FCC and Net Neutrality

[Rip]

I think it depends greatly on just how fast it needs to be before you call it broadband. I certainly don't see any reason every person in the country shouldn't have access to at least basic DSL. It isn't that much harder to deliver than just a POTS(Plain Old Telephone Service) line.

[GreenGoo]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

How is electricity a necessity?

I personally don't think broadband is a necessity yet, but we're getting there. Eventually it will be. Sure people can make due with slow or no internet access, but people can make due with a wood stove and candles too.

[Isgrimnur]

I think it depends greatly on just how fast it needs to be before you call it broadband. I certainly don't see any reason every person in the country shouldn't have access to at least basic DSL. It isn't that much harder to deliver than just a POTS(Plain Old Telephone Service) line.

25 Mbps, up from 2.

[Rip]

I think it depends greatly on just how fast it needs to be before you call it broadband. I certainly don't see any reason every person in the country shouldn't have access to at least basic DSL. It isn't that much harder to deliver than just a POTS(Plain Old Telephone Service) line.

25 Mbps, up from 2.

Sure but that doesn't mean they intend to make sure everyone in rural areas has 25Mbps internet. They just say they are expanding telcom access. Some of which is broadband. They have already been doing this.

"We're funding broadband deployment with USF, but we're not bringing broadband into the contribution base," said Matt Wood, policy director at Free Press. "That's just not sustainable long term."

Either way as long as the money is used for expanding services to where they otherwise would not reach it is all good. As long as they don't make it a slush fund for paying for other stupid crap.

[noxiousdog]

How is a telephone a necessity?

To call for police, fire, ambulance?

[noxiousdog]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

How is electricity a necessity?

I personally don't think broadband is a necessity yet, but we're getting there. Eventually it will be. Sure people can make due with slow or no internet access, but people can make due with a wood stove and candles too.

To cook? To have heat?

[Pyperkub]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

I'm a sysadmin. It most definitely is not a luxury to me - I'm like the guy who comcast screwed over when he bought a house in part based on conversations with Comcast that he would have broadband access, but didn't get it in writing and had to turn around and sell.

However, I'll answer your broader question. Historically the ONLY thing that the founders dictated the Federal Government do was to establish an information exchange system for everyone - the Mail. It and the Census (another information vehicle) were the 2 of the foremost primary domestic objectives for the Constitutional Federal Government.

There is also the matter of the fee which this will be based on - the *already accepted* telephone fees for supporting rural users. Stare Decisis and all that. You may not agree with it, but in this community in which we all are a part, it is already decided.

[Kraken]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

How is electricity a necessity?

I personally don't think broadband is a necessity yet, but we're getting there. Eventually it will be. Sure people can make due with slow or no internet access, but people can make due with a wood stove and candles too.

Would you open a business in a community that doesn't have broadband access?

WiredWest is tackling the problem in rural MA, with government support. It is absolutely necessary to participate in a knowledge economy.

[noxiousdog]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

I'm a sysadmin. It most definitely is not a luxury to me - I'm like the guy who comcast screwed over when he bought a house in part based on conversations with Comcast that he would have broadband access, but didn't get it in writing and had to turn around and sell.

However, I'll answer your broader question. Historically the ONLY thing that the founders dictated the Federal Government do was to establish an information exchange system for everyone - the Mail. It and the Census (another information vehicle) were the 2 of the foremost primary domestic objectives for the Constitutional Federal Government.

There is also the matter of the fee which this will be based on - the *already accepted* telephone fees for supporting rural users. Stare Decisis and all that. You may not agree with it, but in this community in which we all are a part, it is already decided.

You don't need broadband to exchange mail.

And no, it was annexed. It's exactly the reason most people were against Net Neutrality. Not because they didn't want competition, but that they didn't want increased taxes and regulation. We were told, no no no. That has nothing to do with Net Neutrality. But clearly it does.

[noxiousdog]

It is absolutely necessary to participate in a knowledge economy.

I don't even know what that means.

[Rip]

At least in this instance the taxes are returned to the taxpayers directly in needed infrastructure. At least the money won't be spent on bridges to nowhere.

[GreenGoo]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

How is electricity a necessity?

I personally don't think broadband is a necessity yet, but we're getting there. Eventually it will be. Sure people can make due with slow or no internet access, but people can make due with a wood stove and candles too.

