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Political Randomness

For discussion of religion and politics

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Defiant
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:34 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:22 pm


I just have trouble putting anti semitism on such a pedestal above all the other hatred and violence in the world.

The idea that one brand of racism is more or less out of bounds smacks to me of priviledge.
I don't think it should be - I think they should all be addressed. Although I think it's more prominent then you may think. For example, last year in terms of hate crimes, hate crimes against Jews (~1000) was second only to hate crimes against Black people (~2500) (and then keep in mind that there are more than six times as many African Americans as Jewish Americans). And then consider that the US is a lot better than most countries (see Europe, etc).

Though I will say that I also have added concern because I've seen what's happened in Britain with the Labour party with much concern, and I don't want to see the same thing happen here. Thankfully I still live in a country where I can consider one of the two major parties my home.
Last edited by Defiant on Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Combustible Lemur » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:35 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:47 pm

It gets to double standards and bias.

A liberal is vaguely anti Semitic. And its a national conversation.
The republican party embraces white nationalism on a daily basis when it suits their purposes and it's business as usual.

People suggest that Israeli lobbyists play on ethnic loyalties. And we're ushering in the next holocaust.

Many of these same people decrying how awful this trope usage is didn't blink an eye at shredding the constitution to show loyalty to a president over their country.

And remain relatively quiet over genocides across the world. Yemen, Rhohinga, China,

Save us the fucking pearl clutching.
And I sure as shit am not going to listen to any Republican say anything about a Muslim woman making unacceptable remarks.

To be clear. This "people are trying to say oh well" :she's been officially reprimanded dragged through the media, in danger of being censured, made enemies of her leadership, and continues to be harrased as a Muslim. Within months of being sworn in. How fucking long has Steve King just been cruising.

If that's whataboutism fine I'm okay with that. The Jewish people have had thousands of bad years and it's still going on. So have a lot of other populations. There aren't any sports teams with Jewish slurs as their logo.

Do both, but every time the left eats itself over minor but deeply felt purity tests the far right laughs it's ass off, spreads another explicitly racist Meme, and wins elections through cultural solidarity.

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First, this wasn't that vague, and she wasn't talking about the loyalties of Israeli "lobbyists", she was talking about the loyalty of any Americans who support Israel.

Second, obviously a lot of people (especially Republican leadership) are arguing in bad faith when they are complaining about Omar's remarks. They don't *really* care about anti-Semitism, they just care about scoring political points. And obviously Republicans have tolerated (and encouraged) a lot of bigotry within their party. But why does that matter on the Omar debate? Does the fact that Republicans refuse to police the bigots within their ranks mean that the Democrats should also refuse to do so? Won't we wind up with a Democratic Party with standards just as low as the Republicans if we go down that road? So sure, don't listen to Jim Jordan or Kevin McCarthy when they complain about Omar (but then, we shouldn't be listening to them on anything), but that doesn't mean anything when discussing Omar's anti-Semitism.

Lastly, I'm reading the second half of your post as basically saying that addressing anti-Semitism within the Democratic Party is not as important as maintaining unity within the Democratic Party. Is that your position, or am I misreading you?

FWIW I am pretty satisfied with where Democratic leadership came out on this - a resolution condemning anti-Semitism that is clearly addressed towards Omar's remarks, but without censuring her or condemning her by name, seems pretty reasonable. But still serves the purpose of labeling this type of anti-Semitism as properly out of bounds.
It's a level of degrees and ranor.(i just wanted to use the word rancor.

I see as someone who grew up in a culture that's anti Semitic. Who uses antisemitic tropes, and traffics in circles that are anti Semitic. That is unacceptable, she was told to stop it, she didn't, action was taken that the end of it and either she'll continue to push, because there is a growing movement of antisemitism in the far or she is sincere in her desire to change.

It seems like you see it as a dominoes against another holocaust.

Maybe it is and this one congress woman who probably doesn't like the Jewish state needs to be made an example of.

