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What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:57 am

Cyprus got a deal:
Wealthy Russian investors have parked vast sums, some of it ill-gotten, in Cypriot banks. But Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said Monday that Cyprus, by agreeing to impose a tax of about 30 percent on big, uninsured accounts with more than $130,000 to help solve its debt crisis, is "continuing, I think, to plunder the loot" of his countrymen.
...
The bailout terms were reached in last-minute negotiations in Brussels, just ahead of a deadline set by the European Central Bank. The central bank has said it would cut off emergency funding to Cypriot banks if no deal was reached.
...
To secure the $13 billion bailout from their European neighbors, the central bank and International Monetary Fund, Cyprus had to raise $7.5 billion. As part of the deal, it agreed to close the island's second largest bank, Laiki, and enforce heavy losses on wealthy bank depositors. The island last week rejected an earlier plan sanctioned by the lenders that also would have taxed the insured accounts of small investors.
...
Cyprus becomes the fifth eurozone country where billions of dollars in bailouts have been needed to stave off a bankruptcy, following Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Spain.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by malchior » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:03 pm

Cyprus has a deal but they have only effectively kicked the can down the road most likely. They are going to be saddled with a crippling debt load, enforced austerity measures and oh...their main sector (finance) is basically destroyed. Their only real hope is that the natural gas reserves pan out for them. Ugly.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LordMortis » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:06 pm

Their just taking their queue from the larger finance sector in the world. You could have as easily typed:
malchior wrote:The US Federal Government has a deal but they have only effectively kicked the can down the road most likely. They are going to be saddled with a crippling debt load, enforced austerity measures and oh...their main sector (finance) is basically destroyed.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by malchior » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:15 pm

Maybe Europe (in part). We're not even close to that level. Their finance sector was 8 times GDP. Their debt to the public is going to rachet up to 140-150%. That is nearly double ours. We're fantastic compared to these poor folks.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Zarathud » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:18 pm

The US has the benefit of being the default currency, so we can buy our own debt instead of asking the Germans for terms.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by malchior » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:25 pm

Zarathud wrote:The US has the benefit of being the default currency, so we can buy our own debt instead of asking the Germans for terms.
That helps for sure. It would have been interesting if they tried to pull an Iceland but the head of their Central Bank is not savvy enough to have made that a viable option.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by malchior » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:17 pm

I don't know if anyone else has been watching this closely but what a cluster-f Europe is. The head of the Eurogroup says in a videotaped interview that this depositor haircut scheme was a template for future bailouts. The market goes haywire including stopping trading on some Italian banks and they have to walk the comment back. Is it just jitters or a sign of deep trouble?

I also now have to wonder if this might finally spur the repatriation of corporate funds from overseas. Facing the risk of all your funds getting wiped out in a euro meltdown or paying taxes....I have to assume paying taxes wins.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Rip » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:19 pm

Zarathud wrote:The US has the benefit of being the default currency, so we can buy our own debt instead of asking the Germans for terms.
Quantitative easing, FTW.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Zarathud » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:23 pm

The tax havens are facing severe pressure right now. The Swiss banks will rat you out to the US government, many banks will no longer do business with US citizens due to the new FACTA account reporting requirements and now even Russian mobsters are finding their deposits being siezed. What's a tax dodger going to do these days?
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:39 pm

Zarathud wrote:What's a tax dodger going to do these days?
First, become a corporation...
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LordMortis » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:46 pm

http://www.commondreams.org/video/2013/03/27-1" target="_blank

Can the senate do fight the executive branch or are they in Big Bank's pocket?

Not anti monopoly but rather an Anti MEGA . Makes me think the Monsanto will come out of nowhere and crush this like a non imported HRR 933 Sec 735 pest on alfalfa.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:48 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Can the senate do fight the executive branch or are they in Big Bank's pocket?
The Senate? You mean the world's most protected group of insider traders?
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by malchior » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:22 pm

Judge dismisses bulk of LIBOR lawsuit claims. :doh:

Another good one. The banks pretty much get caught red handed committing widespread fraud...the governments of multiple nations fines them...yet there is not enough basis for a lawsuit to go forward. Ok, cool.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LordMortis » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:29 pm

She doesn't give up.

http://www.upworthy.com/sigh-elizabeth- ... in-2?c=bl1" target="_blank

You have to wonder if Elizabeth Warren is going to run for president because she seems to talking all of the talk the Obama talked back in 2007-2008 and acting like a bulldog where ever she is present.

And I must say, Kudos to her. Who knows one day, people like her could even make me put some faith in Democrats or.... Congress. (Did I say that out loud?)

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Rip » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:57 pm

LordMortis wrote:She doesn't give up.

http://www.upworthy.com/sigh-elizabeth- ... in-2?c=bl1" target="_blank

You have to wonder if Elizabeth Warren is going to run for president because she seems to talking all of the talk the Obama talked back in 2007-2008 and acting like a bulldog where ever she is present.

