US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

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LordMortis
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by LordMortis »

Isgrimnur wrote:Somehow, I don't think that would quite save me the money I'm looking for to be worth it just for the tax savings. :)
Especially when your house depreciates by over 70% over 8 years. :doh: ... And yeah, the tax savings were a huge part of that decision making process.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by El Guapo »

Warren Buffett a few years ago noted that he paid a lower effective tax rate than his secretary:
Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by coopasonic »

Isgrimnur wrote:Somehow, I don't think that would quite save me the money I'm looking for to be worth it just for the tax savings. :)
Kids + house does not come out to savings in any way shape or form, trust me on this one. My effective tax rate *is* lower though.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by geezer »

El Guapo wrote:Warren Buffett a few years ago noted that he paid a lower effective tax rate than his secretary:
Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.
That's because of the disparity between capital gains rates and income tax rates, obviously. It should be noted that on his first 60K of income he is taxed exactly as is his secretary, and on his income that is NOT derived from capital gains, his marginal rate is doubtlessly much, much higher. And I also wonder how someone making 60K a year has a marginal rate of 30%, but I digress...

Anyway, on the whole I'm sympathetic to the calls to place a higher tax burden on the wealthy - I just don't like the populist froth that drives them, because it's not accurate (or at least is nowhere near the whole story).
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by geezer »

Mitch McConnel. Still playing politics:
He described a series of incremental steps to raise the debt limit by a total of about $2.5 trillion. Obama would first request an increase in the debt ceiling of about $700 billion, which would be followed by a “resolution of disapproval” by Congress, McConnell said. That resolution, if passed, would be subject to a presidential veto, which presumably would be sustained, he said. He said the deal would also require Obama to “list spending cuts he would make in the same amount as the debt ceiling request he’s making of us.”
So The Rs will vote for an increase only if they're allowed to then turn around and go on record as opposed to an increase. What the hell is WRONG with these people??
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by noxiousdog »

geezer wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Warren Buffett a few years ago noted that he paid a lower effective tax rate than his secretary:
Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.
That's because of the disparity between capital gains rates and income tax rates, obviously. It should be noted that on his first 60K of income he is taxed exactly as is his secretary, and on his income that is NOT derived from capital gains, his marginal rate is doubtlessly much, much higher. And I also wonder how someone making 60K a year has a marginal rate of 30%, but I digress...

Anyway, on the whole I'm sympathetic to the calls to place a higher tax burden on the wealthy - I just don't like the populist froth that drives them, because it's not accurate (or at least is nowhere near the whole story).
Buffett is also including Social Security Taxes in that calculation, which is either absurd or intelligent depending on your point of view.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by El Guapo »

geezer wrote:Mitch McConnel. Still playing politics:
He described a series of incremental steps to raise the debt limit by a total of about $2.5 trillion. Obama would first request an increase in the debt ceiling of about $700 billion, which would be followed by a “resolution of disapproval” by Congress, McConnell said. That resolution, if passed, would be subject to a presidential veto, which presumably would be sustained, he said. He said the deal would also require Obama to “list spending cuts he would make in the same amount as the debt ceiling request he’s making of us.”
So The Rs will vote for an increase only if they're allowed to then turn around and go on record as opposed to an increase. What the hell is WRONG with these people??
Honestly, I'm not sure I understand how that would work legislatively. That said, I'm actually somewhat pleased as a liberal by this turn of events - it seems like McConnell is saying that he'll take a political win (not having to be seen as supporting a debt limit increase) over a substantive win (getting very large spending cuts). I just hope it continues to move in this direction.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Zarathud »

geezer wrote:I'm just saying that, by and large, a) it's harder than people think it is and b ), that for every Donald Trump there are probably a gajillion "working rich" that earn a mil a year and pay 300K of that right back out in taxes. And you'll note that I concede that those folkd could easily bear 20-30 K more without it being the travesty that the Republicans are claiming it is.
I would disagree, with a little tax planning any person earning $1 mil a year can reduce their tax rates significantly, or at least defer some portion of the taxes. It's much harder for families earning $200,000 to $500,000 a year but using a significant portion for living expenses.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Zarathud »

geezer wrote:The reality is that "the wealthy" are going to be in a whole hell of a lot more trouble if we default. What exactly do the Rs think is going to happen to the value of the dollar, not to mention the stock market and our institutional wealth if we default. It's insane.
I 100% agree.

While the Tea Party is willing to let America burn, the wealthy want stability. It's going to split the GOP, which is Obama's real leverage. If the Republican party was serious about fiscal responsibility, Rep. Boener could achieve a big compromise with Obama.

