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The New Bubble

For discussion of religion and politics

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RunningMn9
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:55 pm

My harsh words were for the decision, more than the student. And I would never judge them so harshly if I was talking to them (that’s counter-productive). I actually have large amounts of empathy for recent college grads and the shit sandwich they’ve been dealt, since I work with so many of them.

I can accept that I should be more lenient on them given their lack of experience.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Combustible Lemur » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:22 pm

GreenGoo wrote:What was your salary during the time you would have been getting your masters? Teaching is one of the very, very few fields where salary is directly tied to your education plus seniority.

There is a bit of that in the federal government as well, but it's not nearly as rigid as in teaching, and not nearly as impactful.
Its variable, assuming i could have worked as i did by doing later, very similar.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:39 am

RunningMn9 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:55 pm
My harsh words were for the decision, more than the student. And I would never judge them so harshly if I was talking to them (that’s counter-productive). I actually have large amounts of empathy for recent college grads and the shit sandwich they’ve been dealt, since I work with so many of them.

I can accept that I should be more lenient on them given their lack of experience.
I misunderstood your vehemence. My apologies. It seems you escaped with your feelings intact, so I won't feel overly bad about my mistake. :wink:

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:14 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:39 am
I misunderstood your vehemence. My apologies. It seems you escaped with your feelings intact, so I won't feel overly bad about my mistake. :wink:
Being a robot without feelings, yeah, you don't need to feel bad. :)
And in banks across the world
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Grifman » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:28 am

Well, if this a bubble thread or education thread? :)
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Zarathud » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:49 am

The debt might be sustainable if new jobs were stable. I know too many millennials who kept getting unpaid internships or laid off after graduation.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:36 am

Zarathud wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:49 am
The debt might be sustainable if new jobs were stable. I know too many millennials who kept getting unpaid internships or laid off after graduation.
I don't understand how to reconcile this statement with the 88% of under 25 year old college graduates being employed.

I will also reiterate that anyone paying 100k for a bachelors degree is irresponsible and I feel no guilt.

Unicornpoint is paying $3,000 a semester at the University of Houston. With tax credits, it's half that. Granted, she's not paying room and board, but that still wouldn't add up to $100,000 and almost all students have some form of grant or aid packages.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:49 am

Employed. Not necessarily working a) in their field b) full time c) in a job that requires a degree.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:53 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:49 am
Employed. Not necessarily working a) in their field b) full time c) in a job that requires a degree.
Average graduate
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean wage for 20- to 24-year-olds across all education levels in the third quarter of 2016 was $625 a week, or $32,500 a year. For 25- to 34-year-olds, it was $966 a week, or $50,232 a year. The average salary for a recent college graduate with a bachelor’s degree was $50,219 a year in 2015, according to the National Association of Colleges and Employers.
They are doing pretty well.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:57 am

Depends on where you live.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:57 am
Depends on where you live.
That's probably why it's an average :)

The important part is salary in relation to non-college grads because it proves the theory about a bachelor's degree being worthless is nonsense.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by malchior » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:14 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 am
Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:57 am
Depends on where you live.
That's probably why it's an average :)

The important part is salary in relation to non-college grads because it proves the theory about a bachelor's degree being worthless is nonsense.
Worthless is clearly wrong - worth less than their parent's bachelor's is probably more accurate.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:14 am

It's certainly a position that you won't see me arguing, especially seeing as I look at the unemployment numbers every month.

That being said, it is not, nor should it be, a requirement. Training and experience come in all shapes and sizes, especially in technical fields. I'd be all for a resurgence in VoTech schools.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:12 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:14 am
It's certainly a position that you won't see me arguing, especially seeing as I look at the unemployment numbers every month.

That being said, it is not, nor should it be, a requirement. Training and experience come in all shapes and sizes, especially in technical fields. I'd be all for a resurgence in VoTech schools.
Agreed. I'm a huge proponent of them as well, and feel those technical tracks should be made available in high school.

I'd like to see the BLS separate out skilled labor from unskilled labor, though I don't know exactly how they'd do it. I don't feel that electricians being lumped in with fast food cashiers as useful information in the non-college graduate category.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Chaz » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:43 pm

I'm always kind of regretting that I didn't decide to go into carpentry, welding, or electrical, and I have a funny feeling I'm going to wind up pushing my kid in that direction. Of course, by the time he's old enough to think about it, the university system may be gone anyway.

The real killer is that increasingly, the bachelor's degree is considered the bare minimum to get a decently-paying job, on par with what the high school diploma was 50 years ago, but the cost of getting a bachelor's has been going increasingly up. The option to get out of high school and just go to work used to be a valid option, but in the post-boomer era, it really isn't. Which is dumb, because I'd be willing to bet that many or most people with bachelor's degrees aren't actually working in the field they majored in. I'm very happy with my liberal arts education, because it taught me a ton of analytic and writing skills that I wouldn't have gotten with a STEM major or whatever, but ultimately, I'm not using the "stuff" I officially learned to get my degree.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Combustible Lemur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:40 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:14 am
It's certainly a position that you won't see me arguing, especially seeing as I look at the unemployment numbers every month.