To cook? To have heat?

You can have those things without electricity. I thought I made that clear by referencing wood stoves and candles.

I'm sure the transition to a fully electrified society took awhile too but here you are suggesting that electricity is a necessity. It doesn't take much imagination to see that decent access to the internet is important and at some point, even a necessity.

At least that's how I feel about it. At this point I think I'd miss the internet more than I'd miss electricity (if it were possible to have internet access without electricity of course. Some way to charge a phone might be enough).

[GreenGoo]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

How is electricity a necessity?

I personally don't think broadband is a necessity yet, but we're getting there. Eventually it will be. Sure people can make due with slow or no internet access, but people can make due with a wood stove and candles too.

Would you open a business in a community that doesn't have broadband access?

Maybe. What kind of business?

[Alefroth]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

To call for police, fire, ambulance?

[Pyperkub]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

How is electricity a necessity?

I personally don't think broadband is a necessity yet, but we're getting there. Eventually it will be. Sure people can make due with slow or no internet access, but people can make due with a wood stove and candles too.

Would you open a business in a community that doesn't have broadband access?

Maybe. What kind of business?

Broadband access

[LordMortis]

I think it depends greatly on just how fast it needs to be before you call it broadband. I certainly don't see any reason every person in the country shouldn't have access to at least basic DSL. It isn't that much harder to deliver than just a POTS(Plain Old Telephone Service) line.

It kind of is.

http://www.dslreports.com/faq/4676

OTOH, satellite/microwave Internet ought to get to just about anywhere.

But then it feels like running cable is often a scam as well. If you can run a power line and telephone line then you can run a thick copper cable.

[Rip]

I am more than aware of what is required to run DSL. Again it isn't that much harder. Is it harder, sure. The difference between that and services like fiber/cable is substantial.

Newer DSL versions have improved distances and the prices of DSLAMs and support equipment has improved a lot. Not to mention the national fiber network is much better so bandwidth from the DSLAM upstream is much less of an issue than it has been historically.

[Kraken]

It is absolutely necessary to participate in a knowledge economy.

I don't even know what that means.

Education, medicine, biotech, software, robotics, advanced manufacturing, media, communications -- all rely on the speedy transfer of large amounts of information.

Maybe. What kind of business?

You could run a restaurant or a muffler shop or a shoe store without paying much heed to the internet and you might do just fine. But communities that lack broadband are slowly shrinking as new families avoid moving there, big employers pass them by, and young adults who have the means to do so leave for greener pastures. I wouldn't want to open any kind of business in a contracting community with a dubious future, any more than I would voluntarily live in such a place.

OK, maybe a nursing home.

Broadband isn't a magic bullet that turns boondocks into boomtowns, but it at least gives people one less reason to avoid them. It's becoming as necessary for modern households as power lines and sanitation.

Would you want to retire to a place where you can't get high-speed internet or streaming entertainment? I linked two stories about western MA because my wife and I want to retire out there in 10 years. As much as the area appeals to us, we will not consider living anywhere without reliable services. I might consider swapping a sewer line for a septic system. I might put up with propane tanks instead of a gas line. But DSL and satellite TV? Nope, not happening. Today that rules out huge swaths of the Berkshires. Thanks to the initiatives described in my links, it should be much less of an issue 10 years down the road.

[RLMullen]

How in the world is broadband a necessity?

In fact, if this is the route they take, I will NOT be supportive of the next "let's regulate utilities" job. This is ridiculous.

How is electricity a necessity?

I personally don't think broadband is a necessity yet, but we're getting there. Eventually it will be. Sure people can make due with slow or no internet access, but people can make due with a wood stove and candles too.

To cook? To have heat?

Have you never heard of this thing called fire?

If you don't think that broadband access is a necessity then you either lack perspective or you're trolling.

[noxiousdog]

Have you never heard of this thing called fire?

If you don't think that broadband access is a necessity then you either lack perspective or you're trolling.

Then explain me this... if broadband access is a necessity (which is bullshit) how can a pc not be a necessity?

Honestly, netflix and youtube are not necessities.

What do you get out of broadband that makes it required for basic life?

[RLMullen]

You could run a restaurant or a muffler shop or a shoe store without paying much heed to the internet and you might do just fine.

If you aren't going to take credit/debit cards then you won't be running a successful business.

