Amazon has whacked our affiliate account. Hosting Donations/Commitments $2063 of $1920 (Sept 13/18). In Hand $1466 (Lump sum payments minus paypal graft). Paypal Donation Link Here

The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 59218
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:19 am

Remus West wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:03 am
I think Trump made this all happen to give his base and those few undecided voters a boost coming into the midterms in an effort to maintain his current power structure and thus enable further building of the coallition that Holman mentioned.

The Right seem to love him for this. "It's an act of Reagan to disarm North Korea" :puke:

Abandoning allies to appease China and Russia is what we do though.

On the bright side, this should put a major cut to our overseas military machine feeding and industrial complex spending, right?


The German perspective for watching this unfold is fascinating.

http://www.dw.com/en/russia-ready-to-co ... a-40754133
http://www.dw.com/en/how-north-korea-su ... a-40498208

What are Xi and Putin's relationships, btw? That really really really needs to be understood about now.

Also, I really hope we're all wrong here. I just wish there were some evidence to point in that direction. I want to know what is going with SK leadership right now and the SK people. They really ought to be a good barometer to divorce my from prejudices.
Last edited by LordMortis on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Paingod
Posts: 9204
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:58 am

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Paingod » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:22 am

NickAragua wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:14 am
The real question I have is, who sucked whose dick in that room?
Neither. They both tried auto-fellatio, but both were physically incapable, and so they agreed to tell the world about their amazing success. Kim can hit holes in one all day long at a golf course because everyone is afraid to contradict it, and Trump simply envisions the holes are 20 feet across and magnetically pull his ball in. Winning!
More than ever, now is the time to stand by the causes you believe in; donate and support to keep America great.
Reproductive Rights, Environmental Defense, Civil Liberties, LGBTQ Awareness, Immigration Rights
Currently playing: Into the Breach, Skyrim SE

User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 36116
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by hepcat » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:27 am

Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:55 am
Either he's completely ignorant about what just happened or he's lying about it

The beauty of Trump is that it could actually be both.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
-Mr Bismarck

You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
-Coopasonic

User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 32563
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Remus West » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:30 am

hepcat wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:27 am
beauty
You are using this word wrong.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26849
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:
Rip’s avatar
Away

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Rip » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:56 am

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:21 am
Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am
If he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to.......
Add UN or some other independent source other than the US two only apparent "allies" China and Russia and I'll agree. I'm not holding my breath for either of them.

http://www.businessinsider.com/china-kn ... ?r=UK&IR=T

https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/sta ... 80770?s=19
I've just realised #China must have been informed that #USA and #SouthKorea were going to halt joint military drills! The Foreign Ministry spokesperson (before President Trump's press conference) said: "Our suspension for suspension process is right and has been realised"! #DPRK
2:57 AM - 12 Jun 2018
"USFK has received no updated guidance on execution or cessation of training exercises - to include this fall's schedule Ulchi Freedom Guardian," US Forces in Korea Lt. Col. Jennifer Lovett said in a statement seen by Reuters.

"In coordination with our ROK partners, we will continue with our current military posture until we receive updated guidance from the Department of Defense (DoD) and/or Indo-Pacific Command (INDOPACOM)."
My biggest fear is that we will give NK a deal that is as full of holes as the Iranian one.
I'd think your biggest fear is you gave China and NK everything they've been asking for, turned on SK, left our military in the dark and got so far we've managed to secure IP for Ivanka in return. But that shows what I know.
McDonell is the very definition of political tool.


User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26849
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:
Rip’s avatar
Away

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Rip » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:04 am

Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:55 am
So the deal isn't really a deal because there's no enforcement, no verification. It's just a statement of intent, which is similar to those NK has made and then violated time and time again. Meanwhile, Trump is out there saying he thinks they'll begin dismantling their nukes very soon and very rapidly. Either he's completely ignorant about what just happened or he's lying about it, but my greater worry is that this is all a pretext for when NK doesn't take any action to claim that we tried diplomacy, they back-stabbed us, so now we must let the bombs fly. Bolton was in the room after all. Or maybe this is just a signal of our tactic acceptance that NK will be a nuclear power and we'll have to live with it.

