federal system at rates of more than 20 percent in some cases. It was also gobbling up state loan agencies. In 2004, Sallie Mae even made an aggressive but unsuccessful bid to buy PHEAA.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:22 am**

Bloomberg

Student loans have seen almost 157 percent in cumulative growth over the last 11 years. By comparison, auto loan debt has grown 52 percent while mortgage and credit-card debt actually fell by about 1 percent, according to a Bloomberg Global Data analysis of federal and private loans. All told, there’s a whopping $1.5 trillion in student loans out there (through the second quarter of 2018), marking the second-largest consumer debt segment in the country after mortgages, according to the Federal Reserve. And the number keeps growing.
...
Student loan debt currently has the highest 90+ day delinquency rate of all household debt. More than 1 in 10 borrowers is at least 90 days delinquent, while mortgages and auto loans have a 1.1 percent and 4 percent delinquency rate, respectively, according to Bloomberg Global Data. While mortgages and auto loans have experienced an overall decrease in delinquencies since 2010, student loan delinquency rates remain within a percentage point of their all-time high in 2012.
...
Students attending for-profit universities and community colleges represented almost half of all borrowers leaving school and beginning to repay loans in 2011. They also accounted for 70 percent of all defaults. As a result, delinquencies skyrocketed in the 2011-12 academic year, reaching 11.73 percent.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:27 pm**

That's...ludicrous. I get that it's a major investment, both in money and probable future earnings, but come on. More total student debt than total car loans?

No wonder Americans hate taxes more than the rest of us, probably. There is no reinvestment of those tax dollars back into the population, and what's more, many (most?) Americans like it that way.

And that's not even touching on the actual cost of receiving an education in the US. And yes, I know, 2 years community college + 2 years state college. We've been over this, no reason to hash it out again. That still doesn't change the fact that most colleges are exorbitantly priced. Even if you could magically move everyone from high priced institutions, the community college/state colleges couldn't handle the vast influx of students, so many (most?) people are going to be stuck with either the higher priced institutions, or no institution at all.

Individuals might have a choice, but the student population as a whole does not.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:47 pm**

Forbes

U.S. Household Debt: The Highlights

Overall: The $13 trillion of household debt is $280 billion above its 2008 third quarter peak, and 16.2% above the 2013 second quarter trough.

Mortgage balances: remain the highest component of household debt, comprising $8.7 trillion

Mortgage delinquencies continued to improve, with 1.4% of mortgages 90+ days delinquent

Student loan debt: $1.4 trillion, with 11.2% 90+ days delinquent

Credit card balances: increased by $24 billion, with 4.6% 90+ days delinquent

Auto loans balances: increased by $24 billion to $1.2 trillion, continuing a six year trend, while 90+ day delinquencies increased to 4%

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:59 pm**

Yeah, that was my point. It was less a question about the truth of it, and more a question of "this is reasonable?".

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:12 pm**

You know what I do.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:58 pm**

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:12 pm You know what I do.

Oh sure. I just didn't want there to be confusion over my post. Your post reinforced my point, which I believe was your intent. It's just that I wasn't perfectly clear.

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2019 5:57 pm**

CNBC

Some student loan borrowers are packing their bags and fleeing from the U.S. to other countries, where the cost of living is often lower and debt collectors wield less power over them. Although there is no national data on how many people have left the United States because of student debt, borrowers tell their stories of doing so in Facebook groups and Reddit channels and how-to advice is offered on personal finance websites.
...
Outstanding student debt in the U.S. has tripled over the last decade and is projected to swell to $2 trillion by 2022. Average debt at graduation is currently around $30,000, up from an inflation-adjusted $16,000 in the early 1990s. Meanwhile, salaries for new bachelor degree recipients, also accounting for inflation, have remained almost flat over the last few decades.
...
Haag’s student loan balance of around $20,000 isn’t as large as the burden shouldered by many other borrowers, but, he said, his difficultly finding a college-level job in the U.S. has made that debt oppressive nonetheless.
...
He struggled to come up with the $300 a month he owed upon graduation. The first work he found after he left the University of Northern Colorado in 2011 — when the recession’s effects were still palpable — was on-again, off-again hours at a factory, unloading trucks and constructing toy rockets on an assembly line. He then went back to school to pursue a master’s degree in comparative literature at the University of Colorado Boulder. After that, he tried to make it as an adjunct professor, but still he could barely scrape a living together with the one class a semester he was assigned.