That being said, it is not, nor should it be, a requirement. Training and experience come in all shapes and sizes, especially in technical fields. I'd be all for a resurgence in VoTech schools.
Agreed. I'm a huge proponent of them as well, and feel those technical tracks should be made available in high school.

I'd like to see the BLS separate out skilled labor from unskilled labor, though I don't know exactly how they'd do it. I don't feel that electricians being lumped in with fast food cashiers as useful information in the non-college graduate category.
It would unfortunately require a culture wide fundamental shift in standardized testing. Skills based rather than academic based. Maybe something that is process versus product oriented. I haven't seen the ASVAB lately but it definitely used to seek mechanical engineering as parallel in value to traditional academic skills. If voted schools to fight for equal percentage of practical math and spatial analysis (design) students you might see some equality in distribution. Right now, language and history acumen has an outsized weight in higher education acceptance.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by gbasden » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:59 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:12 pm

Agreed. I'm a huge proponent of them as well, and feel those technical tracks should be made available in high school.

That's one of the things I really like about my local school district. Each of the high schools has one or more academies that function side by side with regular classes. They vary by school, and range from engineering, green energy and computer related to food service, construction and law enforcement. My son is in a computer academy, and his classwork over the next four years includes building and repairing PCs, creating web sites, security, database technology and running and maintaining a set of servers that supports the classroom infrastructure. They've successfully gotten students internships with Google and Apple out of high school, and from what I've seen the other academies are equally good as gateways to vocational training.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Combustible Lemur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:23 pm

gbasden wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:12 pm

Agreed. I'm a huge proponent of them as well, and feel those technical tracks should be made available in high school.

That's one of the things I really like about my local school district. Each of the high schools has one or more academies that function side by side with regular classes. They vary by school, and range from engineering, green energy and computer related to food service, construction and law enforcement. My son is in a computer academy, and his classwork over the next four years includes building and repairing PCs, creating web sites, security, database technology and running and maintaining a set of servers that supports the classroom infrastructure. They've successfully gotten students internships with Google and Apple out of high school, and from what I've seen the other academies are equally good as gateways to vocational training.
This is slowly regaining traction. The problems are the current crop of teachers and admin have no idea how to really integrate it. Because we have a whole generation raised in the university above all climate. Second is it adds a shitlpad of resource needs. For it to work best the kids have to put their hands on industry stuff. There are a lot of industry skills that to a 14 year old are stupid boring but if they learn the tedious stuff in conjunction with the practical implementation it catches more buy in and long term thinking. I'm currently working on getting the kids certified in construction industry standards and they're stoked not just from an interest standpoint but from a make money to pay for college/ additional trade certs.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Default » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:03 pm

Fwiw, my kid with the 80k English degree is working in a warehouse for 13 bucks an hour. He has full-time employment!

The 27 year old without a college degree is unemployed and the best he can do is 10 bucks an hour - at a warehouse.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:07 pm

Default wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:03 pm
Fwiw, my kid with the 80k English degree is working in a warehouse for 13 bucks an hour. He has full-time employment!

The 27 year old without a college degree is unemployed and the best he can do is 10 bucks an hour - at a warehouse.
What are they doing to find better employment?
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Pyperkub » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:26 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 am
Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:57 am
Depends on where you live.
That's probably why it's an average :)

The important part is salary in relation to non-college grads because it proves the theory about a bachelor's degree being worthless is nonsense.
Even more for the graduate degrees - I think Masters' degree income should probably be broken down by debt accumulated for said Masters.

I'd wager a chunk of the high earning graduate degree data points are in fact the folks whose parents had enough money and influence to get them a good job out of college even without the graduate degree and/or pay for their degrees w/o student debt. Thinking the scions of wealthy families who have gone to private schools all their life and are just getting an MBA/JD to get into a job they would have gotten w/o the Masters.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by PLW » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:38 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:12 pm
But all of the full-time tenured academics are telling them to just keep going to school because if they stop, they're never start up again.
Not all professors! I always tell people to get a job.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Moliere » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:39 pm

Tell your kids to become a welder. It's cheaper and pays better than McDonalds.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:41 pm

Moliere wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:39 pm
Tell your kids to become a welder. It's cheaper and pays better than McDonalds.
I expected better, but it beats a sharp stick in the eye.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Moliere » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:45 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:41 pm
Moliere wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:39 pm
Tell your kids to become a welder. It's cheaper and pays better than McDonalds.
I expected better, but it beats a sharp stick in the eye.
Maybe you can get recruited to save the Earth from an asteroid. Wait, that's miners. Tell your kids to become miners. That's a job with a future!
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:55 pm

I've been threatening to send my kids to work in a coal mine since they were 3.

I never follow through though. :oops:

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:31 pm

Welders are like nurses. There are a lot of certifications.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Default » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:47 pm

I made 85k the past two years by the simple plan of working six days a week, 60+ hours.