Most likely scenario is that Trump gave up concessions to get a photo op and seem like a big powerful important person.
Sounds like a win for you guys if he doesn't. Trump has taken a huge risk here and if you honestly think it will blow up in his face it should lead to the political death of most anyone aligning with him. The angst you are feeling is really just dread that it may go the other way. Then defeating him and his supporters just became LOTS harder.

User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 44555
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, where we only use the old smilies

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:14 am

Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:55 am

Most likely scenario is that Trump gave up concessions to get a photo op and seem like a big powerful important person.
You mean it isn't coincidence that today is the anniversary of Reagan's "Tear down this wall" speech?"


Trump's North Korea Summit Reminiscent of Reagan's Moscow Summit 30 Years Ago


Trump prepares for North Korea summit as a great performer -- like Reagan

Nothing like appropriation.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT

User avatar
raydude
Posts: 2692
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:22 am

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by raydude » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:30 am

Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:04 am
Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:55 am
So the deal isn't really a deal because there's no enforcement, no verification. It's just a statement of intent, which is similar to those NK has made and then violated time and time again. Meanwhile, Trump is out there saying he thinks they'll begin dismantling their nukes very soon and very rapidly. Either he's completely ignorant about what just happened or he's lying about it, but my greater worry is that this is all a pretext for when NK doesn't take any action to claim that we tried diplomacy, they back-stabbed us, so now we must let the bombs fly. Bolton was in the room after all. Or maybe this is just a signal of our tactic acceptance that NK will be a nuclear power and we'll have to live with it.

Most likely scenario is that Trump gave up concessions to get a photo op and seem like a big powerful important person.
Sounds like a win for you guys if he doesn't. Trump has taken a huge risk here and if you honestly think it will blow up in his face it should lead to the political death of most anyone aligning with him. The angst you are feeling is really just dread that it may go the other way. Then defeating him and his supporters just became LOTS harder.
The trouble is that "political death" may be too little, too late. On the other hand, given Trump's MO of non-followup what makes you think this "deal" will be any different than say, his "Deal" with the Carrier plant in Indianapolis?

malchior
Posts: 7900
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by malchior » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:33 am

So let's sum this up - in return for a 'guarantee' of 'de-nuclearization' at some undefined point we immediately hung a decades old ally out to dry without their input? That about cover it?

User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 32563
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Remus West » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:37 am

malchior wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:33 am
So let's sum this up - in return for a 'guarantee' of 'de-nuclearization' at some undefined point we immediately hung a decades old ally out to dry without their input? That about cover it?
But Kim is trustworthy now. Trump has spoken.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

User avatar
gbasden
Posts: 5447
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:57 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by gbasden » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:56 am

malchior wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:33 am
So let's sum this up - in return for a 'guarantee' of 'de-nuclearization' at some undefined point we immediately hung a decades old ally out to dry without their input? That about cover it?
Hey, as Em2 said, fuck those guys. SK will do anything to prevent being shelled into next week, but Japan has got to be beyond livid. They are just democracies though, not autocratic strongmen. Why should we side with our allies of 70+ years when we can suck up to dictators?

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 32527
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Offline

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Kraken » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:08 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:45 am
I really believe Trump's affinity for autocrats and nationalism has him dreaming of a new order where the US/Russia/China and assorted dictatorships stand against and dominate the soft, diverse, pluralist democracies of Europe. All the indications and all of Trump's diplomatic choices point that way. It's staring us in the face.

I can picture Bannon whispering it into Trump's ear like Grima Wormtongue during the campaign, but I think the predilections were always there.
A tale of three empires
Think of the world as a three-empire system. It is dominated by the United States, China, and Europe, in that order. Each empire is evolving in a different direction. The American empire, having experienced overextension in Afghanistan and Iraq, has not retreated into isolation. Its latest step down the road to empire is domestic: Trump’s claim that he can pardon himself epitomizes the fundamental challenge he poses to the formal and informal rules of the American republic.

All the accompanying symptoms of the transition from republic to empire are already visible. The plebs despise the elites. An old and noble senatorial order personified by John McCain is dying. A cultural civil war rages on social media, the modern-day forum, with all civility cast aside and character assassination a daily occurrence. The president-emperor dominates public discourse by issuing 280-character edicts, picking fights with football players, and arbitrarily pardoning convicted criminals.

