Political Randomness

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El Guapo
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

Pyperkub wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:49 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:55 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:38 pm Another honest question. Are the two equivalent? Equivalent can mean whatever you want it to mean. Under the law, in your eyes, in the political system's eyes, in the nation's eyes, in the victim's eyes. Whatever. Just clarify which, if you respond, please.
Well, Franken hasn't been accused of sexually assaulting a minor. That's sort of a league all it's own in terms of awfulness.
Franken also doesn't/didn't campaign on being a christian saint, though he did campaign on women's rights. I think the hypocrisy is a bit less. Franken is also willing to call out his own behavior and issue a mea culpa.

What he did was obviously rather fucked up, but (as yet) doesn't appear to be a pattern, and (if a pattern doesn't emerge), can conceivably be addressed with a phone call and apology.

I don't think he's anywhere in the same ballpark as Moore (groping underage girls who he took the clothes off, is a bit different from a tasteless joke photo with an adult who probably could have kicked his ass), but still should never have been put in the position where she wishes she had.
Yeah, campaigning on being a Christian saint would be a poor fit for Franken.
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Re: Political Randomness

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So I believe firmly that Franken should take his medicine for this actions and who gives a frig if it hurts our side. If he has to step down and we lose a seat then so be it. Hopefully the democratic party is so morally bankrupt where that can't censor their own members for bad behavior.

And this a great moment for the democrats to show unity in enforcing what most of feel is bad behavior. The senate should perform an ethics investigation, Franken should cooperate, and whatever type of censor is decided upon should be enforced. Frankly, I do not know that could be but I am glad we are starting to take these allegations more seriously. The more this is exposed the better we have to reduce this behavior especially when it comes to powerful men in political office.

I am hoping this is a moment where true colors will be shown. I have a lot more hope that the democrats will handle this better than what has become normal for the ruling class.
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Re: Political Randomness

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I do not see this as a loss for our side. I see it as an opportunity to show how things like this should be handled.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Re: Political Randomness

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First Louis C. K. and now Al Franken? Man, I'm discouraged. On a certain level I can understand a comedian spontaneously doing something unfunny, they always have hits and misses. But coupled with his insistence on "rehearsing" the kiss, it is just creepy.

But why Trump wasn't crucified for "pussy grabbing" I will never understand.
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Re: Political Randomness

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tjg_marantz wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:14 pm
Anytime anyone infers that attending a church makes you a better person then the person they are attempting to bash I just want to ... disagree politely.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Holman wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:01 pm
Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:58 pm So what happens if it turns out to be fake?
Suppose it did. (It won't.) Would it invalidate all of the other accusations, none of which Allred had anything to do with?
Of course not but as with all allegations there should be proof. There have been a few accusations but no proof.

For instance the manager of the mall at the time has said Moore wasn't banned.

In the end more actual evidence is needed as there is less evidence here than even what there was against Bill Clinton. Now I admittedly have no idea whether he is guilty of doing this but if he did I am sure some actual concrete evidence will show up. If it doesn't then he should get a pass just like Clinton did.

In fact I would say there is more evidence that the elder Bush was/is a perv than there is that Moore was/is.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Scoop20906 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:17 pm
tjg_marantz wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:14 pm
Anytime anyone infers that attending a church makes you a better person then the person they are attempting to bash I just want to ... disagree politely.
I also would dispute the characterization of that remark as a "quip".
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Re: Political Randomness

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Re: Political Randomness

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tjg_marantz wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:36 pm
I think that immeasurably boosts Franken's chances of surviving this with his seat intact (assuming that there aren't other credible allegations surfacing later).
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Re: Political Randomness

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It makes a huge difference in my mind that Franken stated that he believed her account, apologized for his actions, and showed remorse.

Moore and Trump call the women liars and martyr themselves as the target of a witch hunt.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Polanski's victim forgave him and wants the charges dropped. Sometimes the victim's opinion doesn't carry much weight.

