will marijuana ever be legal???

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will marijuana ever be legal???

Yes
84
76%
No
13
12%
Not sure
13
12%
 
Total votes: 110

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noxiousdog
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by noxiousdog »

Scuzz wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Scuzz wrote:Because of the recent harvest time murders (at least 3 different incidents of guys getting shot and killed by people protecting their legally growing medicinal weed) the County of Fresno has outlawed outdoor pot growing.

Imagine backyards all over the state with weed growing and the problems that will occur every harvest season by those who will "hand pick" their weed.....
I would assume they'd be right there with homebrew and tobacco problems.

So when was the last time someone was shot for stealing beer out of someones garage...?

And murders occur every day over stolen cigs......... :roll:
Exactly. When the price goes from $200 oz to $20 a pound, the crime drops because risk/reward changes.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Malificent »

Scuzz wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Scuzz wrote:Because of the recent harvest time murders (at least 3 different incidents of guys getting shot and killed by people protecting their legally growing medicinal weed) the County of Fresno has outlawed outdoor pot growing.

Imagine backyards all over the state with weed growing and the problems that will occur every harvest season by those who will "hand pick" their weed.....
I would assume they'd be right there with homebrew and tobacco problems.

So when was the last time someone was shot for stealing beer out of someones garage...?

And murders occur every day over stolen cigs......... :roll:
Actually, I'm pretty sure people are shot and murdered over more trivial things than that all the time. And I say that as someone who has never done any sort of drugs and doesn't really have a horse in this race.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by RLMullen »

Scuzz wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Scuzz wrote:Because of the recent harvest time murders (at least 3 different incidents of guys getting shot and killed by people protecting their legally growing medicinal weed) the County of Fresno has outlawed outdoor pot growing.

Imagine backyards all over the state with weed growing and the problems that will occur every harvest season by those who will "hand pick" their weed.....
I would assume they'd be right there with homebrew and tobacco problems.

So when was the last time someone was shot for stealing beer out of someones garage...?

And murders occur every day over stolen cigs......... :roll:
I think someone needs to write a chapter in the wOOki explaining NDs use of excessive hyperbolic irony to make points.

@ Scuzz... you proved NDs point! There is no rash of murders for stealing beer and cigs from peoples' garages. When the economic value of pot is reduced to that of beer and cigarettes there will be no "harvest murders" either!
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Scuzz
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Scuzz »

RLMullen wrote:
Scuzz wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Scuzz wrote:Because of the recent harvest time murders (at least 3 different incidents of guys getting shot and killed by people protecting their legally growing medicinal weed) the County of Fresno has outlawed outdoor pot growing.

Imagine backyards all over the state with weed growing and the problems that will occur every harvest season by those who will "hand pick" their weed.....
I would assume they'd be right there with homebrew and tobacco problems.

So when was the last time someone was shot for stealing beer out of someones garage...?

And murders occur every day over stolen cigs......... :roll:
I think someone needs to write a chapter in the wOOki explaining NDs use of excessive hyperbolic irony to make points.

@ Scuzz... you proved NDs point! There is no rash of murders for stealing beer and cigs from peoples' garages. When the economic value of pot is reduced to that of beer and cigarettes there will be no "harvest murders" either!
Perhaps if the price actually drops to that point......but I doubt even if legalized that pot will ever have the low price of a cartoon of cigs or a 6-pack of beer...

Also Pot having always been illegal will probably continue to have it's entrprenuers who will sell better stuff at underground prices...
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

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noxiousdog
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by noxiousdog »

Scuzz wrote:
Perhaps if the price actually drops to that point......but I doubt even if legalized that pot will ever have the low price of a cartoon of cigs or a 6-pack of beer...

Also Pot having always been illegal will probably continue to have it's entrprenuers who will sell better stuff at underground prices...
Why wouldn't it? It's easier to grow than tobacco even.

Regardless, theres a HUGE difference between $200 oz (current price of mj) and $20 /pound (current price of tobacco). It's not even like we have (significant) murders for Dom Perignon or Cuban cigars.

also, it's not like we haven't done this before. see: prohibition.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by LordMortis »

noxiousdog wrote: Regardless, theres a HUGE difference between $200 oz (current price of mj) and $20 /pound (current price of tobacco).