Meanwhile, the Chinese empire becomes ever more centralized, ever more invasive of its citizens’ privacy, and ever more overt in its overseas expansion. The Western world regards Xi Jinping as an almighty potentate. Few observers appreciate the acute sense of weakness that has motivated his tightening grip on party and state and his surveillance of his own people. Few see the risks of imperial ventures such as the Belt and Road Initiative, which is drawing Chinese investment into economically unpromising and strategically dangerous locations.

The weakest of the three empires is the European Union. True, its central institutions in Brussels have the power to impose rules, fines, and taxes on the biggest American and Chinese corporations. But Europe lacks tech giants of its own. Its navies, armies, and air forces have melted away, so that it can scarcely defend its frontiers from penniless migrants, never mind hostile invaders. And the political consensus on which it has been based for the past 60 years —between social democrats and moderate conservatives in every member state — is crumbling under a nationalist-populist assault.

The logic of Trumpism is simply to bully the other empires, exploiting the fact that they are both weaker than the United States, in order to extract concessions and claim victories. The Chinese sincerely fear a trade war and will end up buying a very large amount of American produce in order to avoid one. The Europeans dare not stand up to Trump over his Iran sanctions and secretly agree with him about China, and so are reduced to impotent seething (Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany) or sycophancy (President Emmanuel Macron of France, until last week’s G-7 summit). If they unite against him, he brings up Russia and divides them again.
Republics are pussies.

User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 36116
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by hepcat » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:43 pm

Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:04 am

Sounds like a win for you guys if he doesn't. Trump has taken a huge risk here and if you honestly think it will blow up in his face it should lead to the political death of most anyone aligning with him. The angst you are feeling is really just dread that it may go the other way. Then defeating him and his supporters just became LOTS harder.
Sounds like more hypocrisy from the right when they would've (and have) complained quite passionately about Dem leaders doing similar things.

Engaging with dictators = OK if it's the guy you voted for.

Engaging with dictators = wrong and treasonous if it's not.

Human nature. It gets us all in the end.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
-Mr Bismarck

You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
-Coopasonic

User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26849
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:
Rip’s avatar
Away

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Rip » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:56 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:33 am
So let's sum this up - in return for a 'guarantee' of 'de-nuclearization' at some undefined point we immediately hung a decades old ally out to dry without their input? That about cover it?
You mean South Korea? Did you not read their statement? They are overjoyed about how things have gone thus far. Perhaps they like being "hung out to dry"?

User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26849
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:
Rip’s avatar
Away

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Rip » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:00 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:43 pm
Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:04 am

Sounds like a win for you guys if he doesn't. Trump has taken a huge risk here and if you honestly think it will blow up in his face it should lead to the political death of most anyone aligning with him. The angst you are feeling is really just dread that it may go the other way. Then defeating him and his supporters just became LOTS harder.
Sounds like more hypocrisy from the right when they would've (and have) complained quite passionately about Dem leaders doing similar things.

Engaging with dictators = OK if it's the guy you voted for.

Engaging with dictators = wrong and treasonous if it's not.

Human nature. It gets us all in the end.

If Obama would have gotten NK to release hostages I would have applauded it. Hell if he could have gotten Iran to release theirs I would have applauded it. Despite your beliefs I am all for advancing American interests no matter who does it.

User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 37987
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Smoove_B » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:05 pm

Can we get back to the part where our President said in a press conference that if he was wrong, he'd just lie to everyone? Can we focus just maybe a little more on that?

Thanks.

User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 59218
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:08 pm

Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:04 am
it should lead to the political death of most anyone aligning with him.
LOL
Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:56 pm
You mean South Korea? Did you not read their statement? They are overjoyed about how things have gone thus far. Perhaps they like being "hung out to dry"?
This is what I'm trying to parse. If this true and not just a statement, then by all means lets bug out and defund the military. Trump wins the US wins. Korea wins. China wins. Russia wins.

That tweet and the CNN correspondent reports are small and say little. The most recent thing I could find was CNN saying South Koreans have a wait and see attitude on their head headline and then I sat through a five minute video (no transcripts) that completely failed to talk about the headline.