In this case I agree that he'll likely survive this, barring as you say, more allegations.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:21 pm
Holman wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:01 pm
Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:58 pm So what happens if it turns out to be fake?
Suppose it did. (It won't.) Would it invalidate all of the other accusations, none of which Allred had anything to do with?
Of course not but as with all allegations there should be proof. There have been a few accusations but no proof.

For instance the manager of the mall at the time has said Moore wasn't banned.

In the end more actual evidence is needed as there is less evidence here than even what there was against Bill Clinton. Now I admittedly have no idea whether he is guilty of doing this but if he did I am sure some actual concrete evidence will show up. If it doesn't then he should get a pass just like Clinton did.

In fact I would say there is more evidence that the elder Bush was/is a perv than there is that Moore was/is.
Evidence of past interpersonal behavior is hard to come by. Moore would likely survive a trial without legal punishment. An election, however, is not a trial.

The accusations are out there, and you can't wish them away. The stories add up. The women leveling them (some of them [maybe all of them?] Republicans) have nothing to gain here. They're not being paid, they're getting only the worst kind of public notice, and they're probably receiving death threats. So why did they come forward? How do you so easily dismiss them?

I kind of feel that you would see this differently if they were accusing Doug Jones.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Max Peck »

Huh.

Stone appeared to know Franken allegation was coming
Former Trump campaign adviser Roger Stone appeared to know there were sexual misconduct allegations involving Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) hours before they became public.

Stone has been banned from Twitter, but at 1 a.m. on Thursday morning an account connected to him tweeted a quote from the Republican political operative.

"Roger Stone says it's Al Franken's 'time in the barrel'. Franken next in long list of Democrats to be accused of 'grabby' behavior," read the tweet from Enter the Stone Zone.

Enter the Stone Zone is an account that claims to share "political commentary" from Stone.

Hours later, Leeann Tweeden, a KABC-AM news anchor, accused Franken of kissing and groping her without her consent in 2006. Tweeden said the incidents occurred during a USO tour to entertain troops abroad. She also tweeted a photograph of Franken as evidence.

The photo sparked outrage on social media, and Franken apologized for the incident and said he would cooperate with a Senate ethics investigation into the matter.

After Tweeden's account went public, Enter The Stone Zone tweeted again, sharing a Politico report about the allegations.
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Re: Political Randomness

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GreenGoo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:41 pm Polanski's victim forgave him and wants the charges dropped. Sometimes the victim's opinion doesn't carry much weight.

In this case I agree that he'll likely survive this, barring as you say, more allegations.
Polanski's misconduct (as I understand it, anyway) was far more serious than Franken's - didn't Polanski rape people? I'm admittedly hazy in my recollection of what exactly he did.
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Re: Political Randomness

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I was dismissive of the NRSC Jones +12 poll, but Fox News is a significant pollster, and IIRC their last poll had the race as a tie pre-allegations.

Still need to see some more polls before I start to believe that Jones is better than a slight underdog, even now.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Re: Political Randomness

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So it turns out Moore's lawyer lied about him being the judge for her divorce proceedings.
The evidence Roy Moore’s lawyer offered Wednesday evening to attempt to discredit a sexual-misconduct accuser turns out to have not been correct. In addition to suggesting Moore’s signature in accuser Beverly Young Nelson’s 1977 yearbook was fraudulent, the Alabama Republican Senate nominee’s lawyers claimed Nelson had lied about never contacting Moore following an alleged rape attempt because Moore had presided over her 1999 divorce case. As it turns out, all of the initial proceedings were overseen by a different district judge, W.D. Russell, and the only connection to Moore was that his office rubber-stamped a document requesting a dismissal of the case. Moore never actually had contact with Nelson.
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Re: Political Randomness

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:03 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:41 pm Polanski's victim forgave him and wants the charges dropped. Sometimes the victim's opinion doesn't carry much weight.

