Political Randomness

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Defiant
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant »

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has suspended Jeremy Corbyn from the party over his reaction to a highly critical report on anti-Semitism.

The human rights watchdog found Labour responsible for "unlawful" harassment and discrimination during Mr Corbyn's years in charge of the party.
The investigation found evidence of 23 instances of "inappropriate involvement" by Mr Corbyn's office, included staff influencing decisions on suspensions or whether to investigate a claim.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-5473042

Good riddance.
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The Meal
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by The Meal »

Have received about 50 spam text messages in regards to my Colorado ballot. Mostly trying to influence my decision on proposals, but a few elected positions in the mix as well.

My daughter is paid by a coalition against one of the proposals and has let me know some of the funny stories behind their own phone bank. Her favorite story was a response from one of the people who was reached out to. He simply responded to the text with "#MAGA". The phone bank individual was not to be dissuaded and responded with a "Make America Great Again by voting against...?" She received a second response that said "Ha, you got me. I've just been responding to all political texts that way as it's the quickest way to get off the list, but I actually already voted and did vote against this proposal." She also had one of her phone bank people, who'd received a non-related political text herself, recruit from that texter to get the sender to volunteer for the cause that she and my daughter are involved in.

The goal of the texts is obviously visibility and action in the voting booth, but interaction with the textee (of persuasive nature) is also encouraged. She and her team are also under "Fox News decorum rules," in that if someone from Fox News were to get ahold of one of their texts or responses, it wouldn't reflect negatively on their cause. They are under no obligation to respond to every response they get, which is good because their cause is protecting women's rights during pregnancies and they get a lot of riled up responses in the vein of "baby killers" and advice on the direct manner of removing themselves from the gene pool they should undertake (which seems like some mixed messaging from the other side...).
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by gilraen »

The number of political texts I got this year must be some kind of a record. But the Colorado ballot did have quite a few proposals and amendments; feels like more than an average year.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

MI
Two right-wing fraudsters charged in an alleged robocall scheme to spread misinformation in order to intimidate Black voters in Detroit and other cities were ordered Wednesday to call back the victims and admit the messages were false and illegal.

Calling the voter-suppression scheme “electoral terror” that harks back to the days of the Ku Klux Klan, U.S. District Court Judge Victor Marrero ordered Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman to make the follow-up calls by 5 p.m. on Thursday or face contempt of court charges.
...
Marrero ordered the duo “to issue a message to all recipients of the robocalls informing them about this Court’s finding that Defendants’ original message contained false statements that have had the effect of intimidating voters, and thus interfering with the upcoming presidential election, in violation of federal voting-rights laws.”

Marrero also prohibited the duo from making any more robocalls or sending text messages intended to disenfranchise voters.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Paingod »

I think there must be a secret plot against right-wing politicians and supporters. We so so many of them getting wrapped up in scandals and criminal activity, but so disproportionately outnumbering the left-wing folks that get caught.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Alefroth »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:50 pm MI
Two right-wing fraudsters charged in an alleged robocall scheme to spread misinformation in order to intimidate Black voters in Detroit and other cities were ordered Wednesday to call back the victims and admit the messages were false and illegal.

Calling the voter-suppression scheme “electoral terror” that harks back to the days of the Ku Klux Klan, U.S. District Court Judge Victor Marrero ordered Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman to make the follow-up calls by 5 p.m. on Thursday or face contempt of court charges.
...
Marrero ordered the duo “to issue a message to all recipients of the robocalls informing them about this Court’s finding that Defendants’ original message contained false statements that have had the effect of intimidating voters, and thus interfering with the upcoming presidential election, in violation of federal voting-rights laws.”

Marrero also prohibited the duo from making any more robocalls or sending text messages intended to disenfranchise voters.
What happens if they don't call all 12000 by tonight?
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

In the event Defendants fail to do so, the Court will hold a hearing on Friday, October 30, 2020 at 10:00 a.m. to review the status of Defendants’ compliance with this Order and give Defendants an opportunity to show cause why they should not be held in contempt of court for any noncompliance the Court finds.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Paingod »

For the last two days my wife has been struggling to "understand" the Conservative viewpoint and how it gets them to back Trump.

