Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

[Octavious]

My company has an office in NZ. Maybe I can get transferred.

Based on what I know about your company, they would just make you commute.

Funny thing my boss actually worked in the Australia office and transferred over here. They treated him like a new employee and started him at 2 weeks vacation. He was already with the company 10 years...

[Jaymann]

Here is the party of lawn order booing private property rights, chanting FREEEDOM!:

[Octavious]

I can't wait until Trump's speech. I'm sure it won't be ridiculous. I give a 50-50 shot he says he's running again. I will not be watching as I like my tv still functioning.

[Holman]

I give a 50-50 shot he says he's running again.

There's no question. The rumor is that he plans to address the group not just as a candidate but as the presumptive nominee.

[malchior]

Here is the party of lawn order booing private property rights, chanting FREEEDOM!

At this point this is just documentation when historians look back at why the United States fell to pieces.

I give a 50-50 shot he says he's running again.

There's no question. The rumor is that he plans to address the group not just as a candidate but as the presumptive nominee.

After Mitch's statement on Fox I consider this a fait accompli. From disputing a fair election to stoking a riot/insurrection against the execution of the results of that election to presumptive nominee for the next election in only a couple months? It should be unimaginable.

[stessier]

Here is the party of lawn order

I really like this typo.

[Alefroth]

My company has an office in NZ. Maybe I can get transferred.

Based on what I know about your company, they would just make you commute.

[hitbyambulance]

any meathead y'all qaeda/MAGAt sympathizer is going to be reacting strongly from now on to hold onto what they perceive to be the actual-in-real-time decline of WHITE RULE in the US - more dirty tactics will become allowable, and lies that place the blame on anything (and eeeeverything) else other than the actual problem will proliferate.... nevermind these people were mostly sold out by the same politicians and corporations they worship. this is the era we are now in.

[Smoove_B]

Has anyone else noticed the shape of the CPAC stage is the Odal Rune/SS insignia?

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

[malchior]

Welcome to the horror show Mr. Sargent.

[Holman]

Has anyone else noticed the shape of the CPAC stage is the Odal Rune/SS insignia?

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

It doesn't look as much like that rune as the pic at this angle suggests. The back of the stage is filled in (I believe that red triangle is just a carpet pattern, not a hole in the stage). The "wells" to either side are a common feature of modern staging: they're there so the camerapeople can move around and get more angles on the speaker (such as from behind them, looking at the audience).

[Unagi]

You are being too generous.

A thrust stage isn’t new, but the bands to the side are odd

The triangle carpet in back is meaningless Except for the way that it helps form the image.

And apparently there has been a movement to make this image the preferred image as its gentler than the swastika, and to get it into more use.

I searched for a while on stage examples and found nothing with such camera wells that had meaningless empty stage to the other side. They are almost universally done with thrust stage elements. This is more than that.

[Smoove_B]

It's funny to me that we collectively try to debate whether or not a Nazi symbol was covertly used by an organization that has been overtly and verbally aligning itself with the white supremacist movement.

[Remus West]

I'd argue that they are not covertly but rather openly using nazi symbolism. And speech. And ideology. Tactics soon to follow in more regularity.

[hepcat]

I do believe they play to casual racism, and sometimes overt racism. But I don’t think they’re actively playing to true, rabid white supremacy that would take note of such a thing. That demographic is fairly small in the scheme of things.

However, playing to ANY racist ideology, no matter how slight, is inexcusable.

[Holman]

My skepticism is based on the idea that they don’t need actual Nazi symbolism when they already have a whole slew of their own symbols without Nazi baggage.

SS runes make them look like movie bad guys. Punisher Skulls and Trump Rambo memes send the same message but look edgy and cool.

I do understand that trolling has a value of its own, but I think that’s something they leave for social media and not a nationally prominent sales pitch conference.

[malchior]

I do believe they play to casual racism, and sometimes overt racism. But I don’t think they’re actively playing to true, rabid white supremacy that would take note of such a thing. That demographic is fairly small in the scheme of things.