And I must say, Kudos to her. Who knows one day, people like her could even make me put some faith in Democrats or.... Congress. (Did I say that out loud?)
I find it hard taking someone seriously when they are a multi-millionaire and start telling me about how their brother has to live on $16k or whatever it was. Does she really sit on her pile of gold and watch her brother live on almost nothing?

Come to think of it that is another thing she has in common with Obama.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:01 pm

Siblings don't routinely provide financial assistance to each other. Nor would most siblings ask. Or are you promoting lesser well off siblings to live off the hard work of others rather than work toward improving their own lots in life?

Not only that, but there are plenty of people that wouldn't want to accept such assistance anyway.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Rip » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:50 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:Siblings don't routinely provide financial assistance to each other. Nor would most siblings ask. Or are you promoting lesser well off siblings to live off the hard work of others rather than work toward improving their own lots in life?

Not only that, but there are plenty of people that wouldn't want to accept such assistance anyway.

I would rather they work their way but he is living off Social Security IIRC. I was raised that it is far less unsavory to give and receive assistance from family than from the taxpayer.

I for one have far less issues accepting help from someone who cares and wants to help than being party to it being a compelled contribution via taxation.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LordMortis » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:02 pm

I have no idea what her brother's situation is but social security is an insurance we all pay into. I don't necessarily consider that living off the tax payer. I've put into six figures into social security insurance in my lifetime which is to say nothing of interest that should be gained on thirty plus years of "payroll" collection (as they insist it is not an income tax). If I collected social security tomorrow I wouldn't feel a tiny bit of guilt but I'd hate to take money from family.

That's me.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Rip » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:12 pm

LordMortis wrote:I have no idea what her brother's situation is but social security is an insurance we all pay into. I don't necessarily consider that living off the tax payer. I've put into six figures into social security insurance in my lifetime which is to say nothing of interest that should be gained on thirty plus years of "payroll" collection (as they insist it is not an income tax). If I collected social security tomorrow I wouldn't feel a tiny bit of guilt but I'd hate to take money from family.

That's me.
I am not saying give up one for the other. What I am saying that if I were her he wouldn't be living off just that. I would almost certainly add to that somehow be it via cash or taking him out to or inviting him to dinner frequently.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:37 pm

Rip wrote: I am not saying give up one for the other. What I am saying that if I were her he wouldn't be living off just that. I would almost certainly add to that somehow be it via cash or taking him out to or inviting him to dinner frequently.
He could get a ghost consulting job on name alone. But he's more valuable kept below the poverty line (as far as the income goes) as someone to trot out as an anecdote and to demonstrate that she really does have a empathy for the prols.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Kraken » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:40 pm

LordMortis wrote:
You have to wonder if Elizabeth Warren is going to run for president because she seems to talking all of the talk the Obama talked back in 2007-2008 and acting like a bulldog where ever she is present.
While I wouldn't rule out presidential ambitions altogether, she's not ready for that yet (and I'm sure that she knows it). As long as she sticks to bank regulation and consumer protection, she's on solid ground. When asked about other aspects of national policy she mostly parrots the party line.

Give her 10 or 20 years in the Senate to broaden her horizon. I think we Massholes are satisfied with her performance to date and she's probably got the seat for the long haul.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:36 am

Arise Thread! JP Morgan Chase on the hook for $13B and no criminal immunity? Interesting...
The nation’s biggest bank is working out details with the US government of what would be the biggest settlement in history. And despite the record settlement the bank wouldn’t be off the hook from potential criminal charges.

That’s what should have the bank’s investors and others in the industry concerned, and they can thank the President’s Financial Fraud Enforcement Task Force.
But... it sounds a bit fishy too:
One bank analyst calls the government’s move against JPM entrapment.

Why? Part of the possible $13 billion settlement involves mortgage securities sold by Bear Stearns, the failed brokerage firm that JPM bought in 2008 at the urging of the government.

“The government begged this company to acquire Bear Stearns and then apparently is about to fine it for doing so. This is the basis of a lawsuit that could be filed in this matter,” analyst Dick Bove says in a note today.

Unfair? Maybe. But NYU’s Smith says while the banking world may think it’s unfair that’s just how the system works. “Finance is politicized in our world and the political system doesn’t have to be rational. We’re all subject to whatever is the latest consensus and the consensus right now says banks are to blame,” Smith says.

When JPMorgan bought Bear Stearns it bought its assets and liabilities meaning it can’t be indemnified from the legal pain that’s now coming its way, Smith notes.
Note that it is only "part of", but still pretty slimy... I'll be interested to read Taibbi's take, as he tends to get much more to the meat of the story than most articles I see on the Banking crisis.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:25 am

Now look t it the other way. If being bought out magically absolved people of crime and malfeasance, what would that do to the state of business?