I've only been able to share with her my belief that being Conservative:
  • Is an ideal that may look better on paper than it does in practice, like Communism. Once you get people involved, they corrupt the concept beyond redemption. Ex: It sounds great to just let businesses regulate themselves, but if you do they throw all ethics out the window in pursuit of profits. See also: Rainforests, Flint Michigan, Wells Fargo, etc.
  • Is a concept that has changed drastically in the last 40 years. The Conservatives of 1980 are very different people from the Conservatives of 2020. It doesn't seem like there's any room left to actually have civil debates since we're no longer arguing policy with them, but rather seem to have shifted to personal and religious values and policy is a veneer.
  • No longer fits in a world where regulations are needed to save humanity from itself. It's going to take real change at the top levels to push society towards a more sustainable model - change no one is doing willingly - and even then we're probably too late.
  • Can fall apart when someone stops and does a deep dive on their core issues that keep them there. Ex: Elizabeth Warren's shift from Republican to Democrat once she delved into the bankruptcy issues she blamed people for abusing, coming back up to realize instead that companies were preying on people and driving them to it by rigging the systems. My wife's father had his own shift years ago, moving from Conservative to Independent.
  • Has become the default party for intolerant and/or ignorant (Deplorable) people. This wasn't always the case, but that "base" has cemented itself there and has no where else to go - and the people who want to call themselves Conservative but aren't intolerant/ignorant aren't in great enough numbers to form their own effective party.
I welcome the thoughts and corrections of anyone who has a better understanding of what it means to be a real Conservative in today's world.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by YellowKing »

Paingod wrote:I welcome the thoughts and corrections of anyone who has a better understanding of what it means to be a real Conservative in today's world.
I can speak to what made me a conservative for 25 years.

The biggest core principle that I adhered to was "personal responsibility." Most of my life I was raised by a single mom working minimum wage. We weren't on welfare, we weren't on food stamps. We scraped by.

Through that, it was ingrained in me very early that if you're willing to put in the work, you can support yourself without relying on the government. That extended to all aspects of life - my school work, etc. It also extended to making mistakes. If I broke something, my mom expected me to fix it or replace it. While she was always there for my brother and I, she was not there to shield us from blame. If we screwed up, we paid the consequences.

Now combine that with a regular Christian upbringing. Church every Sunday and sometimes Wednesday night if the mood struck. Vacation Bible School in the summer. In the church world, there are no shades of gray. You're either on the path to Jesus or you're a sinner going to Hell.

When you combine this all together, you get the recipe for someone who A) Sees the world in black and white, with a grossly oversimplified view of "how things should be" and B) Assumes "taking personal responsibility" is equally as easy for all people.

That last point - privilege - is the piece that took me the longest to wrap my head around. I had left the religious stuff behind long ago, which is why I no longer adhered to most of the conservative social agenda. However, in everything else I believed anyone - given the right work ethic - would achieve equal success. And why should the wealthy be punished? They earned their money. If you're not a millionaire, then it's because you haven't worked hard enough at it.

I only broke out of that mentality because the social issues kept dividing me from the party. When the GOP agenda became more about which bathroom you used than tax policy, I started questioning what I was actually supporting. I don't know how you create that divide with people who are still strongly religious. That's not a switch you can turn off and on. Religious belief is built on "faith" IE - I don't care if there's no evidence, I'm going to believe it anyway. Is it any wonder the same people have no problem denying climate change, or Covid, or anything else they don't like?

That said, I no MANY people who are spiritual and are regular church goers who are proud Democrats. But they're also really compassionate people who care about others. I think the compassion and empathy is what's missing from the modern conservative party. It's tribalism taken to its most extreme, and if you're not a straight white Christian then you can GTFO.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

I'm not sure in which thread this should go:


Spoiler:
“In June, Carl wrote that...the narrative of Black oppression in America is ‘based fundamentally on lies and slander about white people.’”
It's just another member of the administration who is a white supremist. The thing that makes this different is that he was one of my older brother's good friends growing up and was around our house all the time. My parents are still friends with his parents. :doh:
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Paingod »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:27 amHowever, in everything else I believed anyone - given the right work ethic - would achieve equal success. And why should the wealthy be punished? They earned their money. If you're not a millionaire, then it's because you haven't worked hard enough at it.
I don't specifically feel the wealthy should be punished, but a guy I knew once a long time ago made a lot of sense to me when he said something along the lines of "If you're making millions of dollars a year, you're really not working for that. You've stolen it from someone and taxation takes it back to put it to good use." He was in favor of returning to pre-World War taxation rates that had the robber-barons of the US paying up to 90% of their income back to the country.

I want to personally succeed, and my household is into six figures - as long as both my wife and I keep working. Still, if someone told me I could ensure no one ever had to choose between living in massive debt or dying of a curable illness by simply giving up 40% of my income I'd be willing to do that. Yes, we'd have to tighten our belts a little. Belts that are still incredibly loose compared to people in the lower tax brackets. When I hear that someone making $400,000 or more might have their own quality of life impacted by higher taxes, I can only scoff. By comparison, their belts are to mine what mine is to someone who works part time at McDonalds is. We'd still live well, and they'd still be living better than us... but those people at the bottom and millions of others wouldn't need to worry if they can survive getting sick or injured.