So I have a let's wait and see attitude about what SK thinks, but if they're happy in such a way that is more meaningful than saying the Trump Administration being happy is saying the US is happy then please, please, please, reallocate that money to infrastructure and the needy in the US and bail and give Trump a win.

User avatar
NickAragua
Posts: 3889
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by NickAragua » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:14 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:08 pm
So I have a let's wait and see attitude about what SK thinks, but if they're happy in such a way that is more meaningful than saying the Trump Administration being happy is saying the US is happy then please, please, please, reallocate that money to infrastructure and the needy in the US and bail and give Trump a win.
The problem is that any savings are going to go into the pockets of his Russian golfing buddies, while infrastructure is going to get a big fat zero.

Granted, the Democrats don't do much better, but at least they have the decency to pretend not to be corrupt.

Anyway, good luck getting congress to ratify any of this stuff. If I hear about a Republican wanting to cut military spending, that means hell has frozen over and it's time to buy up generators and stock up on shotgun ammo and canned beans, while looking out for seven-headed dragons flying in the east and angels descending from the heavens to initiate Ragnarok.

User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 59218
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:20 pm

NickAragua wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:14 pm
The problem is that any savings are going to go into the pockets of his Russian golfing buddies, while infrastructure is going to get a big fat zero.
Let's start with making sure we aren't bailing on another ally
Then worry about gutting our military in the Pacific
Then worry about the 100s of billions of dollars saved be reducing our "police" presence as multinational military might flexor.

User avatar
Paingod
Posts: 9204
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:58 am

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Paingod » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:26 pm

Maybe South Korea should have thought ahead and incentivized Trump's negotiations by offering to reduce taxes on his properties there? I bet we'd still be talking tough with the North right now if they did. Or maybe they pissed him off during constructions and this is a way to dig back at them.

Such musings should be alleviated by divestment, but alas...
Last edited by Paingod on Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
More than ever, now is the time to stand by the causes you believe in; donate and support to keep America great.
Reproductive Rights, Environmental Defense, Civil Liberties, LGBTQ Awareness, Immigration Rights
Currently playing: Into the Breach, Skyrim SE

User avatar
NickAragua
Posts: 3889
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by NickAragua » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:26 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:20 pm
NickAragua wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:14 pm
The problem is that any savings are going to go into the pockets of his Russian golfing buddies, while infrastructure is going to get a big fat zero.
Let's start with making sure we aren't bailing on another ally
Then worry about gutting our military in the Pacific
Then worry about the 100s of billions of dollars saved be reducing our "police" presence as multinational military might flexor.
That's a reasonable set of priorities. I somehow doubt that our orange president will be the one to take care any of that stuff, though.

User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 44555
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, where we only use the old smilies

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:52 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:20 pm
NickAragua wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:14 pm
The problem is that any savings are going to go into the pockets of his Russian golfing buddies, while infrastructure is going to get a big fat zero.
Let's start with making sure we aren't bailing on another ally
Then worry about gutting our military in the Pacific
Then worry about the 100s of billions of dollars saved be reducing our "police" presence as multinational military might flexor.
It would be interesting to see what the actual fiscal impact would be. Lots of that money goes to US companies. A fair amount goes to US service members. I'm all for a smaller military budget if we can safely do it but there will be some financial pain somewhere. Maybe lobbyist coffers, maybe middle America. Not really sure.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT

User avatar
Enough
Posts: 13917
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Serendipity
Contact:

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Enough » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:54 pm

Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:00 pm
hepcat wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:43 pm
Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:04 am

Sounds like a win for you guys if he doesn't. Trump has taken a huge risk here and if you honestly think it will blow up in his face it should lead to the political death of most anyone aligning with him. The angst you are feeling is really just dread that it may go the other way. Then defeating him and his supporters just became LOTS harder.
Sounds like more hypocrisy from the right when they would've (and have) complained quite passionately about Dem leaders doing similar things.

Engaging with dictators = OK if it's the guy you voted for.

Engaging with dictators = wrong and treasonous if it's not.

Human nature. It gets us all in the end.