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2019 9:41 pm**

Higher education no longer translates into making a decent living anymore. I've been saying this for years. College and or university without a company paying your way and or guranteeing a job at the end of it is just stupidity. It's end stage capitalism sucking the last few dollars out of the working class.

The good news is that the mainstream is starting to recognise this.

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2019 9:46 pm**

You may have a bit of a biased outlook.

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2019 10:01 pm**

Drazzil wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 9:41 pm College and or university without a company paying your way and or guranteeing a job at the end of it career path is just stupidity at these prices unless you are part of the privileged class.

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2019 10:22 pm**

Inflation-adjusted income has been stagnant for the middle class for decades while the cost of education has skyrocketed. You still need college (or a good trade) to be in the middle class, and those with four-year degrees are now averaging $30k in debt. While so burdened, they aren't forming households or saving for retirement.

My nephew just got his first electrical engineering job after graduating from USC last week. Chevron is starting him at $100,000 and he got through it with no debt. He gave the USMC a few years of his life to achieve that, and now he's working for an evil empire, but it can be done. Some form of public service in exchange for "free" tuition is one possible way forward.

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2019 11:55 pm**

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 10:22 pm Inflation-adjusted income has been stagnant for the middle class for decades while the cost of education has skyrocketed. You still need college (or a good trade) to be in the middle class, and those with four-year degrees are now averaging $30k in debt. While so burdened, they aren't forming households or saving for retirement.

My nephew just got his first electrical engineering job after graduating from USC last week. Chevron is starting him at $100,000 and he got through it with no debt. He gave the USMC a few years of his life to achieve that, and now he's working for an evil empire, but it can be done. Some form of public service in exchange for "free" tuition is one possible way forward.

Good for him. STEM is hot right now so I have no doubt it can be done. I would say that by and large people who "make good" as it were are getting harder to find though.

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2019 11:55 pm**

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 9:46 pm You may have a bit of a biased outlook.

I definitely do. Yes.

Posted: **Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:02 am**

I know my degree was a waste of time and money. Gave me a little more nuanced view of the world, but I couldn't get a sniff at an IT job in the Great Recession. I ended up working all kind of crazy hours and made $108K last year. I'll take that until it breaks me. My son graduated with a degree in creative writing and works in a warehouse. He has admitted to me that he thinks his college experience was money dumped down the drain.

Posted: **Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:54 am**

Izzy and/or Nox will produce some statistics to counter your anecdotes, if you'd like. At least they have in the past.

Higher education results in higher wages, typically. It depends what kind of debt you accrue doing it whether the extra wages are worth it to you. Nox has shown that you can achieve a degree for significantly less than most people seem to be paying and is being reported (edit: in news articles).

That individuals can't find jobs is a given, and that sucks for those people. I am sympathetic. But the numbers show a significant increase in wages for post secondary vs secondary education.

I'll let those guys jump in if they feel like it. I'm not going to do it myself.

Posted: **Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:59 am**

Not to mention the unemployment rate.

Posted: **Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:36 am**

Default wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:02 am I know my degree was a waste of time and money. Gave me a little more nuanced view of the world, but I couldn't get a sniff at an IT job in the Great Recession. I ended up working all kind of crazy hours and made $108K last year. I'll take that until it breaks me. My son graduated with a degree in creative writing and works in a warehouse. He has admitted to me that he thinks his college experience was money dumped down the drain.

Creative writing? Does he at least try to apply that in his spare time?

Posted: **Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:10 pm**

There are plenty of jobs -- that don't pay well and have crap benefits. There is also need in difficult, high skill sectors. A path to those jobs is not easy.

Posted: **Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:28 am**

pr0ner wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:36 am
Default wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:02 am I know my degree was a waste of time and money. Gave me a little more nuanced view of the world, but I couldn't get a sniff at an IT job in the Great Recession. I ended up working all kind of crazy hours and made $108K last year. I'll take that until it breaks me. My son graduated with a degree in creative writing and works in a warehouse. He has admitted to me that he thinks his college experience was money dumped down the drain.
Creative writing? Does he at least try to apply that in his spare time?