In this case I agree that he'll likely survive this, barring as you say, more allegations.
Polanski's misconduct (as I understand it, anyway) was far more serious than Franken's - didn't Polanski rape people? I'm admittedly hazy in my recollection of what exactly he did.
Polanski plea-bargained down to a charge of statutory rape of 13-year-old girl. His victim "forgave" him after he settled a civil suit, supposedly to the tune of $500,000+.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Scoop20906 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:13 pm I do not see this as a loss for our side. I see it as an opportunity to show how things like this should be handled.
IMHO, he is. He is throwing himself at the mercy of the ethics probe and requesting it. This is a far cry from Moore's shoot the messenger and the accusers and their witnesses and blaming it on the other side. Also a far cry from Clinton's evasiveness and hiding behind lawyerly equivocation, or O'Reilly's hiding behind settlement NDA's and buying his way out of trouble.

It would also serve to make both the dialog and punishment public, while keeping the dialog going in the public eye, rather than slinking away and hoping it goes away.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Dialogue.
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Re: Political Randomness

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tomahto!
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Political Randomness

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Max Peck wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:01 pm Huh.

Stone appeared to know Franken allegation was coming
Former Trump campaign adviser Roger Stone appeared to know there were sexual misconduct allegations involving Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) hours before they became public.

Stone has been banned from Twitter, but at 1 a.m. on Thursday morning an account connected to him tweeted a quote from the Republican political operative.

"Roger Stone says it's Al Franken's 'time in the barrel'. Franken next in long list of Democrats to be accused of 'grabby' behavior," read the tweet from Enter the Stone Zone.

Enter the Stone Zone is an account that claims to share "political commentary" from Stone.

Hours later, Leeann Tweeden, a KABC-AM news anchor, accused Franken of kissing and groping her without her consent in 2006. Tweeden said the incidents occurred during a USO tour to entertain troops abroad. She also tweeted a photograph of Franken as evidence.

The photo sparked outrage on social media, and Franken apologized for the incident and said he would cooperate with a Senate ethics investigation into the matter.

After Tweeden's account went public, Enter The Stone Zone tweeted again, sharing a Politico report about the allegations.
Not downplaying the accusation here, that photo is ugly. But, this is interesting. I also find it interesting that the woman making the charges is a Trump supporter and Hannity guest. Oh and now conservative radio shock jock anchor Melanie Morgan says that Franken harassed her after a Politically Incorrect episode. He called to argue with her and try to prove her wrong but it does not appear to be sexual at all in nature. One thing that seems clear is we are going to be hearing a lot more allegations involving people in positions of power as operatives start going eye for eye here.
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Re: Political Randomness

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:03 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:41 pm Polanski's victim forgave him and wants the charges dropped. Sometimes the victim's opinion doesn't carry much weight.

In this case I agree that he'll likely survive this, barring as you say, more allegations.
Polanski's misconduct (as I understand it, anyway) was far more serious than Franken's - didn't Polanski rape people? I'm admittedly hazy in my recollection of what exactly he did.
He drugged and sodomized a 14 year old. Or 13 year old.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Enough »

Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:21 pm
Holman wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:01 pm
Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:58 pm So what happens if it turns out to be fake?
Suppose it did. (It won't.) Would it invalidate all of the other accusations, none of which Allred had anything to do with?
Of course not but as with all allegations there should be proof. There have been a few accusations but no proof.

For instance the manager of the mall at the time has said Moore wasn't banned.
You mean the same manager who is voting for Moore and says no paperwork exists either way to prove or disprove it? So you have picked this one guy's memory vs the multiple ladies who have come forward to say dude was creepy af at the mall (including Trump voters and others who didn't get harassed but knew of his reputation)? :naughty:
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Re: Political Randomness

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Max Peck wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:15 pm Polanski plea-bargained down to a charge of statutory rape of 13-year-old girl. His victim "forgave" him after he settled a civil suit, supposedly to the tune of $500,000+.
13 years after he settled, as a 44 year old woman.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Rip »

Enough wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:32 pm
Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:21 pm
Holman wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:01 pm
Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:58 pm So what happens if it turns out to be fake?
Suppose it did. (It won't.) Would it invalidate all of the other accusations, none of which Allred had anything to do with?
Of course not but as with all allegations there should be proof. There have been a few accusations but no proof.