If Obama would have gotten NK to release hostages I would have applauded it. Hell if he could have gotten Iran to release theirs I would have applauded it. Despite your beliefs I am all for advancing American interests no matter who does it.
If Obama had met with NK after Otto Warmbier died you would have been raging on it for years. You never would have applauded Obama on anything substantive (no matter your previously stated positions), which is beyond abundantly clear by your posting history, good lord dude. We didn't get shit for the "deal."

That said, those of us who were encouraged by a thawing of relations with Cuba should be glad for the same here. We've gone from literally threatening nuclear Armageddon on both sides last year to handshakes and smiles. That is a positive development. In my book, just like with Iran and Cuba, it's too early for any party hats or back-slappin'. Let's all revisit this over the years and evaluate it in the face of history.
My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream

“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell

User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 59218
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:56 pm

Paingod wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:26 pm
Such musings should be alleviated by divestment, but alas...
He did divest. He told us so before attacking the ethics committee. He assured us he divested. He even let us know how magnanimous he was by informing us he didn't have to but he did.

NickAragua wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:26 pm
That's a reasonable set of priorities. I somehow doubt that our orange president will be the one to take care any of that stuff, though.
I'll believe it when I see it. My faith and hope has long since evaporated. Doesn't mean it wouldn't still be nice to be wrong here and to see the SK people embarce this peace, to close shop, to reduce expenditures and the need/desire for policing, and to shift the taxes that supported the complex to domestic infrastructure and building a new foundation to go back to the idea that America was greatest when it was building a middle class. That, would, you know, be MAGA. I have no faith in 1, getting that I'd have no faith in 2, getting that there was never a post election promise for three, so no faith there either. But hotdamn it would be nice to be way off the mark.
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:52 pm
It would be interesting to see what the actual fiscal impact would be. Lots of that money goes to US companies. A fair amount goes to US service members. I'm all for a smaller military budget if we can safely do it but there will be some financial pain somewhere. Maybe lobbyist coffers, maybe middle America. Not really sure.
What if those service men became infrastructure builders instead of peace keepers and the money went to literally MAGA instead of the military contractors or corporate/capital investment tax breaks. Middle America should do nothing but gain. Lockheed and the like? Well, that's a different story. There will definitely be a shift in economy. What do the kids call it? A disruption.

User avatar
pr0ner
Posts: 13202
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, VA
Contact:

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by pr0ner » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:02 pm

Enough wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:54 pm
If Obama had met with NK after Otto Warmbier died you would have been raging on it for years. You never would have applauded Obama on anything substantive (no matter your previously stated positions), which is beyond abundantly clear by your posting history, good lord dude. We didn't get shit for the "deal."
I've seen come clip mashups on Twitter this morning of Fox News destroying Obama for saying he would consider meeting with NK at one of the Presidential debates in 2008 (and at various times during his presidency), but praising Trump non-stop for this meeting. The hypocrisy astounds.
Hodor.

User avatar
em2nought
Posts: 2804
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:48 am

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by em2nought » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:17 pm

gbasden wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:56 am
Hey, as Em2 said, fuck those guys.
That's not what I said at all. :roll:
#WalkAway

User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 11663
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Moliere » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:32 pm

Enlarge Image
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow

User avatar
Holman
Posts: 19073
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Approximately Wissahickon

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Holman » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:09 pm

We produced a propaganda movie trailer to sell Kim on Trump and the summit.


The clip, a four-minute overture from Trump to Kim, is styled as a movie preview. A golden production logo announces this as a presentation of “Destiny Pictures,” and frequent stock footage finds the sun shining like a dime beyond the curve of a turning world. Is Trump inviting Kim to take command of Universal Pictures? Or join him in playing God? Does either of them know the difference?

In any case, the narrator insists that the fate of the world hangs in the balance, in sentences that combine pompous syntax, palatial rhetoric, and dodgy grammar. Flattering Kim’s vanity while reflecting Trump’s own, he says, “Of those alive today, only a small number will leave a lasting impact,” while crowds scurry as if in “Koyaanisqatsi,”and postcard images of tourist sites flow past—the Great Wall, the Great Pyramid, and also Times Square, because, according to Trump’s understanding of history, the visual noise of spectacle is a postmodern wonder to revere. These sights yield to a vast North Korean flag—an invitation to a tyrant to think more bigly and take his place alongside the men who built the Colosseum and the Taj Mahal.