I just have trouble putting anti semitism on such a pedestal above all the other hatred and violence in the world.

The idea that one brand of racism is more or less out of bounds smacks to me of priviledge.



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To clarify.

Who decides what is and isn't out of bounds?

Who decides what tropes demand reprimand?

Tropes are used against white people Latin people's, indigenous people, black people. Which groups warrant censure? How explicit does it need to be?

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:37 pm

I recommend the advice of the tweet I posted earlier. If a community is saying something is racist/sexist/bigoted/etc against them, listen to them.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:37 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:22 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:47 pm

It gets to double standards and bias.

A liberal is vaguely anti Semitic. And its a national conversation.
The republican party embraces white nationalism on a daily basis when it suits their purposes and it's business as usual.

People suggest that Israeli lobbyists play on ethnic loyalties. And we're ushering in the next holocaust.

Many of these same people decrying how awful this trope usage is didn't blink an eye at shredding the constitution to show loyalty to a president over their country.

And remain relatively quiet over genocides across the world. Yemen, Rhohinga, China,

Save us the fucking pearl clutching.
And I sure as shit am not going to listen to any Republican say anything about a Muslim woman making unacceptable remarks.

To be clear. This "people are trying to say oh well" :she's been officially reprimanded dragged through the media, in danger of being censured, made enemies of her leadership, and continues to be harrased as a Muslim. Within months of being sworn in. How fucking long has Steve King just been cruising.

If that's whataboutism fine I'm okay with that. The Jewish people have had thousands of bad years and it's still going on. So have a lot of other populations. There aren't any sports teams with Jewish slurs as their logo.

Do both, but every time the left eats itself over minor but deeply felt purity tests the far right laughs it's ass off, spreads another explicitly racist Meme, and wins elections through cultural solidarity.

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First, this wasn't that vague, and she wasn't talking about the loyalties of Israeli "lobbyists", she was talking about the loyalty of any Americans who support Israel.

Second, obviously a lot of people (especially Republican leadership) are arguing in bad faith when they are complaining about Omar's remarks. They don't *really* care about anti-Semitism, they just care about scoring political points. And obviously Republicans have tolerated (and encouraged) a lot of bigotry within their party. But why does that matter on the Omar debate? Does the fact that Republicans refuse to police the bigots within their ranks mean that the Democrats should also refuse to do so? Won't we wind up with a Democratic Party with standards just as low as the Republicans if we go down that road? So sure, don't listen to Jim Jordan or Kevin McCarthy when they complain about Omar (but then, we shouldn't be listening to them on anything), but that doesn't mean anything when discussing Omar's anti-Semitism.

Lastly, I'm reading the second half of your post as basically saying that addressing anti-Semitism within the Democratic Party is not as important as maintaining unity within the Democratic Party. Is that your position, or am I misreading you?

FWIW I am pretty satisfied with where Democratic leadership came out on this - a resolution condemning anti-Semitism that is clearly addressed towards Omar's remarks, but without censuring her or condemning her by name, seems pretty reasonable. But still serves the purpose of labeling this type of anti-Semitism as properly out of bounds.
It's a level of degrees and ranor.(i just wanted to use the word rancor.

I see as someone who grew up in a culture that's anti Semitic. Who uses antisemitic tropes, and traffics in circles that are anti Semitic. That is unacceptable, she was told to stop it, she didn't, action was taken that the end of it and either she'll continue to push, because there is a growing movement of antisemitism in the far or she is sincere in her desire to change.

It seems like you see it as a dominoes against another holocaust.

Maybe it is and this one congress woman who probably doesn't like the Jewish state needs to be made an example of.

I just have trouble putting anti semitism on such a pedestal above all the other hatred and violence in the world.

The idea that one brand of racism is more or less out of bounds smacks to me of priviledge.