OK, maybe a nursing home.

Having just placed a parent into a nursing home... literally three days ago... I'm all too familiar with the amount of information that had to be transmitted and processed. There is no way you are going to process all of that information effectively without broadband.

[RLMullen]

Have you never heard of this thing called fire?

If you don't think that broadband access is a necessity then you either lack perspective or you're trolling.

Then explain me this... if broadband access is a necessity (which is bullshit) how can a pc not be a necessity?

Honestly, netflix and youtube are not necessities.

What do you get out of broadband that makes it required for basic life?

Communication of information -- something that is a necessity in the 21st century modern society. If you are going to totally discount the effect of the overall technical state of society in determining what is considered a necessity then literally *nothing* that we gain from such progress can be considered a necessity... not electricity, not phone service, not motorized transportation, not access to modern medicine, not housing, not even groceries.

[noxiousdog]

Communication of information -- something that is a necessity in the 21st century modern society. If you are going to totally discount the effect of the overall technical state of society in determining what is considered a necessity then literally *nothing* that we gain from such progress can be considered a necessity... not electricity, not phone service, not motorized transportation, not access to modern medicine, not housing, not even groceries.

I don't see how the communication of information requires broadband.

And you didn't answer my questions. If personal computers aren't considered a necessity, how can broadband?

[geezer]

Communication of information -- something that is a necessity in the 21st century modern society. If you are going to totally discount the effect of the overall technical state of society in determining what is considered a necessity then literally *nothing* that we gain from such progress can be considered a necessity... not electricity, not phone service, not motorized transportation, not access to modern medicine, not housing, not even groceries.

I don't see how the communication of information requires broadband.

And you didn't answer my questions. If personal computers aren't considered a necessity, how can broadband?

I'd absolutely consider a PC and broadband to be a necessity for some people, depending on career. Are you seriously arguing otherwise?

[noxiousdog]

I'd absolutely consider a PC and broadband to be a necessity for some people, depending on career. Are you seriously arguing otherwise?

We aren't talking about career, we're talking about a tax levied to make sure every American has broadband (and a pc).

[GreenGoo]

Broadband is for communication. That doesn't require a PC. Tablets, phones, tvs, game consoles, they all can do that job.

In any case, what does it matter if a PC is considered a necessity or not? There are lots of things that are necessities that we fund, and others that we do not. Whether a PC falls into one of those categories or not doesn't change the fact that access to information in a speedy fashion is becoming more and more of a necessity.

If I choose to go off the grid (with solar perhaps), does that stop electricity from being a necessity for my neighbours?

It doesn't really matter what we think anyway. The next couple of generations won't be able to imagine a life without a constant tether to the internet, and at that time broadband access will become a de facto necessity. There won't be any debate, it just will be.

[Kraken]

You could run a restaurant or a muffler shop or a shoe store without paying much heed to the internet and you might do just fine.

If you aren't going to take credit/debit cards then you won't be running a successful business.

OK, maybe a nursing home.

Having just placed a parent into a nursing home... literally three days ago... I'm all too familiar with the amount of information that had to be transmitted and processed. There is no way you are going to process all of that information effectively without broadband.

First, congratudolences on that. It's a huge and difficult transition.

Credit card acceptance needs to happen almost instantaneously, but the merchant's connection doesn't enter into that. The action starts with the merchant's web host and then pingpongs between banks -- all of which need broadband, obviously. I speak for online merchants, but even an old-school POS terminal only needs basic connectivity to send the few k's of data that get the ball rolling.

[Isgrimnur]

You've got 60 days to read the rules before they take effect.

[Pyperkub]

Have you never heard of this thing called fire?

If you don't think that broadband access is a necessity then you either lack perspective or you're trolling.

Then explain me this... if broadband access is a necessity (which is bullshit) how can a pc not be a necessity?

Honestly, netflix and youtube are not necessities.

What do you get out of broadband that makes it required for basic life?

Make the case about telephones and mail first (or not), and then let's see if broadband fits too. Can you write a narrow enough justification for the first 2 which won't include the third over the next 10-20 years without tying yourself up in legalistic linguistic knots?

Or is your case that communication in general shouldn't be covered whatsoever? Which has already been decided in the United States.