“History may appear to repeat itself for generations,” the narrator says. “There comes a time when only a few are called upon to make a difference.” Trump appears in oratorical postures, in still photos taken at the State of the Union address and the U.N. General Assembly, manning the lectern like the Cicero of his day. Kim waves and smiles, and waves and smiles, and walks a bit and waves some more.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

User avatar
Skinypupy
Posts: 12070
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Pac-12 Country

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Skinypupy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:37 pm

I agree with Dan Rather’s take on the summit:
We have a signed piece of paper and several big pronouncements. That was to be expected, but what really happened and what now?

The world watched with a potent mixture of hope and deep anxiety as President Trump and the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un met at their historic summit. There are so many reasons for skepticism, deep skepticism. And just because something is "historic" does not mean that it is a positive development. But I do believe that our allies in Asia (remember what allies are?), especially South Korea, have strong hopes in a process that they worked hard to begin. And perhaps, despite all the other swirling winds of global retreat, this will turn out to be a positive step towards peace. We can only hope.

Of course the cruel and bloody human rights record of North Korea and its iron repression does not end. Of course the damage that Trump has done to our closest allies in Europe and North America is not wiped clean. Of course we have a President who seems more disposed to dictators than democracies. Of course agreeing on, implanting and enforcing a nuclear deal is a Herculean task. Of course we have raised the stature of the North Korean despot on the world stage. All that serves as preface and postscript to what happened in Singapore.

And yet, nuclear war is of such a horrifying and existential threat that the fact that North Korea is talking instead of threatening, the fact that South Koreans who live in the most immediate danger are filled with hope, the fact that Trump's bellicose foreign policy advisors have tempered their saber-rattling, all that is a reason for a sliver of realistic optimism.

But of course the hard part now begins. And we have not seen much from this president as a leader who is prepared for the difficult and distinctly unglamorous slog of governance and diplomacy beyond the photo op.
We are are the last of the legion.
The last of the bastion.
We are the best of the bastards.
And slaves to none.
- "Row Row", Zeal & Ardor

User avatar
gbasden
Posts: 5447
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:57 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by gbasden » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:40 pm

Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:56 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:33 am
So let's sum this up - in return for a 'guarantee' of 'de-nuclearization' at some undefined point we immediately hung a decades old ally out to dry without their input? That about cover it?
You mean South Korea? Did you not read their statement? They are overjoyed about how things have gone thus far. Perhaps they like being "hung out to dry"?
No, not SK. We've run a delicate balancing act between the wants and desires of SK and Japan. Japan very much cares. Cancelling joint military exercises without even consulting them is a slap in the face. Again, if the President had a (D) after their name you would be screaming bloody murder. Trump just gave North Korea everything they wanted.

User avatar
Holman
Posts: 19073
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Approximately Wissahickon

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Holman » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:46 pm

gbasden wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:40 pm
Trump just gave North Korea everything they wanted.
And they gave us literally nothing but a talking point for Trump media. Nothing.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26849
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:
Rip’s avatar
Away

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Rip » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:50 pm

gbasden wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:40 pm
Rip wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:56 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:33 am
So let's sum this up - in return for a 'guarantee' of 'de-nuclearization' at some undefined point we immediately hung a decades old ally out to dry without their input? That about cover it?
You mean South Korea? Did you not read their statement? They are overjoyed about how things have gone thus far. Perhaps they like being "hung out to dry"?
No, not SK. We've run a delicate balancing act between the wants and desires of SK and Japan. Japan very much cares. Cancelling joint military exercises without even consulting them is a slap in the face. Again, if the President had a (D) after their name you would be screaming bloody murder. Trump just gave North Korea everything they wanted.
Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe welcomed the joint statement signed by President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un in Singapore as a first step in the denuclearization of North Korea.
“We see this as a step in a comprehensive resolution,” Abe said in Tokyo.

Japan wants North Korea to agree to a complete, verifiable and irreversible denuclearization. In the joint statement Kim committed North Korea “to work towards complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.”