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No, I don't see this as "dominoes against another holocaust", and I'm not sure what I said that leads you to that conclusion. The danger is more that anti-Semitism could overtake the progressive left (or a big chunk of it), as it has with the Corbynite part of the Labour Party, which would serve to normalize and spread anti-Semitic ideas. Especially since we could plausibly wind up with a President from the progressive left before too long. Not that they would immediately start throwing Jews into concentration camps or anything, it's more that that would be likely to have a variety of bad impacts both for Jewish people and America more generally.

And I'm not putting anti-Semitism above other types of bigotry, or placing it uniquely out of bounds. It would have been just as bad or represensible if Omar had questioned the loyalty of American Catholics (which also has its own very long and dark history) or of Mexicans, Russians, or anyone. I'm saying that bigoted remarks of any type are properly out of bounds, including but not limited to anti-Semitic remarks.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Combustible Lemur » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:39 pm

Defiant wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:22 pm


I just have trouble putting anti semitism on such a pedestal above all the other hatred and violence in the world.

The idea that one brand of racism is more or less out of bounds smacks to me of priviledge.
I don't think it should be. Although I think it's more prominent then you may think. For example, last year in terms of hate crimes, hate crimes against Jews (~1000) was second only to hate crimes against Black people (~2500) (and then keep in mind that there are more than six times as many African Americans as Jewish Americans). And then consider that the US is a lot better than most countries (see Europe, etc).

Though I will say that I also have added concern because I've seen what's happened in Britain with the Labour party with much concern, and I don't want to see the same thing happen here. Thankfully I still live in a country where I can consider one of the two major parties my home.
And it's a legit concern, I have zero qualms with her reprimand. I think She does cross the line.


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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Combustible Lemur » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:41 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:22 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:47 pm

It gets to double standards and bias.

A liberal is vaguely anti Semitic. And its a national conversation.
The republican party embraces white nationalism on a daily basis when it suits their purposes and it's business as usual.

People suggest that Israeli lobbyists play on ethnic loyalties. And we're ushering in the next holocaust.

Many of these same people decrying how awful this trope usage is didn't blink an eye at shredding the constitution to show loyalty to a president over their country.

And remain relatively quiet over genocides across the world. Yemen, Rhohinga, China,

Save us the fucking pearl clutching.
And I sure as shit am not going to listen to any Republican say anything about a Muslim woman making unacceptable remarks.

To be clear. This "people are trying to say oh well" :she's been officially reprimanded dragged through the media, in danger of being censured, made enemies of her leadership, and continues to be harrased as a Muslim. Within months of being sworn in. How fucking long has Steve King just been cruising.

If that's whataboutism fine I'm okay with that. The Jewish people have had thousands of bad years and it's still going on. So have a lot of other populations. There aren't any sports teams with Jewish slurs as their logo.

Do both, but every time the left eats itself over minor but deeply felt purity tests the far right laughs it's ass off, spreads another explicitly racist Meme, and wins elections through cultural solidarity.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
First, this wasn't that vague, and she wasn't talking about the loyalties of Israeli "lobbyists", she was talking about the loyalty of any Americans who support Israel.

Second, obviously a lot of people (especially Republican leadership) are arguing in bad faith when they are complaining about Omar's remarks. They don't *really* care about anti-Semitism, they just care about scoring political points. And obviously Republicans have tolerated (and encouraged) a lot of bigotry within their party. But why does that matter on the Omar debate? Does the fact that Republicans refuse to police the bigots within their ranks mean that the Democrats should also refuse to do so? Won't we wind up with a Democratic Party with standards just as low as the Republicans if we go down that road? So sure, don't listen to Jim Jordan or Kevin McCarthy when they complain about Omar (but then, we shouldn't be listening to them on anything), but that doesn't mean anything when discussing Omar's anti-Semitism.

Lastly, I'm reading the second half of your post as basically saying that addressing anti-Semitism within the Democratic Party is not as important as maintaining unity within the Democratic Party. Is that your position, or am I misreading you?

