New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

hepcat wrote:Just an aside, but while perusing the pictures on Al Jazeera's site, I could not find any photos of protesters which included women in them. I wonder if they're being told explicitly to stay out of this by their peers.
Newsweek wrote:The pro-democracy protest is the biggest demonstration in Egypt in years. And women are increasingly taking part in the politics of the street.

...


During Friday’s mass demonstrations, women also participated, vocally and visibly, in what became a brutal standoff with authorities. (Police reportedly used tear-gas, rubber-bullets and water-cannon against the protesters.)

Sara Abu Bakr, a journalist and publisher in Cairo, was surprised by the lack of sexual harassment, for which Egypt is infamous, especially during large public events. “This was supposed to be sexual molestation day, and nothing happened,” she said. Several activists in Cairo reported the same.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Enough »

Wow, Egyptian police are siding with the protesters.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Apparently turning of the internet wasn't the best idea as everyone, suddenly without Facebook, Twitter and WoW, took to the streets.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Enough »

Yeah, that might even get Americans out on the street.

And I just read that there are thousands forming a human shield around Egypt's National Museum. I had not even thought about that yet, glad they obviously are and hope it survives.

Edit: Mubarak dismisses government and says he will name a new government on Saturday.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by AWS260 »

Mubarak announced that he's dismissing his cabinet and appointing a new one. It's tough to see that satisfying the protesters, since the person they really want dismissed is him.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Rip »

Mubarek is done.

It is my opinion this is the first major player to fall into "The New World Order". Not the one you have heard about but one that consume all into it's fold. The world full of nations actually controlled by their people. The last one to fall will be NK. The internet and unrestricted communication in general will lead to all people taking control of their destiny.

This is a young/new generation versus old one revolution, that hopefully won't be saddled with religious bigotry. That is what went wrong in Iran by at least some fault of our own. hopefully we as a nation will welcome this and refrain from the fear mongering that Egypt will become another Iran because of this. I cannot believe that the people of a nation would choose that path, and obviously Iran isn't ruled by it's "people".

It could have been but our resistance to change empowered those most opposed to us and they seized the opportunity. We should be cautious lest become seen as in opposition to the concepts that the youth are the future and that there is an inherent human right to self rule.

I thought Obama walked the line brilliantly so far, but if the internet isn't restored and steps made to replace Mubarek within a reasonable period over the weekend he must take a much harder stand on Monday.

Anyhow those are my thoughts on the situation and I haven't removed my tin-foil hat for a few days so I don't think anyone has stolen my thoughts.....yet.

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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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The revolution will be no re-run, brothers;
The revolution will be live.


Graphic pictures within, you have been warned!
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Kraken »

Some of those photos are amazing. Hard to imagine Mubarak putting that genie back in its bottle.

I read somewhere that the Egyptian military is a law unto itself, and will determine the ultimate outcome of all this. A regime has to know that its days are limited when there are tanks in the streets.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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AWS260 wrote:Mubarak announced that he's dismissing his cabinet and appointing a new one. It's tough to see that satisfying the protesters, since the person they really want dismissed is him.

Hmmm don't think that appointing your Intelligence Chief to the Vice Presidency is a positive sign for 'Reform'
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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I dunno. Protests have gotten this far and have been reversed before - most recently the Green protests in Iran. Mubarak *might* be done, but it's far too soon to say.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Defiant »

Would you like to start a revolution?

Yes, let's get this revolution started! (1 turn of Anarchy)

No, the old ways are best.

Let's see the Big Picture...
The revolution has begun!!!
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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El Guapo wrote:I dunno. Protests have gotten this far and have been reversed before - most recently the Green protests in Iran. Mubarak *might* be done, but it's far too soon to say.
Stating the obvious of course but it all comes down to the willingness to use force. The regime in Iran had no qualms about using force on the demonstrators there so the protests were crushed. If Mubarak is willing to use force, and the military/security forces are willing to carry out his orders, then it's game over. If not, then he's done for.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by msduncan »

/Tunisia
/Yemen
/Egypt

If we see:

/Saudi Arabia
/Iran
/Libya

Then you will see this:

/Israel taking out Iran nuclear facilities while chaos prevents action
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Holman »

msduncan wrote:...
Then you will see this:

/Israel taking out Iran nuclear facilities while chaos prevents action
A big question in all this unrest is whether the newly reformed/replaced/retrenched regimes be more anti-Israel than before. Anyone guess yet?
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Rip »

Holman wrote:
msduncan wrote:...
Then you will see this:

/Israel taking out Iran nuclear facilities while chaos prevents action
A big question in all this unrest is whether the newly reformed/replaced/retrenched regimes be more anti-Israel than before. Anyone guess yet?
I think that depends largely on us. Israel is doing the right thing by keeping their mouths shut. The key is whether we back up our rhetoric on supporting democracy by action. We often find ourselves talking the talk, now the question is do we walk the walk. If we do then I don't think the radicals will achieve control of these places. However if we allow the oppressors to deny the freedoms the people seek they will see us as the enemy. That will leave they people of these places with the only logical choice. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Monday will be a VERY important day politically.

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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Kraken »

Holman wrote:
msduncan wrote:...
Then you will see this:

/Israel taking out Iran nuclear facilities while chaos prevents action
A big question in all this unrest is whether the newly reformed/replaced/retrenched regimes be more anti-Israel than before. Anyone guess yet?
I don't know how the Egyptian people feel about Israel. Their governments have been at peace since Anwar Sadat and the Camp David accords. Mubarak is Sadat's heir. What happens if that continuity is broken?

We Westerners prop up secular despots if they keep the fundies at bay. This columnist argues that Islamic governments will be more stable in the Middle East.
To most Western thinkers, suggesting a role for religion in government seems to be sailing against the wind of history. Europe’s rise to industrial greatness, democracy, and global power came in the wake of deliberate secularization. Part of the enduring appeal of the American dream is its religious tolerance. Russia, China, and the rest of East Asia have all flourished economically, if undemocratically, under secular rule.

Yet the examples in the Arab world look very different. The Middle East and North Africa is the world region most lacking in democratic government, tempting policy makers to imagine that positive change, as it has elsewhere, will go hand-in-hand with secularization. But the Middle East is also the origin and heartland of Islam, a faith sustained in part through its ability to serve as a political order as well as a religious belief. Unlike Americans, who may be deeply religious but are also raised to believe in separate realms of church and state, many quite moderate Muslims see nothing strange in the notion of a government fully infused with religious purpose.

Survey research in the Arab world, such as the University of Michigan’s Arab Barometer project, has found that respondents generally consider themselves Muslims above other markers of identity, including national citizenship. As a result, Islam isn’t just a feature of a national government; for many citizens, it may be as important as the idea of the nation itself. By forcing Islam out of state politics, as Tunisia did, the government can actually reduce its own legitimacy in the eyes of the people, leaving it vulnerable and forcing it to lean more heavily on the machinery of a police state.
I don't know how religious the Egyptian people are...I do know that the main opposition is a banned Islamic party. My sense is that Egypt is sufficiently modern that a theocracy there would not be a throwback like the Taliban.

If something resembling the caliphate (a transnational Islamic state) emerges from all these falling dominoes, that could be very bad news for Israel and US interests.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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Here's a Reuter's site that's 'live blogging' from Egypt. Mostly pictures, but also provides intersting links to new developments
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Grifman »

Holman wrote:
msduncan wrote:...
Then you will see this:

/Israel taking out Iran nuclear facilities while chaos prevents action
A big question in all this unrest is whether the newly reformed/replaced/retrenched regimes be more anti-Israel than before. Anyone guess yet?
More anti-Israel by far. Most Egyptians are not happy with the current regime's stance on Israel.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by msduncan »

Grifman wrote:
Holman wrote:
msduncan wrote:...
Then you will see this:

/Israel taking out Iran nuclear facilities while chaos prevents action
A big question in all this unrest is whether the newly reformed/replaced/retrenched regimes be more anti-Israel than before. Anyone guess yet?
More anti-Israel by far. Most Egyptians are not happy with the current regime's stance on Israel.
Agree. This whole thing is terrible by any measure or standard.

This is paramount to Iran in the 1970's.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by El Guapo »

It depends. In each country there are four realistic possibilities:

1) The current government holds onto power;
2) A democratic government comes to power;
3) An islamist theocracy comes to power;
4) A military coup overthrows either the current government or a transition government.