Revisiting that is an entirely different conversation (perhaps worth having, but definitely different).
Remember that all of these companies have been granted some sort of monopoly power in exchange for serving the public good and gaining rights of way, spectrum auctions, etc. just like the phone companies, water companies, power companies, etc.

[noxiousdog]

Make the case about telephones and mail first (or not), and then let's see if broadband fits too. Can you write a narrow enough justification for the first 2 which won't include the third over the next 10-20 years without tying yourself up in legalistic linguistic knots?

Or is your case that communication in general shouldn't be covered whatsoever? Which has already been decided in the United States.

Revisiting that is an entirely different conversation (perhaps worth having, but definitely different).

Telephones are for emergency communication (fire, ambulance, police), and mail is for essential (and legal) communication.

And I noticed you dodged the pc argument as well.

[Pyperkub]

Make the case about telephones and mail first (or not), and then let's see if broadband fits too. Can you write a narrow enough justification for the first 2 which won't include the third over the next 10-20 years without tying yourself up in legalistic linguistic knots?

Or is your case that communication in general shouldn't be covered whatsoever? Which has already been decided in the United States.

Revisiting that is an entirely different conversation (perhaps worth having, but definitely different).

Telephones are for emergency communication (fire, ambulance, police), and mail is for essential (and legal) communication.

And I noticed you dodged the pc argument as well.

There are a large amount of legal communications which are now electronic-only. Health Care is also moving that direction - which can (and eventually will) be emergency services.

As to the PC - you need a phone to use a telephone line, are we going to require everyone to have a phone now?

No, we don't (though we do provide subsidies, and there are pc's which are cheaper than phones now). We just require that there be a line and access. Ma Bell used to rent them like cable boxes for extraordinary profits, just like cable companies do...

[noxiousdog]

When those things are not only online only, but also require broadband, let me know.

[gbasden]

Telephones are for emergency communication (fire, ambulance, police), and mail is for essential (and legal) communication.

And I noticed you dodged the pc argument as well.

We don't force people to have telephone service, but we push to make sure it is available. If you want telephone service, you still need to buy your own phone. Similarly, we should strive to make affordable broadband access available for everyone. They would still have to get their own device.

You seriously think that access to the Internet is unimportant at this point in time?

Edit - Beaten by GreenGoo. Teach me to answer a work call while composing my answer.

[gbasden]

When those things are not only online only, but also require broadband, let me know.

Have you attempted to access the modern web from a 56k modem? it is essentially unusable for most sites.

[Pyperkub]

When those things are not only online only, but also require broadband, let me know.

Have you attempted to access the modern web from a 56k modem? it is essentially unusable for most sites.

And you still need an ISP, unless you know someone running a modem bank.

[Holman]

The economy doesn't run on people accessing the internet at the library. You can ask them yourself.

[El Guapo]

I don't care whether or not broadband is considered a "necessity" or not. It's important enough to the modern economy and modern life that it seems to me to be good public policy for the government to support widespread broadband adoption (including for those people who would otherwise struggle to afford it), regardless.

[Enough]

When those things are not only online only, but also require broadband, let me know.

I would like to shore up the ready access to broadband for American competitiveness reasons. It's bad enough that countries like South Korea have massively leap-frogged us in capacity thanks to planting their infrastructure much later than us historically, I don't want to continue to fall behind where we should absolutely be leading the pack.

[RLMullen]

And I noticed you dodged the pc argument as well.

There is no "pc argument" to dodge. As others have already noted... and this is a point that YOU conveniently ignored... a PC is not the only device capable of connecting to the internet. In fact if you take the "PC" out of the equation then broadband is even more necessary as most other devices are thin clients and quite simply require an internet connection to function.

[noxiousdog]

And I noticed you dodged the pc argument as well.

There is no "pc argument" to dodge. As others have already noted... and this is a point that YOU conveniently ignored... a PC is not the only device capable of connecting to the internet. In fact if you take the "PC" out of the equation then broadband is even more necessary as most other devices are thin clients and quite simply require an internet connection to function.

I don't even know what that means.

All I've heard is that places are going "online only" and so people have to have broadband to pay their bills and get kriminal sopinas, and something about a magic internet economy that requires broadband at every farmhouse.

It's kind of funny how against corporate subsidies you guys are, until it's something you want.

Regardless, this is a philosophical argument. You're not going to convince me and the way it was done was bullshit.