We have historically low tax rates, particularly when you take into account the Bush cuts in the capital gains tax. Those low tax rates were shown to be fiscally irresponsible 10 years ago, which is why tax rates were supposed to automatically increase at the end of 2010 under the Pay-as-you-Go system. We've spent the Clinton-era surplus, and then some. That recklessness isn't Obama's fault -- it's the Republican long-term strategy of running up deficits to cause a crisis so they can "starve the beast" of government.
Last edited by Zarathud on Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Zarathud »

It's bad when the Republican Party is getting called out by the Economist for rejecting an offer that's not only reasonable, but close to what the House Republicans originally asked for:
IN THREE weeks, if there is no political deal, the American government will go into default. ...

There is no good economic reason why this should be happening. America’s net indebtedness is a perfectly affordable 65% of GDP, and throughout the past three years of recession and tepid recovery investors have been more than happy to go on lending to the federal government. The current problems, rather, are political. ...

A gamble where you bet your country’s good name

This newspaper has a strong dislike of big government; we have long argued that the main way to right America’s finances is through spending cuts. But you cannot get there without any tax rises. In Britain, for instance, the coalition government aims to tame its deficit with a 3:1 ratio of cuts to hikes. America’s tax take is at its lowest level for decades: even Ronald Reagan raised taxes when he needed to do so.

And the closer you look, the more unprincipled the Republicans look. Earlier this year House Republicans produced a report noting that an 85%-15% split between spending cuts and tax rises was the average for successful fiscal consolidations, according to historical evidence. The White House is offering an 83%-17% split (hardly a huge distance) and a promise that none of the revenue increase will come from higher marginal rates, only from eliminating loopholes. If the Republicans were real tax reformers, they would seize this offer.

Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by LordMortis »

Zarathud wrote:
geezer wrote:The reality is that "the wealthy" are going to be in a whole hell of a lot more trouble if we default. What exactly do the Rs think is going to happen to the value of the dollar, not to mention the stock market and our institutional wealth if we default. It's insane.
I 100% agree.

While the Tea Party is willing to let America burn, the wealthy want stability. It's going to split the GOP, which is Obama's real leverage. If the Republican party was serious about fiscal responsibility, Rep. Boener could achieve a big compromise with Obama.

We have historically low tax rates, particularly when you take into account the Bush cuts in the capital gains tax. Those low tax rates were shown to be fiscally irresponsible 10 years ago, which is why tax rates were supposed to automatically increase at the end of 2010 under the Pay-as-you-Go system. We've spent the Clinton-era surplus, and then some. That recklessness isn't Obama's fault -- it's the Republican long-term strategy of running up deficits to cause a crisis so they can "starve the beast" of government.
That's been the R problem all along since uncorking of Palin republicanism as the extreme extension of Bush the Younger republicanism. The Rs thought they could control them. Whoopsie! It's going to be republican problem for a long time to come too. This is "the base" that has been fired up. They're not going anywhere. Assuming Ds and Rs don't burn the whole place down with kerosene, it will interesting to see what happens next. There's a chance for the Ds to take nearly unilateral power and be reasonable about having it. What do you suppose the odds are of that happening?
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Smoove_B »

Obama invokes the holy father:
"Ronald Reagan repeatedly took steps that included revenue, in order for him to accomplish some of these larger goals," Obama told CBS in an interview.

"And the question is if Ronald Reagan could compromise -- why wouldn't folks who idolize Ronald Reagan be willing to engage in those same kinds of compromises."
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by geezer »

Zarathud wrote:
geezer wrote:I'm just saying that, by and large, a) it's harder than people think it is and b ), that for every Donald Trump there are probably a gajillion "working rich" that earn a mil a year and pay 300K of that right back out in taxes. And you'll note that I concede that those folkd could easily bear 20-30 K more without it being the travesty that the Republicans are claiming it is.
I would disagree, with a little tax planning any person earning $1 mil a year can reduce their tax rates significantly, or at least defer some portion of the taxes. It's much harder for families earning $200,000 to $500,000 a year but using a significant portion for living expenses.
Well sure - it's hard to save money when you spend it all, of course. But that's not a function of the rich getting "special" or "creative" treatment, it's a question of people with disposable income having more ability to save.

It's a small distinction, but an important one, I think, when dealing with the issue of populist anger over perceived special treatment. You're the tax attorney - I'm just a dude whose financial advisor comes to me every April 14 with a bunch of tax deferment ideas, but I've never gotten a plan proposal where I can both earn a bunch of money, not pay taxes on it, and turn around and buy a yacht instead ;)
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by geezer »

Smoove_B wrote:Obama invokes the holy father:
"Ronald Reagan repeatedly took steps that included revenue, in order for him to accomplish some of these larger goals," Obama told CBS in an interview.