Abe added that he “would like to thank the president (Trump) for raising the abduction issue,” referring to Japan’s demand that Pyongyang release any remaining Japanese people it abducted to train its spies.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-time ... SKBN1J82SF

Sounds furious.

User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 59218
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:20 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:46 pm
gbasden wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:40 pm
Trump just gave North Korea everything they wanted.
And they gave us literally nothing but a talking point for Trump media. Nothing.
If all goes well they "gave us" paying for half the infrastructure to maintain 24,000 US kids in camos and lifers half way around the world back to the US taxpayer to dedicate to something else, much less those 24,000 people.

If all goes well they "gave us" peace of mind to turn back the clock a few more minutes away from midnight.

If all goes well they "gave us" an out to say "hey Russia, China, this is what you wanted. It's your problem now." and somehow they do so in a humanitarian way.

Get back to me before we determine who gets what. I'm still waiting to hear what SK thinks beyond rehearsed press releases. They're in a much better position to understand what's really going on.

User avatar
Holman
Posts: 19073
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Approximately Wissahickon

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Holman » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:10 pm

Making NK (and SK and Japan and south Asia and southeast Asia and Taiwan and Australia) simply "China's problem" has *enormous* economic and political implications.

If you prefer liberal democracy, you have in interest an Asia's future because the majority of humans live there.
Last edited by Holman on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 59218
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:33 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:10 pm
Making NK (and SK and Japan and south Asia and southeast Asia and Taiwan and Australia) simply "China's problem" has *enormous* economic and political implications.

If you prefer liberal democracy, you have in interest in Asia's future because the majority of humans live there.
If SK is happy to not have us there paying half our military costs, by what authority do we protest?

User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 36996
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:33 pm

Hilarious. No one can take the US at the word any longer, but when asked for single statements about drumpf's escapades, SK's and Japan's geopolitical diplomatic issued statements are clearly their true thoughts on the matter.

User avatar
Holman
Posts: 19073
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Approximately Wissahickon

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Holman » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:55 am

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:33 pm
Holman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:10 pm
Making NK (and SK and Japan and south Asia and southeast Asia and Taiwan and Australia) simply "China's problem" has *enormous* economic and political implications.

If you prefer liberal democracy, you have in interest in Asia's future because the majority of humans live there.
If SK is happy to not have us there paying half our military costs, by what authority do we protest?
We don't know what SK wants beyond the distant hope of peace on the peninsula. There is no indication that they want us gone, but there *are* indications that they feel that Trump is as erratic and as unreliable and as dangerous as Kim.

Trump is going to give them literally no choice but to embrace Beijing as world leader. Leaving aside the personalities and politics involved, is that an outcome any of us would have hoped for?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

User avatar
raydude
Posts: 2692
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:22 am

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by raydude » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:58 am

Just as I thought. Trump uses summit as a showcase for his deal-making resulting in an empty victory. Now all we have to do is wait 6 months to see that there is no follow through.

User avatar
Chaz
Posts: 7261
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:37 am
Location: Southern NH

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by Chaz » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:27 am







Guys, don't worry. North Korea is totally fixed now! It's fine, and was so easy!
Just landed - a long trip, but everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office. There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea. Meeting with Kim Jong Un was an interesting and very positive experience. North Korea has great potential for the future!
Before taking office people were assuming that we were going to War with North Korea. President Obama said that North Korea was our biggest and most dangerous problem. No longer - sleep well tonight!
Hmm...I wonder why they assumed that. Possibly it's because you kept tweeting threats at them? Maybe that was the reason? It's not every day you see the Dunning-Kruger effect in less than 260 characters.
We save a fortune by not doing war games, as long as we are negotiating in good faith - which both sides are!
I can't imagine, even at my most inebriated, hearing a bouncer offering me an hour with a stripper for only $1,400 and thinking That sounds like a reasonable idea.-Two Sheds

User avatar
stessier
Posts: 23364
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: SC

Re: The Dear Loser comes into his own. (North Korea)

Post by stessier » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:32 am

Phew - that's a load off my mind.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Running____2014: 1300.55 miles____2015: 2036.13 miles____2016: 1012.75 miles____2017: 1105.82 miles

Post Reply