YK's comments essentially blame the downturn of the economy on the american people not working hard enough. And that's a republican talking point.
This is a perfect example of why I stopped posting for awhile. People putting words into my mouth. I never said anything of the sort.
While you aren't responding to me directly there, I want to be clear that I didn't put any words in your mouth. I responded to your post, verbatim.
The problem was this comment that you made:
YellowKing wrote:Some people can't handle reality and the idea they have to actually expend effort to make something of themselves, and for those people the Democratic party offers a steady drip of morphine. Republicans are "evil" because they're not spoon-feeding the masses some feel-good pap that has no basis in real life.
The notion that successful people are bad, and that you are not successful because society is "keeping you down" through no fault of your own is an appealing message. It's human nature to blame everyone but yourself for your problems
If I was to interpret that again, I have no choice to assume that your position is that reality is that people "have to actually expend effort to make something of themselves", followed by "It's human nature to blame everyone by yourself for your problems".
How are we to interpret that if not that the people are to blame for their own problems? How are we to interpret that in such a way that we don't believe that "actually expending effort to make something of themselves" is something that you believe is a key component of their "problems"?
All of my responses on that point were simply focused on the fact that in the context of this economy, we aren't really talking about people that aren't (or weren't) expending enough effort to make something of themselves. We aren't talking about people that are blaming everyone but themselves for their problems. We are talking about people that were expending a metric shit ton of effort to make something of themselves - who have someone very specific to blame for their current predicament.
Dismissing that using the broad stereotype that the federal government is raining money down on the lazy is one of the main reasons that Republicans are viewed as "evil". That's what I was explaining.
YellowKing wrote:Half of Rm9's refutations above are based on the idea that I said things I didn't even say.
I quoted you sentence by sentence. If I was refuting it, it's because you said it, or strongly implied it with your use of language (SEE: interpretation above).
YellowKing wrote:This statement pretty much sums up the attitude around here.
Not really. It sums up my attitude here. I don't think anyone else cares.
YellowKing wrote:Anyone who disagrees with the liberal hivemind is having the "wool pulled over their eyes" or "being brainwashed."
Hardly. The problem isn't your disagreement. The problem is the way you characterize Republican behavior. Your initial foray is to deny it exists. When it's shown to you, your rebuttal is that Democrats do it too. Four years ago, you emerged from that fog. While I can understand disillusionment with how things have turned out - I don't understand falling back into the pattern of ignoring what Republicans do, and when shown that they do it, to just fall back on the "Democrats do it too" defense.
You started this with the absurd notion that Republicans don't use broad socio-economic stereotypes. That's preposterous to any but the most blind partisan. OF COURSE they do. They do it all the time, and for the same reason that Democrats do it (to get votes). If we both ultimately know that, why aren't we both ridiculing both of them? Why do we have to start with you saying that one side doesn't do what everyone knows that both sides do?
YellowKing wrote:There's never an admission that we may just hold different opinions or philosophies on the way things should be done. It's a line in the sand, "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality. It's very condescending, and it's no wonder that more conservatives don't post here.
I think that the evidence shows that the reason is that fewer people post here, and of the people that remain, more have drifted left than have drifted right. Every time you msduncan play this card, I have to bring up the fact that Grundbegriff never has the problems that you two seem to feel victimized by. Why is that?
YellowKing wrote:If this country only had one "right" political party and another one that was wrong about everything, then we would have crumbled long ago.
You're barking up the wrong tree, if you are insinuating that I think we have only one "right" political party. The country has two "wrong" political parties. And we're suffering as a result.
I would refer you to RLMullen's post. My criticism of the Republican party is not a defense of the Democratic party. I haven't once told you that Democrats are "better" in this thread. I've merely attempted to explain why Republicans are viewed as "evil" in this context (and why Democrats aren't).
YellowKing wrote:Unfortunately this board does not reflect this. On this board, conservative ideas are always wrong and the product of cult thinking.
Not always. This is an affliction that only seems to affect a subset of conservative posters.
YellowKing wrote:No person could independently come up with conservative ideas because no person could be that stupid and ignorant.
Coming up with them is easy. Coming up with them and being able to explain and defend them using reason and facts is much harder. And unfortunately, that's where most conservatives fall down here. msduncan has promised us that he will continue to bark at the hive-mind. But that's the problem. He never bites.
Maybe I'm missing it, but where is all this thoughtful conservative analysis that is being offered and ignored?
YellowKing wrote:it gets tiring when all of your ideas are not met with open-minded discussion, but ridicule and derision.
I'll ask you the same question I asked msduncan. If my great crime is being incapable of open-minded discussion, how did I get here from there? I can pinpoint specific posters and topics that have resulted in me changing my mind (sometimes drastically). How is this possible if I am incapable?
Is it at least *possible* that there is a substantive difference between those conversations and what appears to pass for "political debate" these days, which generally amounts to stating of opinions and assuming that is enough?
YellowKing wrote:When the philosophies you've thought about, read about, and come up with all your life are dismissed in one fell stroke as the product of party-line parroting.
It's a hard sell that a post is the product of a life-long philosophical journey when it routinely lines up with the conservative talking points of a given day. I do notice that a lot of conservatives have this problem though.
YellowKing wrote:If you all are depressed, I'm just disappointed.
Not all, just me.
YellowKing wrote:Disappointed that I can't engage in friendly debate on an internet forum and have people at least be open-minded enough to discuss an alternative point of view. I'm not playing the victim card, I'm just stating facts.
You're not playing the victim card...you're just the victim of a liberal hive-mind conspiracy that dismisses all of your thoughts because they disagree with them?
YellowKing wrote:I'm tired of my thoughts being dismissed as party-line brainwashing. I'm tired of Democratic opinion stated as 100% cold fact, and any disagreement being dismissed as being part of the Republican cult or condescending "oh you poor misguided thing" derogatory statements.
Who has suggested that Democratic opinion is 100% cold fact?
The problem (for me) has been that it wasn't so long ago that you saw through all the partisan party bullshit. I just don't understand why you are acting like that never happened. To the degree that you actually posted that Republicans don't engage in class warfare or invent broad socio-economic stereotypes to that end.
A central theme of the modern conservative movement is that the federal govt is a vast redistribution of wealth network, which is a complete and utter farce. Not because democratic operatives told me. Not because I simply believe that it's not true. But because I have gone through the federal budget dozens of times, going back at least 60 years. Where is it? You made the claim in this thread that Democrats offer it as the solution to all of our problems. Prove it. Prove that wealth is being distributed from the haves to the have nots. I don't know what you've been thinking about, or how long - but you clearly missed an important data point like "the wealthy keep increasing their share of the wealth". So let's have an honest discussion about that.
Show me that the federal government is a big redistribution of wealth scheme to get money from the Have's to the lazy and shiftless Have Not's. Don't shower me with platitudes about a progressive income tax scale. Show me the data that leads you to conclude that the wealthy are becoming less wealthy because their wealth is being redistributed to the poor.
The Defense budget isn't being given to the poor. It's being given back to the already wealthy (the owners of Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman, Raytheon, etc.). The Medicare budget isn't being given to little old ladies that refuse to work. It's being given back to the already wealthy (health care providers). How about that TARP money, did that go to the Have Nots? How about the money that we spend on Foreign Relations? Is that going to the American poor? The Dept of Justice? The Dept of Agriculture?
Can you at least be asked to provide some hard data that shows that this redistribution is happening, that doesn't involve just quoting progressive income tax rates? Lay it on me brother, I promise I'll approach your detailed argument with an open mind.