For instance the manager of the mall at the time has said Moore wasn't banned.
You mean the same manager who is voting for Moore and says no paperwork exists either way to prove or disprove it? So you have picked this one guy's memory vs the multiple ladies who have come forward to say dude was creepy af at the mall (including Trump voters and others who didn't get harassed but knew of his reputation)? :naughty:

I'm not picking one memory or another. I'm picking innocence without compelling evidence.

If there becomes at least as much evidence as there was that Clinton raped Broaddrick then I will accept that he is certainly guilty.

I don't think he is innocent either, I simply don't know with the available information. If enough comes out to show he did it, I hope he crawls in a ditch and disappears. Politically I don't care. It is and will continue to be a red seat no matter of a Democrat happens to grab it once when the cake walk music stops. We all know they will just be keeping it warm for a term.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:28 pm
Enough wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:32 pm
Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:21 pm
Holman wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:01 pm
Rip wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:58 pm So what happens if it turns out to be fake?
Suppose it did. (It won't.) Would it invalidate all of the other accusations, none of which Allred had anything to do with?
Of course not but as with all allegations there should be proof. There have been a few accusations but no proof.

For instance the manager of the mall at the time has said Moore wasn't banned.
You mean the same manager who is voting for Moore and says no paperwork exists either way to prove or disprove it? So you have picked this one guy's memory vs the multiple ladies who have come forward to say dude was creepy af at the mall (including Trump voters and others who didn't get harassed but knew of his reputation)? :naughty:

I'm not picking one memory or another. I'm picking innocence without compelling evidence.

If there becomes at least as much evidence as there was that Clinton raped Broaddrick then I will accept that he is certainly guilty.

I don't think he is innocent either, I simply don't know with the available information. If enough comes out to show he did it, I hope he crawls in a ditch and disappears. Politically I don't care. It is and will continue to be a red seat no matter of a Democrat happens to grab it once when the cake walk music stops. We all know they will just be keeping it warm for a term.
Did you actually "read" the WaPo article which started all of this?

As I mentioned previously, it is extremely well researched and corroborated. I can't say the same for the allegations since then, as I think the "me too!" so I can get my 15 minutes of fame and or a payday crowd senses blood, money and fame in the water, but the initial article is extremely damning, and if charges could be brought now, they probably would be based on that articles interviews alone.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

Side note re: Franken.

Apparently the radio host was also a Playboy cover model (also a bunny? unknown to me).

Should that make a difference?

Does it make a difference?

in both cases, the answer has to be no, and yet... it made me think about it more and gave me pause. Sign me up as a sexist arsehole, I guess. At least some of the time.
Last edited by Pyperkub on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

This is a good time to remember that Roy Moore would still be an awful and utterly unqualified candidate for the U.S. senate even if none of these allegations had ever surfaced.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

Pyperkub wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:44 pm Side note re: Franken.

Apparently the radio host was also a Playboy cover model (also a bunny? unknown to me).

Should that make a difference?

Does it make a difference?

in both cases, the answer has to be no, and yet... it made me think about it. Sign me up as a sexist arsehole, I guess. At least some of the time.
No difference.

People don't get a pass for groping former Playmates any more than they get a pass for assaulting women in short skirts.

In any case, Franken has confessed that he was wrong. His apology seems pretty full, and his victim has accepted it, which is more than can be said for literally any of the other harassers, pussygrabbers, rapists, and attempted rapists we're talking about.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Alefroth »

This seems like a very misleading headline-

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politics/ ... index.html

CNN says liberal groups are on the defensive, but then goes on to list numerous liberal groups that are on the offensive.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by YellowKing »

What do you expect from FAKE NEWS?
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Alefroth »

Enough wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:08 pm
Max Peck wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:01 pm Huh.