No economy in human history has been built for equality. Every single one has been a pyramid, not a square or circle. There will always need to be FAR more people at the bottom than at the top. It takes a lot of hard work in dirty places to make the gears of economy churn. That hard work isn't being done by decision makers and policy setters. It's being done by people at the bottom, getting their hands dirty, their lungs filled with chemical fumes, their backs injured, their skin calloused.

Even if everyone were cloned from the same stock and identical in drive and skill, we'd still have to create a pyramid in order to have a sustainable system for everyone to be a part of. If the top of the pyramid isn't helping the bottom, then I'm okay with the government stepping in to make it happen.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

The modern conservative movement was born in direct reaction to the Civil Rights movement.

Far more than some Edmund Burke-style set of principles, the American Right is about "conserving" white privilege in the social, economic, and political realms. This has never been clearer than now.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by pr0ner »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:50 pm MI
Two right-wing fraudsters charged in an alleged robocall scheme to spread misinformation in order to intimidate Black voters in Detroit and other cities were ordered Wednesday to call back the victims and admit the messages were false and illegal.

Calling the voter-suppression scheme “electoral terror” that harks back to the days of the Ku Klux Klan, U.S. District Court Judge Victor Marrero ordered Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman to make the follow-up calls by 5 p.m. on Thursday or face contempt of court charges.
...
Marrero ordered the duo “to issue a message to all recipients of the robocalls informing them about this Court’s finding that Defendants’ original message contained false statements that have had the effect of intimidating voters, and thus interfering with the upcoming presidential election, in violation of federal voting-rights laws.”

Marrero also prohibited the duo from making any more robocalls or sending text messages intended to disenfranchise voters.
Mr. Fed appears to disagree with this being ordered.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

America gets a well-deserved subtweet from the German ambassador.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Zarathud »

NPR had some interviews of young conservatives complaining of being oppressed on college campuses and the liberal values being taught in class and culture. In their mind, the values their parents taught could not be challenged because they “could not believe” they might be wrong or that the world might have injustices or that things might be broken. They were victims for having their beliefs challenged, and they weren’t asking or expecting anything more than anyone else.

Privilege is a pretty good word to cover it. They pretend the world is fair and as they wish. The discomfort in being challenged turns into stubborn pride.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by noxiousdog »

Paingod, you're making it too binary.

All the issues are spectrums, and each person has issues they care more about. Mix in some bias and it's easy to be a conservative.

That of course divorces ideology from party affiliation. Nobody will mistake me for a liberal, but I can't imagine ever voting for a Republican. Most people don't care about politics and policy enough to dive deep enough to see if their philosophies actually match the political party though.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Little Raven »

You can't fight extremism with extremism.

A relatively short essay, well worth a read. This is something we're going to have to confront if Tuesday goes I expect. (Trump & co. get pasted)
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by RunningMn9 »

YellowKing wrote:I think the compassion and empathy is what's missing from the modern conservative party.
I think conservatives would vociferously object to that.

Within their sphere of caring, then can be incredibly compassionate, generous and empathetic.

Where I think conservatives have blind spots is in their inability (or lack of awareness) for other points of view, or other experiences. They rely too much on their personal experience and a belief that it is much more universal than it is.

They complain that college liberalizes their children, but it isn’t as much indoctrination, as a sudden expansion of what they are exposed to. Suddenly you can meet and get first hand knowledge of radically difference experiences.

That can make you open to greater empathy towards situations that you haven’t directly encountered. I’ve had conversations with my dad where I have to sit and hear that racism is actually reverse racism now, because he has an affluent African-American friend whose kids were picked on for behaving too white.

He only sees that, and projects that out as if that is what’s happening everywhere out in the world. OF COURSE that happens, but the incidence rate of that is dwarfed by regular old racism. But he hasn’t directly seen it, so he doesn’t get it.

He doesn’t see first hand the impact of climate change, so he doesn’t believe it’s as dire as some say. He hasn’t been impacted by COVID, so he’s starting to believe it’s no big deal and everything should open up.