However, playing to ANY racist ideology, no matter how slight, is inexcusable.

I don't believe this to be true. Especially after a bunch of white supremacists showed up based on these types of hints and took over the Capitol. Stepping back a few months, when challenged on this topic at the Presidential debate Trump refused to denounce them when directly confronted. Flash forward to 1/6, he called them 'very special' after they invaded the Capitol. This stuff is staring us in the face. I get that this is tough to face but we have huge problems.

We have seen increasing amounts of open white supremacist events. We had several murders linked to white supremacy. We had white supremacists on the streets in the summer pointing guns at people. So while it is certainly a relatively small group, it is probably bigger than many think and its becoming more and more active. White nationalism/extremism has been behind a majority of recent domestic violence incidents. In the end, I believe 1/6 was the result of ignoring this. And I think that we shouldn't repeat that mistake. Is this 100% certainly white supremacy? No but I sure as hell hope someone is digging into it and figuring out if it is.

Edit: Here is an example of a member of the US government seeking open alignment with white nationalism. Gosar was preceded by former GOP House member Steve King who spoke about the problems with demonizing white nationalism. Seriously. King has given up on pretending. He not only feels ok to talk about it openly but he goes further and is evangelizing white nationalism. So to sum it up we have some current and former House GOP members speaking at white nationalism events where they are attempting to legitimize and to seek policy alignment with them openly.

It's funny to me that we collectively try to debate whether or not a Nazi symbol was covertly used by an organization that has been overtly and verbally aligning itself with the white supremacist movement.

To be honest, I get it. We may be living in a reality that is unfathomable to people. And that normalcy bias at whatever levels may or may not exist may not end anytime soon. It strikes me that the experts telling us this were coming were all right and they are *still* mostly marginalized.

[hepcat]

You’re using one fringe element of the GOP that’s already been censured by his own party for racist diatribes as an example of the claim they’re actively courting hard core white Supremacists?

No, I don’t buy it.

Where you see them actively courting neo Nazis and the like, I see those groups attaching themselves to the GOP. And they’re always denounced by the majority.

As I said, I believe they’re more racist than not. But I feel it’s born more out of systemic racism within our nation itself that’s casually accepting of that history and thus not a GOP hallmark, as well as a misguided and wrongheaded reaction to BLM and other activism that’s trying to show the country that systemic racism. Since those groups are usually leftist, Republicans oppose them. Oftentimes not realizing that by doing so, they are exhibiting racist behavior.

If you ask an overwhelming number of Republicans if they’re racist, they’ll deny it vehemently. A true white supremacist institution would wear that badge with honor.

[Holman]

Where you see them actively courting neo Nazis and the like, I see those groups attaching themselves to the GOP. And they’re always denounced by the majority.

Are they, though? Most of the elected GOP right now is insisting that nothing serious happened on January 6. That's not a strictly white-supremacist episode, but it is about the acceptance of political violence to overturn democracy, and many of the groups most serious about the effort were supremacist or supremacist-sympathetic.

If you ask an overwhelming number of Republicans if they’re racist, they’ll deny it vehemently. A true white supremacist institution would wear that badge with honor.

Or course they'll deny it. And then they'll click "like" on a barely-disguised racist attack on Obama or AOC or George Soros.

[hepcat]

Where you see them actively courting neo Nazis and the like, I see those groups attaching themselves to the GOP. And they’re always denounced by the majority.

Are they, though? Most of the elected GOP right now is insisting that nothing serious happened on January 6. That's not a strictly white-supremacist episode, but it is about the acceptance of political violence to overturn democracy, and many of the groups most serious about the effort were supremacist or supremacist-sympathetic.

Yes. And you’re actually reinforcing my point by having to add “not a strictly white supremacist episode” to your argument against my belief they’re not actively and directly courting hardcore white supremacist groups. Show me a large group of Republicans espousing ethnic cleansing or other hallmarks of white supremacy and I’ll agree with you though.