If you buy cigarette tobacco it is priced to about $50 per pound after federal taxes right now. This can be side stepped by buying pipe cut tobacco and rolling it. Currently in Michigan, pipe cut tobacco can be had for about $16 a pound after Michigan taxes.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Scuzz »

noxiousdog wrote:
Scuzz wrote:
Perhaps if the price actually drops to that point......but I doubt even if legalized that pot will ever have the low price of a cartoon of cigs or a 6-pack of beer...

Also Pot having always been illegal will probably continue to have it's entrprenuers who will sell better stuff at underground prices...
Why wouldn't it? It's easier to grow than tobacco even.

Regardless, theres a HUGE difference between $200 oz (current price of mj) and $20 /pound (current price of tobacco). It's not even like we have (significant) murders for Dom Perignon or Cuban cigars.

also, it's not like we haven't done this before. see: prohibition.
I will agree that if marijuana was made totally legal with no growing/sales limitations that what you say would be true. Or if all weed were born equal it would be true. However while anyone can grow a marijuana plant few will grow decent stuff. I also think weed will end up costing considerably more than $20 an ounce after being taxed and pre-packaged.

And if California legalizes it and the feds don't crush them for it....how long will it take before weed flows from California to other states for re-sale?

For the record.........I personally favor a law that does legalize marijuana. With adequate law to prosecute those who drive wasted (there currently is no test that can determine that). Marijuana stays in the system a long time so evidence of use is there but evidence of "overuse" when driving would be tough to find. Also I would not want public use.

Of course I would like to see tobacco products outlawed until such time as the people who use them have to pay for the resulting diseases themselves instead of all of us.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by McBa1n »

Haha, saw that Friday. I thought the secret best part of him lighting a doob was he puff puff passed.
Incidentally, that was about as good a show of Real Time as I've seen in years... Although the real substance really hit on the online "overtime".
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by noxiousdog »

This is late, but there's always another chance.

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Robin Goldstein wrote:The U.S. has less than 5% of the world’s population, yet we have a quarter of the world’s prisoners. Since the declaration of the “War on Drugs” in the 1970s, the U.S. prison population has more than quadrupled. More than 1.5 million Americans are now arrested each year for nonviolent drug offenses, and more than 500,000 of them are imprisoned.

To date, the War on Drugs has killed more than 30,000 Mexicans, made our borders less safe, ruined the lives of millions of American families, wasted hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer money, and created the world’s largest prison population. The marijuana prohibition alone costs (by one estimate) more than $40 billion per year—yet it hasn’t achieved its stated goals of reducing marijuana use. Instead, it has created a black market that has turned the pot trade into a lucrative, tax-free industry dominated by organized crime (especially in Mexico, where half the trade is in marijuana) and plagued by the dangers of impure, unregulated drugs. And it stuffs our crowded, enormously expensive prisons with nonviolent pot offenders that don’t belong there.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Peacedog »

Nox's link wrote:To date, the War on Drugs has killed more than 30,000 Mexicans
Dude, the violence means we are winning.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Kraken »

I'm surprised that CA voted against legalization. Continuing prohibition won't make anyone stop getting high, so why wouldn't they go for the tax money? Well, I'm not up on all the nuances of their ballot proposal; presumably it will be back with improvements in '12.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Isgrimnur »

Peacedog wrote:
Nox's link wrote:To date, the War on Drugs has killed more than 30,000 Mexicans
Dude, the violence means we are winning.
A true Texan would celebrate that number. :horse: :wink:

I'm reading the history of the Texas Rangers, and it's apparent that we've never really needed more than an excuse to engage in warfare against our neighbors to the South and those that came from there.

Honestly, I don't think the comparisons of legalization to the end of Prohibition, as the crops utilized for alcohol production were all used for other things. With legalization, you're looking at changing land over to other uses. I think legalization would spike demand in excess of the capacity for legal production and still provide an outlet for criminal gangs to still exploit that demand in El Norte.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Scuzz »

Kraken wrote:I'm surprised that CA voted against legalization. Continuing prohibition won't make anyone stop getting high, so why wouldn't they go for the tax money? Well, I'm not up on all the nuances of their ballot proposal; presumably it will be back with improvements in '12.