"And the question is if Ronald Reagan could compromise -- why wouldn't folks who idolize Ronald Reagan be willing to engage in those same kinds of compromises."
As well he should. Obama is taking what would have been a very conservative position as recently as 3 years ago. The Tea Party has gone insane.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Kraken »

LordMortis wrote:There's a chance for the Ds to take nearly unilateral power and be reasonable about having it. What do you suppose the odds are of that happening?
Very slight, thanks to winner-take-all elections and the concentration of conservatism in growing states. Even in those red states where independents might tip the majority to Ds, the newly elected Rs are busily redrawing districts to ensure that they can never lose. Add their efforts to disenfranchise minority and uneducated voters, and...well, they're pretty untouchable regardless of what the majority of voters might want.

If by some miracle a large, enduring D majority did emerge, it would eventually look like our one-party government in MA: Effective and stable, but highly corrupt. (Our last three speakers of the house have all gone to prison).
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by El Guapo »

IF the economy sharply improves before 2012 there's a chance that the democrats could regain the house and retain the other branches. But I don't think that the economy will (especially if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised).
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Exodor »

I read elsewhere that the proposed (and rejected) deal included raising SS eligibility to 67, making most of the bush tax cuts permanent and other huge entitlement cuts.

And they rejected that deal?

This isn't about principle, it's simply about politics and trying to make Obama look bad. Unfortunately I think he's coming off like the adult in a room full of crying babies.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by LordMortis »

El Guapo wrote:IF the economy sharply improves before 2012 there's a chance that the democrats could regain the house and retain the other branches. But I don't think that the economy will (especially if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised).
If the economy improves, I'd think the Rs would take that as a sign that they are effecting positive change with their masses of the fringe entry into government. OTOH, Obama stays. If the economy doesn't improve, I'd think that good for the Ds in both houses and "America" would search for stability over a vote for "not a democrat" except for in Obama, who gets tossed without an improved economy, short of creating the most warm and fuzzy military you imagine. Given the Pakistani Mafioso behavior regarding Afganistan, I don't see that happening.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by SpaceLord »

El Guapo wrote:IF the economy sharply improves before 2012 there's a chance that the democrats could regain the house and retain the other branches. But I don't think that the economy will (especially if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised).
If the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, there will be a very fast, very hard, worldwide recession.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Matrix »

SpaceLord wrote:
El Guapo wrote:IF the economy sharply improves before 2012 there's a chance that the democrats could regain the house and retain the other branches. But I don't think that the economy will (especially if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised).
If the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, there will be a very fast, very hard, worldwide recession.
+1 , it will drop more then 2008 crash, to give a visual sense. Chances of debt ceiling being raised 99.999%

Considering $ is one of main currencies, defaulting on payment would result in a crash of global proportions. The debt ceiling is being raised is a formality, and each side is trying to milk it before the last minute solution talks.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by msduncan »

If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.

Is it time to push away from the table and storm out of the room like the President did?
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Alefroth »

msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.

Is it time to push away from the table and storm out of the room like the President did?
Go for it.

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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by malchior »

msduncan wrote:Is it time to push away from the table and storm out of the room like the President did?
He ran down the hallway crying too. And he called Cantor a big old meanie. :roll:
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by GreenGoo »

msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.

Is it time to push away from the table and storm out of the room like the President did?
How so? Plus, you say that like it's supposed to be a slight on the president. It's pretty clearly a positive and one that most who voted for him have been waiting for for awhile. There's a limit to the amount of bad faith "no's" you can attempt to negotiate with until there is little point in continuing.

You guys have some of the lowest taxes across all first worlds, and are about to default because you don't want to pay more. Here's a hint. No one wants to pay more. But you need to man up and shoulder the burden Bush left you with. You don't get to hold your breath until mommy gives you what you want. You can try, but then, in Rmn9's immortal words, everybody dies, including you.

The republicans are only playing politics, not attempting to solve the problem. That is clear to pretty much everyone, including a large percentage of republicans as it turns out. The president could bend them over the table on this one, and surprisingly, is fighting back for once. If Obama can stay resolute, the republicans will blink first. And if they don't, they will be responsible for the result. And you guys think you've got it bad now...
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Exodor »

msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.
Given that Ronald Reagan strongly supported increasing the debt limit how far left can that position be?
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Zarathud »

msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.
I haven't moved anywhere, and I've been predicting this day for a while now. It's the Economist calling the House Republicans crazy for not accepting a deal within 2-3% of the ratio between revenue and spending cuts they originally demanded.
geezer wrote:You're the tax attorney - I'm just a dude whose financial advisor comes to me every April 14 with a bunch of tax deferment ideas, but I've never gotten a plan proposal where I can both earn a bunch of money, not pay taxes on it, and turn around and buy a yacht instead
Now that the easy income tax shelters have been shut down, these days those plans would probably involve some type of fraud.