Any of #1, #2, or #4 probably won't significantly change the government's posture towards Israel. Public opinion in most Arab countries isn't terribly fond of Israel, but a democratic government is unlikely to be terribly militant and so most likely will continue awkwardly co-existing with Israel. Only an Iran-style islamic theocracy coming to power would make the government substantively more anti-Israel (and even then, that only has significant ramifications if it's Egypt).

From what I've read it sounds like a democratic government is a realistic possiblity in Tunisia. Egypt is uncertain; on the one hand the young protesters seem to be more secular and democratic in orientation; on the other hand the Islamic Brotherhood is very well organized in Egypt and has been the main opposition for decades.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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Rip wrote:It is my opinion this is the first major player to fall into "The New World Order". Not the one you have heard about but one that consume all into it's fold. The world full of nations actually controlled by their people. The last one to fall will be NK. The internet and unrestricted communication in general will lead to all people taking control of their destiny.
It's not really likely. There's been a long correlation between strong economies and functional democracies. There are outliers (India was a democracy before its economy caught up), but for the most part people who are just trying to survive day to day are not that concerned about who their leaders are. Yemen, for example, is not going to be a nation controlled by its people any time soon - it's too damn poor.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by El Guapo »

Yup. By contrast, Tunisia's economy apparently has been doing pretty well for the past decade or so, so it's economy is actually fairly well off (amongst third world countries, anyhow). Which is one of the reasons a democratic outcome seems reasonably likely for it.

Yemen is not only very poor but can't even really keep control of its own territory. It's hard to see how it winds up with much of a functional government at all, whether its democratic or not.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Rip »

ImLawBoy wrote:
Rip wrote:It is my opinion this is the first major player to fall into "The New World Order". Not the one you have heard about but one that consume all into it's fold. The world full of nations actually controlled by their people. The last one to fall will be NK. The internet and unrestricted communication in general will lead to all people taking control of their destiny.
It's not really likely. There's been a long correlation between strong economies and functional democracies. There are outliers (India was a democracy before its economy caught up), but for the most part people who are just trying to survive day to day are not that concerned about who their leaders are. Yemen, for example, is not going to be a nation controlled by its people any time soon - it's too damn poor.
Well it would seem the people of Egypt are concerned about who leads them. Perhaps it isn't an easy thing but I think it is inevitable for every country. If we don't believe that then why bother making so much noise about how we are spreading democracy? I think democracy can spread itself as information and communications technology evolves. The real problem now is that by trying to stifle the ones that we fear will not fall in line behind us, we are actually creating democracies that WILL be opposed to us.

At this moment it could go either way as far as whether the people their will be US friendly. However if we continue to sit on our hands and bite our tongues there will be no doubt which way it will go. We have tried to stop the people of countries from becoming self-ruling before and without a single exception it has not worked out well. I would suggest for once we try supporting democracy rather than speaking as though we are. Knowing how much everyone here hates a hypocrite I am surprised so many seem so afraid of a free Egypt.

Maybe that is why so many disliked GWB, you didn't really believe that free nations makes for a safer world. Just for good bumper stickers.

For shame!

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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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Rip wrote:Well it would seem the people of Egypt are concerned about who leads them. Perhaps it isn't an easy thing but I think it is inevitable for every country. If we don't believe that then why bother making so much noise about how we are spreading democracy? I think democracy can spread itself as information and communications technology evolves. The real problem now is that by trying to stifle the ones that we fear will not fall in line behind us, we are actually creating democracies that WILL be opposed to us.
I never said that Egypt won't turn into a democracy. I don't know a lot about their economy, but my guess is that they're a lot more developed than many countries, and could support a democracy. My objection was to your statement that all nations would be run by their people. It's just not realistic or supported by history.
Rip wrote:At this moment it could go either way as far as whether the people their will be US friendly. However if we continue to sit on our hands and bite our tongues there will be no doubt which way it will go. We have tried to stop the people of countries from becoming self-ruling before and without a single exception it has not worked out well. I would suggest for once we try supporting democracy rather than speaking as though we are. Knowing how much everyone here hates a hypocrite I am surprised so many seem so afraid of a free Egypt.
Who are you lecturing here? Are we sitting on our hands and biting our tongues? Are we trying to stop the people of Egypt from becoming self-ruling? People are expressing concerns about the type of government that might arise from this unrest, but I don't see anyone saying we should prevent it or try to prop up Mubarak any longer.
Rip wrote:Maybe that is why so many disliked GWB, you didn't really believe that free nations makes for a safer world. Just for good bumper stickers.