FWIW I am pretty satisfied with where Democratic leadership came out on this - a resolution condemning anti-Semitism that is clearly addressed towards Omar's remarks, but without censuring her or condemning her by name, seems pretty reasonable. But still serves the purpose of labeling this type of anti-Semitism as properly out of bounds.
It's a level of degrees and ranor.(i just wanted to use the word rancor.

I see as someone who grew up in a culture that's anti Semitic. Who uses antisemitic tropes, and traffics in circles that are anti Semitic. That is unacceptable, she was told to stop it, she didn't, action was taken that the end of it and either she'll continue to push, because there is a growing movement of antisemitism in the far or she is sincere in her desire to change.

It seems like you see it as a dominoes against another holocaust.

Maybe it is and this one congress woman who probably doesn't like the Jewish state needs to be made an example of.

I just have trouble putting anti semitism on such a pedestal above all the other hatred and violence in the world.

The idea that one brand of racism is more or less out of bounds smacks to me of priviledge.



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No, I don't see this as "dominoes against another holocaust", and I'm not sure what I said that leads you to that conclusion. The danger is more that anti-Semitism could overtake the progressive left (or a big chunk of it), as it has with the Corbynite part of the Labour Party, which would serve to normalize and spread anti-Semitic ideas. Especially since we could plausibly wind up with a President from the progressive left before too long. Not that they would immediately start throwing Jews into concentration camps or anything, it's more that that would be likely to have a variety of bad impacts both for Jewish people and America more generally.

And I'm not putting anti-Semitism above other types of bigotry, or placing it uniquely out of bounds. It would have been just as bad or represensible if Omar had questioned the loyalty of American Catholics (which also has its own very long and dark history) or of Mexicans, Russians, or anyone. I'm saying that bigoted remarks of any type are properly out of bounds, including but not limited to anti-Semitic remarks.
Fair, I don't think we disagree on any of those points.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by noxiousdog » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 pm

Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:37 pm
I recommend the advice of the tweet I posted earlier. If a community is saying something is racist/sexist/bigoted/etc against them, listen to them.
Like the war against Christmas? Or is that selective?
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:14 pm

You can listen to someone without believing them.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by noxiousdog » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:24 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:14 pm
You can listen to someone without believing them.
White men can't hear Jimi.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:34 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 pm
Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:37 pm
I recommend the advice of the tweet I posted earlier. If a community is saying something is racist/sexist/bigoted/etc against them, listen to them.
Like the war against Christmas? Or is that selective?
Is the Christian community really decrying a war against Christmas, or is it a tiny subset of them that happen to be put in front of the camera?

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:38 pm

Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:34 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 pm
Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:37 pm
I recommend the advice of the tweet I posted earlier. If a community is saying something is racist/sexist/bigoted/etc against them, listen to them.
Like the war against Christmas? Or is that selective?
Is the Christian community really decrying a war against Christmas, or is it a tiny subset of them that happen to be put in front of the camera?
That is where things start to get a little more complicated, as there's never really one community speaking with one voice. There are clearly Christian communities who believe that Christians are discriminated against in the United States (including as part of the War on Christmas). Exactly how many people they represent....harder to say.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by noxiousdog » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:55 pm

Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:34 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 pm
Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:37 pm
I recommend the advice of the tweet I posted earlier. If a community is saying something is racist/sexist/bigoted/etc against them, listen to them.
Like the war against Christmas? Or is that selective?
Is the Christian community really decrying a war against Christmas, or is it a tiny subset of them that happen to be put in front of the camera?
Does it matter? This ties back into the repatriations thread. Are Native Americans less entitled to repatriations because they don't have a good marketing group?