Seriously, I hate to ask this question but what career did he expect to get with that degree?

Posted: **Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:31 am**

Zarathud wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:10 pm There are plenty of jobs -- that don't pay well and have crap benefits. There is also need in difficult, high skill sectors. A path to those jobs is not easy.

Drazzil made 108k last year. I find it hard to believe there is a plethora of jobs that aren't paying well.

Posted: **Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:09 am**

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:31 am
Zarathud wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:10 pm There are plenty of jobs -- that don't pay well and have crap benefits. There is also need in difficult, high skill sectors. A path to those jobs is not easy.
Drazzil made 108k last year. I find it hard to believe there is a plethora of jobs that aren't paying well.

Did you mean Drazzil or Default?

Posted: **Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:27 am**

pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:09 am
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:31 am
Zarathud wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:10 pm There are plenty of jobs -- that don't pay well and have crap benefits. There is also need in difficult, high skill sectors. A path to those jobs is not easy.
Drazzil made 108k last year. I find it hard to believe there is a plethora of jobs that aren't paying well.
Did you mean Drazzil or Default?

Yeah that was Default and he did it working 60+ hour weeks.

I can't comment further as I am one of the lucky ones that made it in STEM. I did come out with a pretty significant debt (can't remember specifically but $20k+ 1994 dollars, I think), but paid it off in about 8 years with all the money I made in the tech bubble.

Posted: **Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:33 pm**

pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:09 am
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:31 am
Zarathud wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:10 pm There are plenty of jobs -- that don't pay well and have crap benefits. There is also need in difficult, high skill sectors. A path to those jobs is not easy.
Drazzil made 108k last year. I find it hard to believe there is a plethora of jobs that aren't paying well.
Did you mean Drazzil or Default?

Whoops. That makes more sense

Posted: **Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:14 am**

pr0ner wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:36 am
Default wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:02 am I know my degree was a waste of time and money. Gave me a little more nuanced view of the world, but I couldn't get a sniff at an IT job in the Great Recession. I ended up working all kind of crazy hours and made $108K last year. I'll take that until it breaks me. My son graduated with a degree in creative writing and works in a warehouse. He has admitted to me that he thinks his college experience was money dumped down the drain.
Creative writing? Does he at least try to apply that in his spare time?

Not to my knowledge. If he went to Penn State, we had the entire thing covered in a tap fund. Unfortunately, my marriage was breaking up at the time and I lost whatever influence I had. So, he ended up going to some rinkydink college in Indiana and graduated with a huge amount of debt, which he burned his inheritance from his grandmother on.As far as I know, he sleeps and plays computer games to fill his spare time.

Posted: **Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:28 am**

coopasonic wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:27 am
pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:09 am
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:31 am
Zarathud wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:10 pm There are plenty of jobs -- that don't pay well and have crap benefits. There is also need in difficult, high skill sectors. A path to those jobs is not easy.
Drazzil made 108k last year. I find it hard to believe there is a plethora of jobs that aren't paying well.
Did you mean Drazzil or Default?
Yeah that was Default and he did it working 60+ hour weeks.

I can't comment further as I am one of the lucky ones that made it in STEM. I did come out with a pretty significant debt (can't remember specifically but $20k+ 1994 dollars, I think), but paid it off in about 8 years with all the money I made in the tech bubble.

Christmas was 70+. Physically, it's tough, but I am in decent shape.

Posted: **Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:50 am**

Default wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:14 am As far as I know, he sleeps and plays computer games to fill his spare time.

So living the dream, then.

Posted: **Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:04 am**

As long as he doesn't become an incell.

Posted: **Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:38 am**

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:33 pm
pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:09 am
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:31 am
Zarathud wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:10 pm There are plenty of jobs -- that don't pay well and have crap benefits. There is also need in difficult, high skill sectors. A path to those jobs is not easy.
Drazzil made 108k last year. I find it hard to believe there is a plethora of jobs that aren't paying well.
Did you mean Drazzil or Default?
Whoops. That makes more sense

Thaaanks.

Octopus Overlords

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