The alternative to still pursuing the matters is giving a golden parachute to those that partake in criminal activity
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LordMortis » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:36 am

Isgrimnur wrote:Now look t it the other way. If being bought out magically absolved people of crime and malfeasance, what would that do to the state of business?

The alternative to still pursuing the matters is giving a golden parachute to those that partake in criminal activity
I think the ugliness isn't putting them on the hook for Bears Stern but rather they were pressured to buy Bears Stern by the government and then are being held accountable for BS' action. That's a sort of mafia tactics. Of course, you'd think Chase would do their own investigation or ask for immunity before squiring BS at the government's request.

Quite frankly, that far up the food chain, they mostly feel like criminals but I have no idea where right and wrong is. They do a pretty good job of hiding it from us.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:38 am

LordMortis wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:Now look t it the other way. If being bought out magically absolved people of crime and malfeasance, what would that do to the state of business?

The alternative to still pursuing the matters is giving a golden parachute to those that partake in criminal activity
I think the ugliness isn't putting them on the hook for Bears Stern but rather they were pressured to buy Bears Stern by the government and then are being held accountable for BS' action. That's a sort of mafia tactics. Of course, you'd think Chase would do their own investigation or ask for immunity before squiring BS at the government's request.

Quite frankly, that far up the food chain, they mostly feel like criminals but I have no idea where right and wrong is. They do a pretty good job of hiding it from us.
They were handed BS on a silver platter. The Fed worked a deal for $2 a share (7% of BS's market value a few days before). It was so absurdly low they bumped it up 500% to $10 in the face of outrage from sharholders, many of the largest of whom were BS employees whom the government wanted to keep at BS. Which still made it just over $1B for what amounted to a $30B Federal Reserve loan to JPM collateralized by BS assets. Even after a $13B fine (which isn't exclusively for the past sins of BS) it was a steal.

Dimon basically got a closed door meeting with Geithner and crew to make the BS problem go away. In return, JPM got an absurd deal and the Fed could [hopefully] stabalize markets.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:46 am

Commentary from the WSJ
Mistakes such as the Whale trades ought to be a matter settled among shareholders, directors and management. But politicians and regulators now believe that the big banks all work for them. Washington is looting J.P. Morgan, and may yet string up Jamie Dimon, as a lesson in what will happen to any banker who dares to disagree with his Washington bosses.
The other irony is that the people that were harmed were banks and investors. The $4 million of the $13 billion, on the other hand, is going to "consumer relief"
The news reports add that another $4 billion in the settlement will go for consumer relief, and that it is up to the feds how this will be distributed. But remember that most of the charges being settled relate to Morgan's sale of mortgage securities. Even if you believe those charges, which we don't, the victims would be the institutional buyers of those securities.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LordMortis » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:02 am

If the commentary proves to be an accurate assessment, it will be interesting to see how banking and investors deal with funding sitting members of Congress for the next couple of election cycles. If this is about Big Bank defying its Big Government masters then that would seem to imply that Big Government is not only indirectly responsible for the housing bubble and banking collapse but that it is directly responsible.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:27 pm

LordMortis wrote:If the commentary proves to be an accurate assessment, it will be interesting to see how banking and investors deal with funding sitting members of Congress for the next couple of election cycles. If this is about Big Bank/i] defying its Big Government masters then that would seem to imply that Big Government is not only indirectly responsible for the housing bubble and banking collapse but that it is directly responsible.


I don't think the two are related. The feds were asleep at the wheel during the buildup. But once they tell you to toe the line, you better do it.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:32 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
LordMortis wrote:If the commentary proves to be an accurate assessment, it will be interesting to see how banking and investors deal with funding sitting members of Congress for the next couple of election cycles. If this is about Big Bank/i] defying its Big Government masters then that would seem to imply that Big Government is not only indirectly responsible for the housing bubble and banking collapse but that it is directly responsible.


I don't think the two are related. The feds were asleep at the wheel during the buildup. But once they tell you to toe the line, you better do it.

IIRC the Feds actively changed laws that encouraged the buildup.

I think it's very simple. As the winds in DC shift, banks fall out of favor (and/or their contributions are dwarfed by tech company contributions).
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:49 pm

Interesting that the WSJ article (not from the Opinion section) really wants this to be politicized, while the NYTimes articleis a little different in tone:
But as details emerge, Wall Street’s fears of a largely punitive settlement may not add up.

While the overall sum is large, the money will flow to different parties. The largest sum, more than $6 billion, will serve as compensation for investors like pension funds that suffered losses from mortgage securities sold by JPMorgan, Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual, people briefed on the settlement talks said.

Another $4 billion will take the form of relief for struggling homeowners in cities like Detroit. The payout will serve as penance for the bank’s general mortgage practices, and does not stem from any particular mortgage securities or institution, according to one of the people briefed on the talks.