Among the loopholes likely to get cut under Obama's plan are my favorite little strategy called the Grantor Retained Annuity Trust (GRAT). Thanks to the Walton family, you can give money away gift tax-free by putting it in trust (the GRAT) but take it back with interest over 2 years. If the trust grows more than the IRS assumed rate (currently, 2.4%), you've made a gift without tax consequences. So I guess you'd have to find an asset that can not only survive the impending financial crisis but make a hefty profit so your kids could buy that yacht for you in 2 years. ;)
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by gbasden »

Exodor wrote:
msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.
Given that Ronald Reagan strongly supported increasing the debt limit how far left can that position be?
If the Economist is saying you are behaving like petulant children, perhaps your problem is not a liberal bias.
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Pyperkub »

msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.

Is it time to push away from the table and storm out of the room like the President did?
He didn't push the table away, it just got pulled to the right :mrgreen:
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by SpaceLord »

gbasden wrote:
Exodor wrote:
msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.
Given that Ronald Reagan strongly supported increasing the debt limit how far left can that position be?
If the Economist is saying you are behaving like petulant children, perhaps your problem is not a liberal bias.
+1
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by SpaceLord »

Exodor wrote:
msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.
Given that Ronald Reagan strongly supported increasing the debt limit how far left can that position be?
And the same GOP was in charge from 2001-2006(including Boehner and Cantor), and they raised the ceiling 5 times during the Bush administration. Why are they screaming now?
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by geezer »

gbasden wrote:
Exodor wrote:
msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.
Given that Ronald Reagan strongly supported increasing the debt limit how far left can that position be?
If the Economist is saying you are behaving like petulant children, perhaps your problem is not a liberal bias.
Clearly even The Economist has been compromised by The Liberal Media. It's all a plot, I tell you!

LOL
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Defiant »

geezer wrote:
gbasden wrote:
Exodor wrote:
msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.
Given that Ronald Reagan strongly supported increasing the debt limit how far left can that position be?
If the Economist is saying you are behaving like petulant children, perhaps your problem is not a liberal bias.
Clearly even The Economist has been compromised by The Liberal Media. It's all a plot, I tell you!

LOL
What kind of commitee pinko rag only endorses Reagan once, the same number of times they endorsed socialist Barack Obama?
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Rip
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Rip »

msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.

Is it time to push away from the table and storm out of the room like the President did?
No way! What we lack in numbers we make up for in brain power.
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GreenGoo
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by GreenGoo »

Rip wrote:
msduncan wrote:If it were possible for this forum to move even farther left, it seems to have happened.

Is it time to push away from the table and storm out of the room like the President did?
No way! What we lack in numbers we make up for in brain power.
I have this picture of Rip in a supervillian costume a la Megamind, massaging his temples as power waves emanate from his skull and he makes a "whuumm whuumm whuumm" sound.
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silverjon
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by silverjon »

Well, Rip did freeze time, just last week. Should have been a sign.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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Mr. Fed
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Mr. Fed »

"Don't call my bluff!"

Good God.
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deadzone
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by deadzone »

Is anyone else scared enough about this to think that they are stupid enough to call his bluff?
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GreenGoo
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by GreenGoo »

Mr. Fed wrote:"Don't call my bluff!"

Good God.
Is this a general comment, a comment on something in the news I haven't read yet, or a comment specific to something posted in this thread (i.e. the faceoff in general)?
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Mr. Fed
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Mr. Fed »

GreenGoo wrote:
Mr. Fed wrote:"Don't call my bluff!"

Good God.
Is this a general comment, a comment on something in the news I haven't read yet, or a comment specific to something posted in this thread (i.e. the faceoff in general)?
Republicans said tense negotiations over raising the $14.3 trillion debt limit at the White House ended when President Obama stormed out of the meeting with a stern warning to House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.): “Don’t call my bluff.”
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Re: US is in Even Worse Shape Financially Than Greece

Post by Smoove_B »

Well, it's not like there's a precedent for Congress to unexpectedly vote down financial legislation to stop the economy from imploding.

In summary: stock up on canned goods
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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