It was poorly written and from one analysis I heard on radio the "tax" provisions weren't explained very well. Also the law would have actually made things harder for the true "medical" marijuana users by limiting the amount of weed they could grow compared to what they can grow under the current law. Apparently a lot of current "medical" users actually eat the stuff instead of smoke it, which means you have to grow much more than if you smoke it.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Zarathud »

A joke about the legislative intent and stoners almost writes itself....

:ninja:
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by pengo »

Marijuana legalization measure loses in California: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101103/ap_ ... galization" target="_blank
Supporters of Proposition 19 blamed Tuesday's outcome on the conservative leanings of older voters who participate in midterm elections. They also acknowledged that young voters had not turned out in sufficient numbers to secure victory, but said they were ready to try again in two years.
The irony ? ;)

I'm surprised tho, that the older demographic in Cali would vote against it as well, what happened to the hippies of the 60s? Did they all die out and not grow old? Or there is 4 (religious) conservative for every 1 (hippie) liberal?
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Scuzz »

pengo wrote:Marijuana legalization measure loses in California: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101103/ap_ ... galization" target="_blank
Supporters of Proposition 19 blamed Tuesday's outcome on the conservative leanings of older voters who participate in midterm elections. They also acknowledged that young voters had not turned out in sufficient numbers to secure victory, but said they were ready to try again in two years.
The irony ? ;)

I'm surprised tho, that the older demographic in Cali would vote against it as well, what happened to the hippies of the 60s? Did they all die out and not grow old? Or there is 4 (religious) conservative for every 1 (hippie) liberal?
They all grew up, got some money, turned conservative and left the state......
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by RuperT »

Old hippies know people who can get them a prescription, I guess. Worse, the reformed ones feel better about protecting others from their mistakes. Thanks a lot, Dragonfly!
I think Schwarzenegger's recent decriminalization of small amount marijuana possession really marginalized the social justice aspect of the proposition for informed fence-sitters. That was pretty slick. The pessimist in me expects a recriminalization shortly.
[edit: I thought it had been a felony, as it is in sunny Florida]
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Kraken »

RuperT wrote: I think Schwarzenegger's recent decriminalization of small amount marijuana possession really marginalized the social justice aspect of the proposition for informed fence-sitters. That was pretty slick. The pessimist in me expects a recriminalization shortly.
It does go in cycles -- the general attitude in the 70s was at least as libertine as it is today, and then along came Reagan. But yeah, decrim takes the urgency out of legalization. It's only technically illegal here unless you're a dealer -- no jackbooted thugs are going to kick in my door because I might or might not have some demon weed in the house. After 35 years in the counterculture I'm not sure I'd like mainstream acceptance...or commercialization. Legalization is all about changing who profits.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

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Kraken wrote:It does go in cycles -- the general attitude in the 70s was at least as libertine as it is today, and then along came Reagan. But yeah, decrim takes the urgency out of legalization. It's only technically illegal here unless you're a dealer -- no jackbooted thugs are going to kick in my door because I might or might not have some demon weed in the house. After 35 years in the counterculture I'm not sure I'd like mainstream acceptance...or commercialization. Legalization is all about changing who profits.
But they will drag you to the pokey for buying drugs, either from a dealer who happens to get busted when you're buying or from a cop.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Kraken »

Interesting look at Portugal's experiment with legalizing all drugs. It's a balanced analysis of the pros, the cons, and the unknowns. A few highlights:
Faced with both a public health crisis and a public relations disaster, Portugal’s elected officials took a bold step. They decided to decriminalize the possession of all illicit drugs — from marijuana to heroin — but continue to impose criminal sanctions on distribution and trafficking. The goal: easing the burden on the nation’s criminal justice system and improving the people’s overall health by treating addiction as an illness, not a crime.

As the sweeping reforms went into effect nine years ago, some in Portugal prepared themselves for the worst. They worried that the country would become a junkie nirvana, that many neighborhoods would soon resemble Casal Ventoso, and that tourists would come to Portugal for one reason only: to get high. “We promise sun, beaches, and any drug you like,” complained one fearful politician at the time.