The remaining $2 billion to $3 billion will represent the only fine in the case, according to the people briefed on the talks. That fine, from federal prosecutors in Sacramento, involves a civil investigation into mortgage securities that JPMorgan itself sold in the run-up to the financial crisis. Despite the concerns that JPMorgan was being unfairly taken to task for the practices of Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual, investigations into the two firms are not expected to lead to any fines. Justice Department lawyers, one person said, decided against allocating fines to those firms because doing so might appear punitive.
I think the potential Criminal prosecutions will never materialize, but that could just be me.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:20 pm

Pyperkub wrote:Interesting that the WSJ article (not from the Opinion section) really wants this to be politicized, while the NYTimes articleis a little different in tone:
The tone is different but it's still political. They don't really think JPM is paying 11 billion out of the goodness of their heart, do they?
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:25 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:Interesting that the WSJ article (not from the Opinion section) really wants this to be politicized, while the NYTimes articleis a little different in tone:
The tone is different but it's still political. They don't really think JPM is paying 11 billion out of the goodness of their heart, do they?
Or $13b ;), but they did screw over a lot of people, in fraudulent fashion, in particular the Pension funds, who appear to be getting the Lion's share here.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:31 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:Interesting that the WSJ article (not from the Opinion section) really wants this to be politicized, while the NYTimes articleis a little different in tone:
The tone is different but it's still political. They don't really think JPM is paying 11 billion out of the goodness of their heart, do they?
Or $13b ;), but they did screw over a lot of people, in fraudulent fashion, in particular the Pension funds, who appear to be getting the Lion's share here.
OTOH, $13B is nowhere near what they screwed out of people. This will still be a net gain for JPM. Not that I'm making a value judgement. Pension funds have managers, right?
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:37 pm

Pyperkub wrote: Or $13b ;), but they did screw over a lot of people, in fraudulent fashion, in particular the Pension funds, who appear to be getting the Lion's share here.
I was differentiating between what the NYT was calling "fines" vs the rest of it. And if it wasn't political, why are the feds participating in what ought to be a civil suit?
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:51 pm

noxiousdog wrote: And if it wasn't political, why are the feds participating in what ought to be a civil suit?
I'm guessing that by way of the deals involvement of the Fed and the US Treasury that it falls to the DOJ.
DOJ wrote:The Civil Division’s responsibilities include ensuring the Federal Government speaks with one voice in its view of the law; preserving the intent of Congress; advancing the credibility of the government before the courts; and protecting the public fisc (the U.S. treasury).
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by noxiousdog » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:01 pm

It's a nice loophole, but I'm not sure the public was at risk. Unless we are going to go back to corporations are people.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:26 pm

noxiousdog wrote:It's a nice loophole, but I'm not sure the public was at risk. Unless we are going to go back to corporations are people.
The deal involved the Federal Reserve and US Treasury. Which falls under the DOJ purvey. It's more than a loophole.


IMO this is a symbolic slap that JPM secretly welcomes because it precludes a lot of other actions (and also IMO, will lessen the pursuit of any criminal charges, even against Dimon).
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:22 pm

Civil Suit - BofA liable for Countrywide loan practices(no damages so far, AFAIK):
NEW YORK — Bank of America was found liable for fraud Wednesday for a program — dubbed "the Hustle" — that caused millions in losses to federally backed mortgage finance firms Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac amid fallout from the financial crisis.

The civil verdict by a Manhattan federal court jury similarly found the bank's Countrywide Financial unit found liable, and also determined that former Countrywide executive Rebecca Mairone committed fraud while overseeing the loan-origination program.
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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Scuzz » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:00 pm

John Stewart did his opening last night on the JP Morgan Fine. He did a pretty good job of showing the hypocrisy of the bitching people are doing over the fine. He pulled up footage and quotes from various people showing that JP Morgan knew what they were buying (and how the CEO had put $25b aside for a possible fine) and how analysts thought the deal was a great deal for JP Morgan at the time regardless of the B&S problems.

He does a pretty good job of putting Cramer and several CNBC financial analysts in their place.

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Re: What's keeping megabank execs out of jail? Fear.

Post by Scuzz » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:01 pm

Pyperkub wrote:Civil Suit - BofA liable for Countrywide loan practices(no damages so far, AFAIK):
NEW YORK — Bank of America was found liable for fraud Wednesday for a program — dubbed "the Hustle" — that caused millions in losses to federally backed mortgage finance firms Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac amid fallout from the financial crisis.

The civil verdict by a Manhattan federal court jury similarly found the bank's Countrywide Financial unit found liable, and also determined that former Countrywide executive Rebecca Mairone committed fraud while overseeing the loan-origination program.
So you think that would lead to criminal charges of fraud....yea, right.

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