This is total devil's advocate by the way.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:23 pm

Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:01 pm
The difference is that the Democratic leadership is actually does something.
...and they're pulling the resolution. Sigh.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Default » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:31 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:38 pm
Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:34 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 pm
Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:37 pm
I recommend the advice of the tweet I posted earlier. If a community is saying something is racist/sexist/bigoted/etc against them, listen to them.
Like the war against Christmas? Or is that selective?
Is the Christian community really decrying a war against Christmas, or is it a tiny subset of them that happen to be put in front of the camera?
That is where things start to get a little more complicated, as there's never really one community speaking with one voice. There are clearly Christian communities who believe that Christians are discriminated against in the United States (including as part of the War on Christmas). Exactly how many people they represent....harder to say.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:20 pm

Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:23 pm
Defiant wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:01 pm
The difference is that the Democratic leadership is actually does something.
...and they're pulling the resolution. Sigh.
Yup, sigh. And Harris and Warren both issued statements basically opposing the resolution, although they're trying to be indirect and cutesy about it - basically "branding all criticism of Israel as anti-semitic chills debate..." without actually defending Omar's remarks and redirecting the issue. Very disappointing. I'll be curious as to whether any of the major democratic candidates are going to be honest and direct about this (which would include any who actually make the argument that her remarks are not anti-semitic).

Also, this article from Slate is a perfect encapsulation of my issues with Omar's remarks, and the dangers for the Democratic Party.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:08 am

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:20 pm

Yup, sigh. And Harris and Warren both issued statements basically opposing the resolution, although they're trying to be indirect and cutesy about it - basically "branding all criticism of Israel as anti-semitic chills debate..." without actually defending Omar's remarks and redirecting the issue. Very disappointing. I'll be curious as to whether any of the major democratic candidates are going to be honest and direct about this (which would include any who actually make the argument that her remarks are not anti-semitic).
And Harris was concerned that "that the spotlight being put on Congresswoman Omar may put her at risk". Seriously? So we should just ignore Omar and not mention her?

Interestingly, a much better response came from a frequent critic of Israel
"My Minnesota colleague, Rep. Ilhan Omar, believes she has spoken honestly and forcefully about an issue of importance to her. Many of my colleagues, especially my Jewish colleagues, interpreted her words as personal attacks and deeply offensive. The situation is dividing Democrats, which is exactly what the Republican minority and President Trump are seeking to achieve.

"Rep. Omar has the right to speak freely, and she also must take responsibility for the effect her words have on her colleagues, her constituents, and the policies Democrats seek to advance. She has the power to remedy this situation with her colleagues and prevent it from happening again in the future. Democrats have an important agenda to advance and for any Member of Congress to be successful it takes the support of at least 217 colleagues to pass a bill. No one does this job alone."

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by hepcat » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 am

A part of me has to wonder if the outrage isn't being partially fueled by the fact that she's Muslim.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:08 am

hepcat wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 am
A part of me has to wonder if the outrage isn't being partially fueled by the fact that she's Muslim.
For the outrage from the right, probably. But for the rest of us, it was dependent on what she said, not who she is.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:22 am

Defiant wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:08 am
hepcat wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 am
A part of me has to wonder if the outrage isn't being partially fueled by the fact that she's Muslim.
For the outrage from the right, probably. But for the rest of us, it was dependent on what she said, not who she is.
Don't embrace that idea as there are those on both sides that fall into both catagories here.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by hepcat » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:39 am

It would be foolish to think such prejudices don't exist on both sides of the aisle. Omar's being accused of it and she's a Dem.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:46 am

Yes, there are prejudices on both sides. But we would still be complaining about what she said if she were a US Representative who was Christian or Atheist or whatever.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by hepcat » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:48 am

We hope. I'm not convinced everyone would though...at least not at this level...in either camp.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:05 am

Remus West wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:22 am
Defiant wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:08 am
hepcat wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 am
A part of me has to wonder if the outrage isn't being partially fueled by the fact that she's Muslim.
For the outrage from the right, probably. But for the rest of us, it was dependent on what she said, not who she is.
Don't embrace that idea as there are those on both sides that fall into both catagories here.
I don't doubt it, but: (1) Islamophobia is clearly more on the right side of the political spectrum right now; and (2) that some critics of her are motivated at least partially of islamophobia isn't especially relevant to whether her remarks are anti-Semitic.