But nearly a decade later, there’s evidence that Portugal’s great drug experiment not only didn’t blow up in its face; it may have actually worked. More addicts are in treatment. Drug use among youths has declined in recent years. Life in Casal Ventoso, Lisbon’s troubled neighborhood, has improved. And new research, published in the British Journal of Criminology, documents just how much things have changed in Portugal. Coauthors Caitlin Elizabeth Hughes and Alex Stevens report a 63 percent increase in the number of Portuguese drug users in treatment and, shortly after the reforms took hold, a 499 percent increase in the amount of drugs seized — indications, the authors argue, that police officers, freed up from focusing on small-time possession, have been able to target big-time traffickers while drug addicts, no longer in danger of going to prison, have been able to get the help they need.

...

Not everyone agrees with this analysis. The rate of people reporting drug use in Portugal is, in fact, increasing — and some say alarmingly so. Others argue that it’s hard to draw lessons from Portugal’s experiment because the nation increased access to treatment at the same time it decriminalized drugs. Many believe that Portugal’s new focus on treatment — and prevention — may have had as much, if not more, to do with its success than its policy of decriminalization.

...

The number of problematic drug users in the country has declined — from about 100,000 in the mid-1990s to 60,000 today, Goulão said. The proportion of drug-related offenders in the nation’s prison system has dropped from 44 percent in 1999 to 21 percent two years ago, and the number of prisoners reporting prior heroin use has also declined — from 44 to 30 percent, suggesting, in general, a criminal population less hooked on drugs.

But the numbers aren’t all positive. According to the latest report by the European Monitoring Center for Drugs and Drug Addiction, the number of Portuguese aged 15 to 64 who have ever tried illegal drugs has climbed from 7.8 percent in 2001 to 12 percent in 2007. The percentage of people who have tried cannabis, cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, ecstasy, and LSD all increased in that time frame. Cannabis use, according to the drug report, has gone up from 7.6 to 11.7 percent. Heroin use jumped from 0.7 to 1.1 percent, and cocaine use nearly doubled — from 0.9 to 1.9 percent. In other words, said Keith Humphreys, a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University, the changes in Portugal have had a somewhat expected outcome: More people are trying drugs.

...

What’s most relevant, she said, is not the percentage of people reporting using drugs at some point over some course of their lifetime, but the percentage of people reporting using drugs in the past year. “That’s going to be affecting the government and communities now,” she said. And here, the increase of Portuguese reporting illicit drug use is much smaller — up from 3.4 percent in 2001 to 3.7 in 2007.
What interests me is that Portugal's results can, as the article says, support the arguments of both legalizers and prohibitionists. The one thing that seems clear is that treating drug users is more effective than incarcerating them.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Smoove_B »

New bill would end federal prohibition:
Members of Congress will bring forth a bill Thursday that supporters say is the first ever introduced to end federal law's blanket prohibition of marijuana.

The legislation -- authored by Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., and Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas -- would limit the federal government's role in marijuana enforcement to cross-border or interstate smuggling, letting people legally grow, use or sell marijuana in states that allow it without fear of federal prosecution.

The bill's original co-sponsors include Reps. John Conyers, D-Mich.; Steve Cohen, D-Tenn.; Jared Polis, D-Colo.; and Barbara Lee, D-Oakland.
Our Governor has indefinitely suspended our program to dispense medical marijuana in NJ until the Feds provide to him in writing a guarantee that anyone involved in the program wouldn't be prosecuted.

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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by msduncan »

Has anyone run the numbers on the health costs associated with opening up a ton of people to smoking marijuana legally?

Haven't we just endured a two decade long campaign from the left against 'Big Tobacco' with the argument that inhaling smoke into your lungs and creating secondary smoke was bad for peoples' health and that it drove health insurance higher?

And don't give me that shit about marijuana smoke being magically better or less bad for you than cigarette smoke. Inhaling smoke is inhaling smoke.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by silverjon »

I've never known anyone that didn't smoke pot because it was illegal, only because they didn't want to, often because they don't want to smoke anything.

Health care costs might go up a bit, but how much would your justice system save?
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

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silverjon wrote:I've never known anyone that didn't smoke pot because it was illegal
I don't smoke pot because it's illegal. I've never done a formal poll of non pot smokers but I suspect I'm not alone even if we are a minority. Being illegal, pot makes me paranoid, it's something I can't just go out and buy, something I can't go out smoke in peace, and I actually have to worry about losing my job over it.