Or course they'll deny it. And then they'll click "like" on a barely-disguised racist attack on Obama or AOC or George Soros.

A true, hard core white supremacist wouldn’t deny it. They’d be proud of it.

The groups that would see a stage shaped like a Nazi icon and cheer are not being actively courted by the GOP. They’re racist, sure. But they’re not neo Nazis or KKK members for the most part. They’re (mostly) racists like the majority of white America is racist. Oftentimes unwittingly so....like the majority of white America.

I’m not saying they don’t have a problem with racism that goes somewhat beyond that. If that weren’t true, white Supremacists wouldn’t be trying to attach themselves to them. But I don’t think there’s any need to elevate the GOP as a whole to comic book villain status sending out secret signals that it’s time to kill all the minorities That kind of exaggeration doesn’t help. And it’s the kind of conspiracy theory we rail against with Trump and his followers.

[malchior]

You’re using one fringe element of the GOP that’s already been censured by his own party for racist diatribes as an example of the claim they’re actively courting hard core white Supremacists?

No, I don’t buy it.

King was just the warm up. The keynote was given by Gosar - an active, currently un-censured member of the House GOP delegation. After he spoke, the below happened and then he went and spoke at CPAC *today*.

Where you see them actively courting neo Nazis and the like, I see those groups attaching themselves to the GOP. And they’re always denounced by the majority.

Just to underline it - Gosar was welcomed on stage directly after it was reported he gave a keynote at a white nationalist event. He wasn't punished, quietly disinvited, or anything. He was given a voice on that stage today.

Edit: I want to be clear that Gosar however did distance himself from the remarks about violence that Fuentes said. That's fine and all but this is part of how Gosar explained himself as covered in this WaPo piece

Gosar did not mention the Friday night conference by name from the CPAC stage, but in a short interview afterward, he said he was referring to Fuentes’s remarks.

Gosar, who had led Arizona Republicans in challenging the electoral vote on Jan. 6, said he had accepted the AFPAC invitation to reach an audience of young conservatives.

“We thought about it, and we thought: There is a group of young people that are becoming part of the election process, and becoming a bigger force,” Gosar said. “So why not take that energy and listen to what they’ve got to say?”

Asked whether he regretted attending the event, Gosar said “you don’t accomplish anything by isolating” and refusing to speak to some audiences.

“It’s always about the debate,” he said. “That’s how you grow.”

...

As I said, I believe they’re more racist than not. But I feel it’s born more out of systemic racism within our nation itself that’s casually accepting of that history and thus not a GOP hallmark, as well as a misguided and wrongheaded reaction to BLM and other activism that’s trying to show the country that systemic racism. Since those groups are usually leftist, Republicans oppose them. Oftentimes not realizing that by doing so, they are exhibiting racist behavior.

If you ask an overwhelming number of Republicans if they’re racist, they’ll deny it vehemently. A true white supremacist institution would wear that badge with honor.

The problem with this analysis is that it is not dynamic enough IMO. The conditions have been shifting rapidly. The Republicans are accelerating alignment specifically because of what happened on 1/6. There was a moment that there appeared to be in-fighting in the GOP about becoming less extreme or maybe an internal fracture. Trump somehow consolidated power over the last few weeks and now we are seeing members aligning more openly with white nationalism again. The pace of transformation here is the concern. We'll know a whole lot more in the coming weeks and months but these are ominous signs supposed odal runes or not.

[hepcat]

I think you've lost sight of what I originally disagreed with. At no point have I stated they're not racist to some degree (as you yourself frequently say, it's a systemic issue. ). However, I don't think they're shaping stages like Nazi icons to get some coveted skinhead vote.

[malchior]

I think you've lost sight of what I originally disagreed with. At no point have I stated they're not racist to some degree (as you yourself frequently say, a large portion of white America is). However, I don't think they're shaping stages like Nazi icons to get some coveted skinhead vote.