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El Guapo
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:09 am

Defiant wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:08 am
El Guapo wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:20 pm

Yup, sigh. And Harris and Warren both issued statements basically opposing the resolution, although they're trying to be indirect and cutesy about it - basically "branding all criticism of Israel as anti-semitic chills debate..." without actually defending Omar's remarks and redirecting the issue. Very disappointing. I'll be curious as to whether any of the major democratic candidates are going to be honest and direct about this (which would include any who actually make the argument that her remarks are not anti-semitic).
And Harris was concerned that "that the spotlight being put on Congresswoman Omar may put her at risk". Seriously? So we should just ignore Omar and not mention her?

Interestingly, a much better response came from a frequent critic of Israel
"My Minnesota colleague, Rep. Ilhan Omar, believes she has spoken honestly and forcefully about an issue of importance to her. Many of my colleagues, especially my Jewish colleagues, interpreted her words as personal attacks and deeply offensive. The situation is dividing Democrats, which is exactly what the Republican minority and President Trump are seeking to achieve.

"Rep. Omar has the right to speak freely, and she also must take responsibility for the effect her words have on her colleagues, her constituents, and the policies Democrats seek to advance. She has the power to remedy this situation with her colleagues and prevent it from happening again in the future. Democrats have an important agenda to advance and for any Member of Congress to be successful it takes the support of at least 217 colleagues to pass a bill. No one does this job alone."
Yeah, that's a solid statement. That's also a way in which I was deeply disappointed by Warren's and Harris's statements - they are political mush that doesn't get at the real issues here. Their essence is "progressives seem to be mostly supporting Omar and I need their support so I'm going to issue a vague statement supporting her while not misrepresenting the substance here so as to try to minimize the number of people I offend." McCollum's statement defends Omar's right to speak while acknowledging that she has to accept responsibility for what she says.

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hepcat
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by hepcat » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:10 am

Should we put her at the same level as Steve King? It took 16 years for King to get this kind of response, if I'm not mistaken. And I truly believe he's done much worse during his time.

I think Omar should apologize, of course. And to use this moment as a learning event. But I'm not convinced her words were intentionally playing to the trope of dual loyalty. I'm not familiar with everything she's ever said though. It would be interesting to see if she has displayed a pattern of true antisemitism.
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El Guapo
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:14 am

hepcat wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:10 am
Should we put her at the same level as Steve King? It took 16 years for King to get this kind of response, if I'm not mistaken.
No, obviously she's not as bad as Steve King. Although Steve King was censured by name (which the Democrats aren't even trying to do to Omar) shortly after the Democrats regained the majority. Republicans clearly haven't done their job policing bigotry in their ranks (to put it mildly) - I would like for the Democratic Party to avoid that fate.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:37 am



No cause for concern.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:49 am

Should we put her at the same level as Steve King? It took 16 years for King to get this kind of response, if I'm not mistaken. And I truly believe he's done much worse during his time.
Given that it's what I consider my home, I think the Democratic Party's standards should be higher than the Republican Party's complete lack of standards.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:36 pm

Apparently they're going to vote on a resolution today, condemning anti-Semitism, islamophobia, and white supremacy.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:44 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:36 pm
Apparently they're going to vote on a resolution today, condemning anti-Semitism, islamophobia, and white supremacy.
All bigotry matter. But I suppose it's something, at least.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:22 pm

Defiant wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:44 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:36 pm
Apparently they're going to vote on a resolution today, condemning anti-Semitism, islamophobia, and white supremacy.
All bigotry matter. But I suppose it's something, at least.
Yeah, it's something (assuming that it actually happens). Having had a kerfluffle over this, not passing anything would likely be construed as more or less condoning Omar's dual loyalty remarks, which wouldn't be great. Passing a mushy "all hate is bad" resolution is not the perfect outcome, but it's some kind of response / implicit condemnation. Plus it's probably worthwhile to include Islamophobia and white supremacy given the attacks on Omar, and given that the primary defense of Omar is "what about Islamophobia and right wing hate?"