There’s nothing sinister about these beliefs, there’s just no awareness that his personal experience doesn’t really mean jack squat when it comes to how the world really is. His personal experience is everything.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

Buncha snowflakes with no empathy.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by malchior »

Someone forgot to supervise Stephen Miller. :Vomit:

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Unagi »

Can’t wait for the : National Day for When that Black Family Moved into our Neighborhood Memorial
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Little Raven »

Jesus Christ. That's pathetic even by Trump standards.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

They started with racism and they're ending with racism.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Jaymann »

At first I thought they were talking about UFO's.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Kraken »

How about a day of remembrance for undocumented migrants killed by American citizens? Probably a much larger cohort.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

I can only imagine the insanity he's going to declare when (!!) he's a lame duck.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Jaymann »

Maybe they could do a memorial to the 250,000 Covid19 victims. Nah, let's take one last stab at brown people, it will help with the Latino vote in Texas.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Alefroth »

Smoove_B wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:10 am I can only imagine the insanity he's going to declare when (!!) he's a lame duck.
Maybe he's laying the groundwork for an insanity defense.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by stessier »

I really expected that to fail a fact check,. Wow.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LawBeefaroni »

stessier wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:11 pm I really expected that to fail a fact check,. Wow.
The Trump Administration has like a +14 against fact check. All their insane shit is real.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Daehawk »

2 decades ago this stuff that the GOP and Pres say and do would have been political suicide. Now it just draws more in.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by gbasden »

Little Raven wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:10 pm You can't fight extremism with extremism.

A relatively short essay, well worth a read. This is something we're going to have to confront if Tuesday goes I expect. (Trump & co. get pasted)
I'll admit that I'm struggling *a lot* with this:
They also become more extreme, he said, when they feel their political opponents are not just wrong, but evil—“almost the devil.”
The Republicans, to me, do seem to continue to do things that I believe are straight up evil. Voter suppression and disenfranchisement, accelerating a pandemic, stoking white supremacy and encouraging xenophobia just scratch the surface. This hasn't pushed me to change my core policy beliefs, but it certainly has radicalized me as to how the Democrats could potentially govern. We absolutely cannot afford another two years like the first two years of the Obama administration where we pretend everything is fixed and we are back to normal. If the D's take have the Presidency and Congress they *must* take actions to counteract the systemic issues that got us here.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by gbasden »

RunningMn9 wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:06 pm
YellowKing wrote:I think the compassion and empathy is what's missing from the modern conservative party.
I think conservatives would vociferously object to that.

Within their sphere of caring, then can be incredibly compassionate, generous and empathetic.
My issue with this is that you don't always need direct experience to be empathetic. How hard is it to relate to the 500 children that the administration separated from their families with no care as to how to reunite them? How difficult is it to see video of police whaling on protestors unprovoked and be able to put yourselves in their shoes? I get that there are areas where experience matters a lot, but many conservatives consistently seem to be unable to have the slightest shred of empathy for anybody that isn't exactly like them.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by RunningMn9 »

YOU don’t think it’s hard to have empathy for things you don’t experience. They simply don’t have it. It doesn’t effect them in any way, which allows them to whatabout it and think that it’s not that big a deal.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Smoove_B »

Right because it turns into "well if they didn't want to lose those kids, they shouldn't have come here illegally" or "if they weren't looting and throwing cans of soup during the protest, they wouldn't be getting gassed and beaten by the police" or "if they just didn't have sex before marriage, they wouldn't need to abort babies". It's endless. There's no empathy because there's a justification for everything.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

Smoove_B wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:32 pm Right because it turns into "well if they didn't want to lose those kids, they shouldn't have come here illegally" or "if they weren't looting and throwing cans of soup during the protest, they wouldn't be getting gassed and beaten by the police" or "if they just didn't have sex before marriage, they wouldn't need to abort babies". It's endless. There's no empathy because there's a justification for everything.
Right. Narrative is everything.

Having grown up in the South, I've heard from plenty of my parents' generation who describe the Civil Rights movement as a time of riots and lawlessness. I've even had someone tell me he switched from Democrat to Republican in the late 60s because he "saw how black protesters grabbed policemen and tried to pull them off down their horses, and the media never reported on that."

Obviously this person was a success of the GOP's Southern Strategy, but the story he told himself allowed him to justify the switch because it made ordinary protesters (and the media) the bad guys. Once you buy that story, justice is no longer an issue and you're not guilty of complicity in injustice.

Go look at pictures of 1950s/60s white students taunting the first black students of integration. They're still alive, and they're still voting.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by malchior »

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

Maybe Barr and Mrs. Barr should get out on their lawn and wave some guns around?
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Jaymann »

I want to see them go after Tucker Carlson for not releasing the Hunter Biden documents.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by gbasden »

RunningMn9 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:27 pm YOU don’t think it’s hard to have empathy for things you don’t experience. They simply don’t have it. It doesn’t effect them in any way, which allows them to whatabout it and think that it’s not that big a deal.
Right. Maybe it's splitting hairs, but only having empathy for your close knit circle and people exactly like you doesn't really count as empathy in my book. To me, that's almost the opposite of empathy. But YMMV.
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