Apparently, nobody wants to do the "rain/sleet/snow" thing any more.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Default » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:51 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:07 pm
Default wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:03 pm
Fwiw, my kid with the 80k English degree is working in a warehouse for 13 bucks an hour. He has full-time employment!

The 27 year old without a college degree is unemployed and the best he can do is 10 bucks an hour - at a warehouse.
What are they doing to find better employment?
Job hunting? The college kid still owes 30k and will probably use the money from his grandmother's estate to pay off his student loan. The non-college kid has exhausted my patience and will be moving into an efficiency apartment in five months. Or his car. He seems not to grok the whole "l need to take care of myself" paradigm.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Moliere » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:53 pm

Default wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:47 pm
I made 85k the past two years by the simple plan of working six days a week, 60+ hours.


Apparently, nobody wants to do the "rain/sleet/snow" thing any more.
That's $29.51 an hour or $56,659 a year relative to a 40 hour work week. I will take the smaller salary to work fewer hours.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Default » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:37 pm

Good for you! I, on the other hand, have to retire in ten years and the divorce did what they do so well, which is destroy your previous plans for a stable retirement.
Moliere wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:53 pm
Default wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:47 pm
I made 85k the past two years by the simple plan of working six days a week, 60+ hours.


Apparently, nobody wants to do the "rain/sleet/snow" thing any more.
That's $29.51 an hour or $56,659 a year relative to a 40 hour work week. I will take the smaller salary to work fewer hours.
"pcp, lsd, thc, tgb...it's all good." ~ Kraken

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:19 pm

Heard this financial advice on the TV the other day - the best way to build wealth:

Same car, same house, same spouse.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Smoove_B » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:56 pm

Saw this article and thought of this thread - A generation of college students buried in debt:
The economy has rebounded. But the student loan debt burying Ruiz and others has soared to an all-time high. More than 44 million Americans now carry more than $1.4 trillion in outstanding student loans, according to an estimate by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. In 2008, that number was $640 billion.

...

“Year after year, we have slowly shifted more and more college costs onto the backs of students,” says James Kvaal, a former White House policy adviser who is president of the not-for-profit Institute for College Access and Success, which works to make college more affordable. “And we’re now seeing signs that, for many students, the debts are becoming insurmountable obstacles to getting ahead in life.

“These are people who played by the rules, worked hard, studied hard and are trying to make a better life for themselves — but, after college, in some cases, it doesn’t pay off, and they’re left carrying these debts they can’t afford.”
Some of the profiles they've included are depressing beyond words.
“I’ll probably never be able to buy a car,” Halpin, 32, says through tears. “I can’t afford to have kids — maybe not ever, but not now. I joke about it with my friends. But it’s not entirely a joke when I say I fully intend to die with this debt. I don’t think it’s ever going to leave me.”

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:08 am

Here's an idea: Don't go to some place that costs $100,000 to get a degree.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by NickAragua » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:14 am

I heard "Joe Bob's Book Learnin' and Chainsaw Repair" is a pretty well-known and respected institution for higher learning and only charges $10k/year.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by pr0ner » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:19 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:08 am
Here's an idea: Don't go to some place that costs $100,000 to get a degree.
Define "costs $100,000 to get a degree". Is that tuition only? Does that include room and board?
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:20 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:08 am
Here's an idea: Don't go to some place that costs $100,000 to get a degree.
Same as credit card debt, bad mortgages, car loans, etc. Except there's the myth of "good debt".
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coopasonic
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by coopasonic » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:23 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:08 am
Here's an idea: Don't go to some place that costs $100,000 to get a degree.
My 6th grader had a unit on financial literacy and they researched colleges looking at costs, degree options and salary ranges. He decided Texas A&M was a better choice than USC. My eyes just about exploded when I saw the cost for USC. Good choice son.

On the flip side, he decided Wildlife Biologist was his major of choice. OK, kid, the first four years are on us. You are on your own after that. We'll see if he decides to enjoin the insanely indebted masses.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Remus West » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:20 am
noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:08 am
Here's an idea: Don't go to some place that costs $100,000 to get a degree.
Same as credit card debt, bad mortgages, car loans, etc. Except there's the myth of "good debt".
Except student loans are bankruptcy proof. You can admit defeat to credit card debt, a bad mortgage, or a car loan you can not afford. They will come after you for student loan debt the same way the IRS comes after you for back taxes all the way through garnishing your wages. The student loan debt mountain is going to force a lot of people into low paying but off the book jobs just because they won't be able to afford food and payments while working a better job due to losing portions of their pay check to the loan.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:37 am

NickAragua wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:14 am
I heard "Joe Bob's Book Learnin' and Chainsaw Repair" is a pretty well-known and respected institution for higher learning and only charges $10k/year.
Keep perpetuating that myth.

The curriculum for all accredited Texas public universities is exactly the same whether you go to community college or the University of Texas.

I totally sympathize with someone who could be saddled with 40k of debt, even if I think that's a reasonable price to pay. I don't have much sympathy for someone who chooses a school that costs 30k+ per year.
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