For shame!
I didn't like Bush for a myriad of reasons, but his policy of free nations wasn't one of them (his methods, well . . . .). You should really save your lectures and scolding tones for people who earn it.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Rip »

ImLawBoy wrote:
Rip wrote:Well it would seem the people of Egypt are concerned about who leads them. Perhaps it isn't an easy thing but I think it is inevitable for every country. If we don't believe that then why bother making so much noise about how we are spreading democracy? I think democracy can spread itself as information and communications technology evolves. The real problem now is that by trying to stifle the ones that we fear will not fall in line behind us, we are actually creating democracies that WILL be opposed to us.
I never said that Egypt won't turn into a democracy. I don't know a lot about their economy, but my guess is that they're a lot more developed than many countries, and could support a democracy. My objection was to your statement that all nations would be run by their people. It's just not realistic or supported by history.
Democracy wasn't supported by history until some colonists gave it a go, while the world scoffed at them. We can't stand on the fence on this one, it simply shows that we are as hypocritical as we feared those wikileaks documents would make us look.
Rip wrote:At this moment it could go either way as far as whether the people their will be US friendly. However if we continue to sit on our hands and bite our tongues there will be no doubt which way it will go. We have tried to stop the people of countries from becoming self-ruling before and without a single exception it has not worked out well. I would suggest for once we try supporting democracy rather than speaking as though we are. Knowing how much everyone here hates a hypocrite I am surprised so many seem so afraid of a free Egypt.
Who are you lecturing here? Are we sitting on our hands and biting our tongues? Are we trying to stop the people of Egypt from becoming self-ruling? People are expressing concerns about the type of government that might arise from this unrest, but I don't see anyone saying we should prevent it or try to prop up Mubarak any longer.
In this case when I say we I refer to the action or lack thereof on the part of our government. If we miss this opportunity to be a leader in spreading democracy we will render ourselves locked into the image that many unfortunately already see us as. Which is the selfish big bully who would deny others what we claim as undeniable human rights.
Rip wrote:Maybe that is why so many disliked GWB, you didn't really believe that free nations makes for a safer world. Just for good bumper stickers.

For shame!
I didn't like Bush for a myriad of reasons, but his policy of free nations wasn't one of them (his methods, well . . . .). You should really save your lectures and scolding tones for people who earn it.
Right now we as a nation are well on our way to earning it. I am not trying to scold anyone here necessarily however all I hear anyone here talking about is caution and doubt. We should be IMHO rejoicing with the Egyptian people and supporting the effort in the strongest way feasible. I for one have long been skeptical of this type of thing happening this soon, but now that it has the last thing I think we should do is ride the brakes.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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I also wanted to add that had we supported the people of Iraq more in the times they rose against Saddam we may have avoided the huge costs of many wars and had a more friendly relationship with the people there. In comparison the people of Egypt ARE ready to do the heavy lifting. We need only support them with the same or greater veracity that we have supported their oppressor.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

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CAIRO, Egypt-- We have now been in Cairo for 4 days. In that time we have seen and heard a subtle but real shift in the mood of protestors here.
On Friday, rioters had a clear-cut enemy: the hated police. We as Americans were seen as allies in the cause. They also begged us to relay to Washington and President Obama their wishes that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak should leave.
Although the situation was dangerous on that day, with police clashing with rioters, we did not feel targeted.
On Saturday, the atmosphere changed. Activists had gained attention, won gains, but also suffered casualties.
While President Mubarak had made concessions he was still there. And while President Obama had supportive words for the protestors, he did not call for Mubarak go.
So America was then seen as part of the problem and it has been that way ever since.
U.S. aid to Egypt, both military and social, is seen as propping up the hated regime. The lack of a clear cut backing for the “street” is seen as Washington turning its back on the Egyptian people it has pledged to help.
As we interviewed people on the street, some were happy to get their opinions out to the international media, others wondered openly whether we were “spies,” “agents” of the regime, as well as acting in a hostile manner towards us. Some told others not to talk to us at all.
The widely-aired words from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton Sunday, which also tried to straddle a middle road, did not help matters.
By Monday, amid reports that the White House was looking for some sort of “transition” in Egypt, a moderating message seems to have gotten lost in the din of anti-government protest which is not dying down.
The U.S. will have to speak louder and act more strongly if it wants to get ahead of the throngs here rushing for democracy now.
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2011 ... urnalists/