Stone appeared to know Franken allegation was coming
Former Trump campaign adviser Roger Stone appeared to know there were sexual misconduct allegations involving Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) hours before they became public.

Stone has been banned from Twitter, but at 1 a.m. on Thursday morning an account connected to him tweeted a quote from the Republican political operative.

"Roger Stone says it's Al Franken's 'time in the barrel'. Franken next in long list of Democrats to be accused of 'grabby' behavior," read the tweet from Enter the Stone Zone.

Enter the Stone Zone is an account that claims to share "political commentary" from Stone.

Hours later, Leeann Tweeden, a KABC-AM news anchor, accused Franken of kissing and groping her without her consent in 2006. Tweeden said the incidents occurred during a USO tour to entertain troops abroad. She also tweeted a photograph of Franken as evidence.

The photo sparked outrage on social media, and Franken apologized for the incident and said he would cooperate with a Senate ethics investigation into the matter.

After Tweeden's account went public, Enter The Stone Zone tweeted again, sharing a Politico report about the allegations.
Not downplaying the accusation here, that photo is ugly. But, this is interesting. I also find it interesting that the woman making the charges is a Trump supporter and Hannity guest. Oh and now conservative radio shock jock anchor Melanie Morgan says that Franken harassed her after a Politically Incorrect episode. He called to argue with her and try to prove her wrong but it does not appear to be sexual at all in nature. One thing that seems clear is we are going to be hearing a lot more allegations involving people in positions of power as operatives start going eye for eye here.
Now that those with a desire to deceive and manipulate have seen how damaging allegations can be, I think things are going to get very ugly. To the detriment as always of women who are the victims of assault and harassment.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Alefroth wrote:This seems like a very misleading headline-

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politics/ ... index.html

CNN says liberal groups are on the defensive, but then goes on to list numerous liberal groups that are on the offensive.
I applaud that all of this is getting covered and justice is growing, at the same time a lot of the coverage I have seen and heard has been significantly problematic. False equivalencies, cherry picking story points, injection of emotional opinion such that it counters objectivism. It seems like an example of why pundit based reporting is problematic.
All victimized people are clearly welcome to the rage train, I think it's dangerous for the news to be be an instigator of that rage.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Alefroth wrote:This seems like a very misleading headline-

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politics/ ... index.html

CNN says liberal groups are on the defensive, but then goes on to list numerous liberal groups that are on the offensive.
I applaud that all of this is getting covered and justice is growing, at the same time a lot of the coverage I have seen and heard has been significantly problematic. False equivalencies, cherry picking story points, injection of emotional opinion such that it counters objectivism. It seems like an example of why pundit based reporting is problematic.
All victimized people are clearly welcome to the rage train, I think it's dangerous for the news to be be an instigator of that rage.

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Moore is an even worse case - he was a freaking DA and an officer of the court committing what was most likely a felony offense (at least with the 14 year old). Special place in hell reserved for that one.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Zarathud »

It's almost like Roy Moore NEEDED those 10 Commandments on the courthouse steps to remind him not to be immoral every day.
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hepcat
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by hepcat »

He’s like Affleck’s character in Mallrats, for Christ’s sake.
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El Guapo
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »



Doesn't include a recent Change Research poll that came back with Jones +3 (after having Moore +4 late last week, admittedly after this story first broke).

Still don't know how this race is likely to play out. Still seems like a coin flip overall, at least for the moment. My gut says that Moore is still going to win this narrowly, because it's Alabama, and they really, really don't want to vote for a democrat.

It also seems like a write-in campaign is unlikely, and that the election's not going to be postponed. I'm also increasingly skeptical that the GOP will expel Moore if he wins.
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Defiant
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant »

I think there were a few more polls than that post scandal, one that had him up by 2 and one that had Jones up by 12. (Unless one/some of those is a later result of the same polls)
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