Fair enough. I'm not 100% convinced either but I think it merits investigation. Journalistically to be clear. In any event, the concern is that there is almost certainly an increase in alignment happening. The experts on white nationalism keep pointing it out. Also this doesn't have to be some big conspiracy. It could have been a small group or individual sneaking in a symbol.

[hepcat]

Key words being "a small group or individual".

However, I think some folks are seeing intent in coincidence.

[Smoove_B]

However, I don't think they're shaping stages like Nazi icons to get some coveted skinhead vote.

I think the larger party is shrugging its shoulders at what was first a casual association with racist extremists. And when the voters increased their support as the GOP lurched into the white supremacist circles (language, messaging), the GOP took it as tacit approval that they were headed in the right direction (no pun intended). Instead of immediately and completely ejecting any of these lunatics from the party, they've given them some space on the platform because apparently a lot a people don't identify as white supremacists or overt racists but vote for the GOP when the party supports those that do.

[malchior]

I think it is important to note that Trump is the biggest driving force. The very serious people like McConnell and Cheney are absolutely against the alignment because they know it is a shrinking pool of support. That however increases the danger that the GOP may have to take more extreme action to stay relevant. Whether that remains purely 'legalistic' aka gerrymandering and voter suppression seems unlikely considering what happened on 1/6.

The important thing IMO is that this is behind the dynamic we are seeing that is accelerating this type of conduct. The moment of truth was the impeachment trial/right after. If Trump had been pushed out, they might have snapped back into racist-lite/systemic territory. Instead, he consolidated control and that alignment and entanglement with white hate will likely continue to deepen. That has led already to individuals taking up new opportunities to push on the lines.

[hepcat]

I’m less concerned about the GOP starting a race war and more concerned with them starting a civil war. It’s their growing inability to distinguish truth from fiction, especially when it involves the cult of personality that is the Trumps, that worries me more. I feel like they’re always one lie away from another January 6th most of the time. It looked like that might not be the case in the immediate aftermath of that day, but lately they seem to be backsliding into it again.

[Remus West]

A true, hard core white supremacist wouldn’t deny it. They’d be proud of it.

You keep saying that but it is only true for a small portion of them. Subtle racists are happy to deny in public and live their hate in private and through their policy.

I don’t think there’s any need to elevate the GOP as a whole to comic book villain status sending out secret signals that it’s time to kill all the minorities That kind of exaggeration doesn’t help. And it’s the kind of conspiracy theory we rail against with Trump and his followers.

I don't think they are to the level of actively killing anyone right now. They are certainly courting those who are though. They are also not even slightly disturbed when it happens.

[Remus West]

I’m less concerned about the GOP starting a race war and more concerned with them starting a civil war. It’s their growing inability to distinguish truth from fiction, especially when it involves the cult of personality that is the Trumps, that worries me more. I feel like they’re always one lie away from another January 6th most of the time. It looked like that might not be the case in the immediate aftermath of that day, but lately they seem to be backsliding into it again.

Is there going to be much difference between a race war or a civil war started by the GOP?

[hepcat]

A true, hard core white supremacist wouldn’t deny it. They’d be proud of it.

You keep saying that but it is only true for a small portion of them. Subtle racists are happy to deny in public and live their hate in private and through their policy.

There’s such a thing as a subtle hardcore white supremacist?

I’m less concerned about the GOP starting a race war and more concerned with them starting a civil war. It’s their growing inability to distinguish truth from fiction, especially when it involves the cult of personality that is the Trumps, that worries me more. I feel like they’re always one lie away from another January 6th most of the time. It looked like that might not be the case in the immediate aftermath of that day, but lately they seem to be backsliding into it again.

Is there going to be much difference between a race war or a civil war started by the GOP?

Yes, as I stated, I’m less concerned they’re going to start a race war.

[malchior]

A true, hard core white supremacist wouldn’t deny it. They’d be proud of it.

You keep saying that but it is only true for a small portion of them. Subtle racists are happy to deny in public and live their hate in private and through their policy.