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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by El Guapo »

We should absolutely take this chance to call for Mubarak to go. Egypt is going to be a democracy one day, either soon via this uprising or later via some other uprising. The question for us is whether they'll be favorable/neutral to us or not. Obviously the more we are seen to back their dictator the less favorably inclined towards us they'll be.

I do wonder whether we're too late in any event, though. We've backed Mubarak more or less since the start of his reign, and Egypt gets the second-largest amount of U.S. foreign aid, after Israel. Calling for Mubarak's departure is a good step, but can that really make up for decades of U.S. support for him? The Bush Administration's Freedom Agenda was a good step, but even then we still heavily supported Mubarak.

This is a lesson in the price we pay in the long-run for supporting dictators. It's no surprise that Eastern Europe remains one of the most pro-American regions in the world, since we opposed their dictators for decades. When and if Iran's government falls the new government there is likely to be pro-American since we oppose their oppressors. In most of the mid-east, where we support the dictators...it's going to be complicated.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by msduncan »

I am inclined to agree with Rip on this one.

Regardless of which government they choose.... Obama is quickly showing his tentative and inexperienced leadership qualities here. This moment is slipping away quickly and we are going to be defined to the Egyptian people as the US that stood behind the dictator instead of the country that assisted the call for freedom (even if that means a government that is less friendly to Israel).

Right now is a crises of inaction from the administration. This could quickly become the biggest disaster of his presidency if he doesn't come out and make a stand.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by ImLawBoy »

Rip wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Rip wrote:Well it would seem the people of Egypt are concerned about who leads them. Perhaps it isn't an easy thing but I think it is inevitable for every country. If we don't believe that then why bother making so much noise about how we are spreading democracy? I think democracy can spread itself as information and communications technology evolves. The real problem now is that by trying to stifle the ones that we fear will not fall in line behind us, we are actually creating democracies that WILL be opposed to us.
I never said that Egypt won't turn into a democracy. I don't know a lot about their economy, but my guess is that they're a lot more developed than many countries, and could support a democracy. My objection was to your statement that all nations would be run by their people. It's just not realistic or supported by history.
Democracy wasn't supported by history until some colonists gave it a go, while the world scoffed at them. We can't stand on the fence on this one, it simply shows that we are as hypocritical as we feared those wikileaks documents would make us look.
Most of the world had no idea what was going on back then, and the colonies were in a decidedly different situation than Egypt is. Once again, though, I never said Egypt couldn't be a democracy. I did say that Yemen won't be a democracy. I will say that Somalia won't be a democracy any time soon. North Korea is an interesting case, because although their economy likely would not support a democracy as it is, getting the ruling family out of there could open things up in a hurry (particularly with the freeing of the border between North and South).

Now, you may want to shift the focus here to the US government response and what the government should be doing, but since you started your "For Shame!" rant in response to my quotation about democracies needing solid economies to flourish, I'm going to call you on the scolding tone which is unwarranted in response to my post.
Rip wrote:I am not trying to scold anyone here necessarily
Then you probably shouldn't end your post by calling out forum posters who disliked GWB and ending with "For shame!"
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by gbasden »

Rip wrote:Democracy wasn't supported by history until some colonists gave it a go, while the world scoffed at them.
Err.....
Democracy is a political form of government in which governing power is derived from the people, by consensus (consensus democracy), by direct referendum (direct democracy), or by means of elected representatives of the people (representative democracy).[1] The term comes from the Greek: δημοκρατία – (dēmokratía) "rule of the people",[2] which was coined from δῆμος (dêmos) "people" and κράτος (Kratos) "power", in the middle of the 5th-4th century BC to denote the political systems then existing in some Greek city-states, notably Athens following a popular uprising in 508 BC.
Democracy has been along a lot longer than "a bunch of colonists", actually. And history supported it just fine, in some places, and in some times, depending on the place, and the time. Which is *exactly* what ILB was saying. I certainly think we should support democracy and avoid propping up dictators, but it's not as if history supports the idea that democracy is the natural form of government.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by msduncan »

BTW -- UK papers were trumpeting yesterday that Wikileaks revealed that we'd been actively assisting one of the key people behind this current uprising for several years. So the US actually has been (behind the scenes) assisting the movement.