I'm all for legalizing pot and I'd smoke it if it were legal. Not so much socially, it makes me stupid and gets me lost in my own head, but I'd use it, essentially self prescribing as a pain killer and sleeping aid. Others I know that do not smoke pot now, I would bet would smoke pot socially if it were legal.

Edit: A friend of mine once said "never break more than one law at a time." and I usually have better laws to break than being stoned.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by silverjon »

Ok, I have known people who didn't smoke because of a company drug policy, but that's typically a workplace impairment issue (like, a lot of them drive for a living), not because of the classification of any specific substance.

Regardless, the question of the offset between healthcare and the direct costs of dealing with keeping it criminalized stands.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by $iljanus »

msduncan wrote:Has anyone run the numbers on the health costs associated with opening up a ton of people to smoking marijuana legally?

Haven't we just endured a two decade long campaign from the left against 'Big Tobacco' with the argument that inhaling smoke into your lungs and creating secondary smoke was bad for peoples' health and that it drove health insurance higher?

And don't give me that shit about marijuana smoke being magically better or less bad for you than cigarette smoke. Inhaling smoke is inhaling smoke.
It seems that it all comes down to additives. Here's a link to a 2006 WaPo article about a study looking at cigarette smokers, marijuana smokers and cancer rates. The "magic" may be the THC in marijuana smoke.

Study Finds No Cancer-Marijuana Connection

I do want to track down that study and actually read the published results though. And see if there's any later studies that have contrary findings.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Exodor »

There's also the question of volume. In general cigarette smokers inhale a LOT more smoke during the course of a day than pot smokers.

Even the stoniest stoners I knew in college couldn't smoke a "pack a day" worth of pot.
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by LordMortis »

I wonder how much health care cost increases due to smoking will be balanced by people self medicating with pot, seeing doctors less and taking prescription pain killers less... which would then be balanced by people not seeing doctors when they should because they mask symptom of illness by getting high...
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Brian »

silverjon wrote:I've never known anyone that didn't smoke pot because it was illegal,
Hello.

I would smoke pot if it was legal. Because it's currently not I feel that the risk outweighs the effort to obtain it and smoke it.

However if I am with somebody that has some and am in an environment where risk of detection is minimal then yes, I will smoke some.

Last time was two years ago.
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Post by Exodor »

LordMortis wrote:I wonder how much health care cost increases due to smoking will be balanced by people self medicating with pot, seeing doctors less and taking prescription pain killers less... which would then be balanced by people not seeing doctors when they should because they mask symptom of illness by getting high...
I would expect the increased health care costs would be more than offset by reduced enforcement and incarceration costs.
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Post by silverjon »

Brian wrote:
silverjon wrote:I've never known anyone that didn't smoke pot because it was illegal,
Hello.
pleezda meetcha

I think Canada is likely just demographically different in this respect. Or I exclusively hang out with bad people and/or those wouldn't use drugs whether they were legal or not (it's both).
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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malichai11
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by malichai11 »

Brian wrote:
silverjon wrote:I've never known anyone that didn't smoke pot because it was illegal,
Hello.

I would smoke pot if it was legal. Because it's currently not I feel that the risk outweighs the effort to obtain it and smoke it.
Same here.
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noxiousdog
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Re: Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by noxiousdog »

Exodor wrote:There's also the question of volume. In general cigarette smokers inhale a LOT more smoke during the course of a day than pot smokers.

Even the stoniest stoners I knew in college couldn't smoke a "pack a day" worth of pot.
This is the most likely answer. Its the same theory as why cigar and pipe smokers don't show significant risks.

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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Defiant
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Defiant »

Didn't want to start a new thread, so *bump*
A long-term study has concluded for the first time that regular marijuana use before age 18 causes significant and lasting harm to intelligence, attention span and memory.
The study, which tracked more than 1,000 New Zealanders from birth to 38, found an average eight-point decline in IQ among "persistent, dependent" users of marijuana younger than 18.
although the study doesn't state what dosage causes mental decline, it appears to show that people who began smoking marijuana as adults didn't show similar mental declines.
link
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Kraken
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Re: will marijuana ever be legal???

Post by Kraken »

Making it harder for minors to get is a good argument for legalizing it. Black market dealers never check IDs.
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