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:43 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:05 am
Remus West wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:22 am
Defiant wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:08 am
hepcat wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 am
A part of me has to wonder if the outrage isn't being partially fueled by the fact that she's Muslim.
For the outrage from the right, probably. But for the rest of us, it was dependent on what she said, not who she is.
Don't embrace that idea as there are those on both sides that fall into both catagories here.
I don't doubt it, but: (1) Islamophobia is clearly more on the right side of the political spectrum right now; and (2) that some critics of her are motivated at least partially of islamophobia isn't especially relevant to whether her remarks are anti-Semitic.
Absolutely. I do not discount the possibility of anti-Semitism or Islamaphobia on either side but I do recognize that the later is much more openly present on the right.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by hepcat » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:56 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:22 pm
and given that the primary defense of Omar is "what about Islamophobia and right wing hate?"
I wasn't proposing a defense of "whataboutism". I was simply asking if she was also a victim of prejudice at some level.

If this wasn't intended to include me though, never mind.
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El Guapo
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:25 pm

hepcat wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:56 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:22 pm
and given that the primary defense of Omar is "what about Islamophobia and right wing hate?"
I wasn't proposing a defense of "whataboutism". I was simply asking if she was also a victim of prejudice at some level.

If this wasn't intended to include me though, never mind.
FWIW that wasn't addressed to you - it's one of the primary defenses of Omar's remarks by a lot of people.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:33 pm

Here's the resolution.

I gotta say, I'm surprised by how good it is. Condemns both anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bigotry, doesn't get too general or mushy, and also details (briefly) the history of dual-loyalty accusations and why they are problematic (not just applied to Jews, but also against Catholics and Muslims).

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 pm

Yeah, that's a better statement than I feared it would be.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:52 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:33 pm
Here's the resolution.

I gotta say, I'm surprised by how good it is. Condemns both anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bigotry, doesn't get too general or mushy, and also details (briefly) the history of dual-loyalty accusations and why they are problematic (not just applied to Jews, but also against Catholics and Muslims).
Kennedy, that sonuvabitch, was dancing on the Pope's strings. I'm sure of it.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:50 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:33 pm
Here's the resolution.

I gotta say, I'm surprised by how good it is. Condemns both anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bigotry, doesn't get too general or mushy, and also details (briefly) the history of dual-loyalty accusations and why they are problematic (not just applied to Jews, but also against Catholics and Muslims).
Agree.

Of course it won't do a thing to stop the GOP from blasting "Democrat Party Anti-Semitism" every day from now until the election.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:41 pm

Holman wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:50 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:33 pm
Here's the resolution.

I gotta say, I'm surprised by how good it is. Condemns both anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bigotry, doesn't get too general or mushy, and also details (briefly) the history of dual-loyalty accusations and why they are problematic (not just applied to Jews, but also against Catholics and Muslims).
Agree.

Of course it won't do a thing to stop the GOP from blasting "Democrat Party Anti-Semitism" every day from now until the election.
Yeah, but the GOP's going to make bad faith attacks of one stripe or another. Not totally sure that it ultimately matters which drum they're beating.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by YellowKing » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:47 pm

Proud father time:

The other night the kids wanted to sleep in the same bed, so they were arguing who got to sleep on which side. My son (7) exclaims, "I'm sleeping here. You will sleep there! I will use this pillow, and you will use that pillow!"

I told my son, "Hey bud, you guys have to talk this out. You can't just be a dictator."

My daughter (9) replies, "Yeah, you can't be the dictator because that's Trump!" :lol:

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