The problem is that we need to publicly do so now.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by El Guapo »

To be fair to the Obama administration, this isn't an open and shut call. There's a fair chance that the following could happen:

Obama calls for Mubarak to resign. Mubarak's government further destabilizes and collapses, leading to an interim unity government of some type. The Muslim Brotherhood - the best organized opposition - denounced the unity government as tainted by the old regime (it's plausible that this government has at least some holdovers from the old government), and continues to hold large opposition rallies. Eventually the Unity Government falls in favor of one dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood. The now theocratic Egyptian government renounces Egypt's peace treaty with Israel and begins openly supporting and arming Hamas in Palestine, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and other militant groups across the Middle East. Secular governments across the Middle East are further destablized. Tunisia also becomes dominated by a theocratic government.


That's catastrophically bad. Now, since waffling only emboldens anti-U.S. forces, I think we ought to just bite the bullet and call for Mubarak to resign. But it's not an easy call, and I'm sure the above scenario, which is highly plausible, is keeping many people up at night.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Kraken »

El Guapo wrote: We've backed Mubarak more or less since the start of his reign, and Egypt gets the second-largest amount of U.S. foreign aid, after Israel. Calling for Mubarak's departure is a good step, but can that really make up for decades of U.S. support for him? The Bush Administration's Freedom Agenda was a good step, but even then we still heavily supported Mubarak.

This is a lesson in the price we pay in the long-run for supporting dictators. It's no surprise that Eastern Europe remains one of the most pro-American regions in the world, since we opposed their dictators for decades. When and if Iran's government falls the new government there is likely to be pro-American since we oppose their oppressors. In most of the mid-east, where we support the dictators...it's going to be complicated.
And the #1 complication in the Arab world is Israel. Mubarak and his inner circle support the Camp David peace accords. The Egyptian people, I read today, do not. The Muslim Brotherhood is aligned with Hamas and the Palestinians. That by itself explains our support for Mubarak and our primary interest in whoever succeeds him.

The Israeli perspective: http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle ... scenarios/" target="_blank
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Rip »

ImLawBoy wrote:
Rip wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Rip wrote:Well it would seem the people of Egypt are concerned about who leads them. Perhaps it isn't an easy thing but I think it is inevitable for every country. If we don't believe that then why bother making so much noise about how we are spreading democracy? I think democracy can spread itself as information and communications technology evolves. The real problem now is that by trying to stifle the ones that we fear will not fall in line behind us, we are actually creating democracies that WILL be opposed to us.
I never said that Egypt won't turn into a democracy. I don't know a lot about their economy, but my guess is that they're a lot more developed than many countries, and could support a democracy. My objection was to your statement that all nations would be run by their people. It's just not realistic or supported by history.
Democracy wasn't supported by history until some colonists gave it a go, while the world scoffed at them. We can't stand on the fence on this one, it simply shows that we are as hypocritical as we feared those wikileaks documents would make us look.
Most of the world had no idea what was going on back then, and the colonies were in a decidedly different situation than Egypt is. Once again, though, I never said Egypt couldn't be a democracy. I did say that Yemen won't be a democracy. I will say that Somalia won't be a democracy any time soon. North Korea is an interesting case, because although their economy likely would not support a democracy as it is, getting the ruling family out of there could open things up in a hurry (particularly with the freeing of the border between North and South).