There’s such a thing as a subtle hardcore white supremacist?

Yes. The vast majority are believed to be underground with several having infiltrated or been recruited from law enforcement and/or the military.

Yes, as I stated, I’m less concerned they’re going to start a race war.

I think the point here is that the GOP wants power and it is looking like they care less and less about who they need to appeal to and win over to get it. If they kick off a civil war that looks like a race war or vice versa we quickly won't care about this distinction. It also isn't that these folks are ideologically homogenous. It is a vast soup of hate.

Several of the people identified in the 1/6 attack were Oathkeepers and Proud Boys who are way more neo-fascist than white hate though there are elements. The woman from PA who was tied by her ex-boyfriend to the theft of Nancy Pelosi's laptop has been tied to fashwave alt-right white supremacist's. At the capitol attack, she was running around in a green t-shirt and a leather jacket - it wasn't obvious that she is a white supremacist. That's part of the problem identifying these elements. This is beginning to look a lot like an insurgency.

So in the end a civil war might end up having undercurrents of white supremacists 'accelerating' the end of our democracy. In fact, acceleration is one of their stated goals - in effect some of the groups tenets include the idea that they can't get their desired political results inside our current system. Many of the fashwave white supremacists and the Boogaloo folks (who aren't all white nationalists) believe this.

[Kraken]

I think you've lost sight of what I originally disagreed with. At no point have I stated they're not racist to some degree (as you yourself frequently say, a large portion of white America is). However, I don't think they're shaping stages like Nazi icons to get some coveted skinhead vote.

Fair enough. I'm not 100% convinced either but I think it merits investigation. Journalistically to be clear. In any event, the concern is that there is almost certainly an increase in alignment happening. The experts on white nationalism keep pointing it out. Also this doesn't have to be some big conspiracy. It could have been a small group or individual sneaking in a symbol.

Snopes is on the job.

We have reached out to CPAC to learn more about their choice of stage and will update this post as more information becomes available.

The shape of the Nazi symbol is eerily similar to the shape of the stage at CPAC. However, we are presently unable to confirm whether this was a deliberate choice made by the event organizers. At the moment, we rate this claim as “Unproven.”

[Smoove_B]

Well, if there's one thing I'm expecting CPAC to do it's to confirm to Snopes tomorrow that they intentionally designed a stage to look like Nazi / White Supremacist symbology. Find someone that works in set design or stagecraft that can come up with a logical reason it's shaped that way. I've been waiting now for 2 days and it hasn't happened.

[malchior]

I missed it earlier but one of the people behind the parent org tweeted this - essentially 'we have Jewish friends'. Notice he totally doesn't address the controversy in a substantive way instead he is falling back to victimhood hyperbole.

[malchior]

The word of the day is "Politburo" -- back away slowly.

[Holman]

Maybe the key to getting the GOP nomination is to kill as many Americans as you can get away with?

(But the DeSantis skew surely reflects the fact the audience is mostly Floridians.)

[hepcat]

Do other past presidents refer to themselves as President so and so after leaving office? Or is that just a Trump thing, like masturbating to his own picture during rallies?

[Holman]

Do other past presidents refer to themselves as President so and so after leaving office? Or is that just a Trump thing, like masturbating to his own picture during rallies?

Past presidents are referred to as (e.g.) "President Carter" by others as an honorific, but only Trump would do it to himself.

[Skinypupy]

Maybe the key to getting the GOP nomination is to kill as many Americans as you can get away with?

(But the DeSantis skew surely reflects the fact the audience is mostly Floridians.)

This is the contest to determine who is the shittiest, most horrible, most racist, most awful garbage person, right?

[Remus West]

Maybe the key to getting the GOP nomination is to kill as many Americans as you can get away with?

(But the DeSantis skew surely reflects the fact the audience is mostly Floridians.)

This is the contest to determine who is the shittiest, most horrible, most racist, most awful garbage person, right?

Ummm...he did say it was for the GOP nomination. Why you gotta be redundant?