Now, you may want to shift the focus here to the US government response and what the government should be doing, but since you started your "For Shame!" rant in response to my quotation about democracies needing solid economies to flourish, I'm going to call you on the scolding tone which is unwarranted in response to my post.
Rip wrote:I am not trying to scold anyone here necessarily
Then you probably shouldn't end your post by calling out forum posters who disliked GWB and ending with "For shame!"
The shame isn't for not supporting GWB, it is for not REALLY believing that free nations are friendlier nations. We can't be for self rule when it suits us. Now that they are hanging from the proverbial edge of the building we have a choice. We can reach out to help them up, stand there and cheer them on, or stomp on their fingers. Right now we are cheering them on and not all that enthusiastically. I would choose to help them up even if it places me in some peril.

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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by SpaceLord »

msduncan wrote:I am inclined to agree with Rip on this one.

Regardless of which government they choose.... Obama is quickly showing his tentative and inexperienced leadership qualities here. This moment is slipping away quickly and we are going to be defined to the Egyptian people as the US that stood behind the dictator instead of the country that assisted the call for freedom (even if that means a government that is less friendly to Israel).

Right now is a crises of inaction from the administration. This could quickly become the biggest disaster of his presidency if he doesn't come out and make a stand.
It's not nearly that simple. Read Kraken's article. What a mess if the elected leader is a strident opponent to Israel.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by ImLawBoy »

So you at least admit now that you were scolding? ;)

Are you arguing that we should ignore the possibility of an unfriendly, although democratically elected, government springing up in Egypt (or elsewhere)? It's possible to support freedom while still worrying about whether a freely elected government will be friendly to the US and beneficial to our interests in the region. To ignore that very real possibility is akin to sticking our heads in the sand.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Rip »

Kraken wrote:
El Guapo wrote: We've backed Mubarak more or less since the start of his reign, and Egypt gets the second-largest amount of U.S. foreign aid, after Israel. Calling for Mubarak's departure is a good step, but can that really make up for decades of U.S. support for him? The Bush Administration's Freedom Agenda was a good step, but even then we still heavily supported Mubarak.

This is a lesson in the price we pay in the long-run for supporting dictators. It's no surprise that Eastern Europe remains one of the most pro-American regions in the world, since we opposed their dictators for decades. When and if Iran's government falls the new government there is likely to be pro-American since we oppose their oppressors. In most of the mid-east, where we support the dictators...it's going to be complicated.
And the #1 complication in the Arab world is Israel. Mubarak and his inner circle support the Camp David peace accords. The Egyptian people, I read today, do not. The Muslim Brotherhood is aligned with Hamas and the Palestinians. That by itself explains our support for Mubarak and our primary interest in whoever succeeds him.

The Israeli perspective: http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle ... scenarios/" target="_blank
I would think that even less favorable agreements that were supported by the populace would be better than ones that are ratified by puppet governments. These unpopular treaties just align the other people that feel oppressed with the Palestinian cause.

If we allow Mubarak to deny the people freedom again we will likely turn them into terrorists for good.

In the end I don't think they are as concerned with Israel and others right now as they are with freedom and prosperity. If we are key in helping them achieve it we may be surprised at the benefits we reap.

One thing for certain this is one of the most important times in history since 9/11.

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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by Exodor »

Kraken wrote: And the #1 complication in the Arab world is Israel. Mubarak and his inner circle support the Camp David peace accords. The Egyptian people, I read today, do not. The Muslim Brotherhood is aligned with Hamas and the Palestinians. That by itself explains our support for Mubarak and our primary interest in whoever succeeds him.
Apparently Egyptians are much more pro-US since Obama took office but really hate Israel
Egyptian sentiment toward the United States has improved dramatically since the survey began. In 2007, just 11 percent of Egyptians said they viewed the United States as having a “mostly positive” influence, versus 59 percent who said it had a “mostly negative” influence. The numbers were even worse the next year: 16 percent positive, but 73 percent negative.

The election of President Obama created a major change in opinion, however. In 2009, positive opinions about the United States rose to 40 percent against 48 percent negative. And last year — the first survey conducted after Mr. Obama’s well-received June 2009 speech in Cairo — positive opinions became the plurality, at 45 percent, against 29 percent negative views,

Who doesn’t the Egyptian public like? Israel. In the 2010 poll, just 3 percent of Egyptians had a positive opinion about it versus 92 percent unfavorable; these were the worst grades for Israel of any country included in the survey.
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Re: New Egyptian Unrest: Tunisia Part II?

Post by El Guapo »

I wonder who the 3% who like Israel are.
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