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LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

For discussion of religion and politics

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GreenGoo
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:05 pm

hepcat wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:54 am
I think Fireball hit the nail on the head. The question of fairness due to physiology is a logical one, but it gets buried by those who want to view it through the lens of prejudice and downplay it as ridiculous, instead of trying to address it as a serious question.
In fairness to the original question Moliere posted and ignoring the emotional examples and the questionable appeals to authority, simply agreeing that when someone claims they are a certain gender they have the right to compete as that gender can result in complications that are potentially (or increasingly) dangerous up to and including life threatening. These questions need to be addressed.

Outside of competition, it is my opinion that it costs society nothing to simply accept and support assertions of gender identity, and provides many benefits in lots of different ways to both the person in question and society in general. That doesn't hold true for competition, particularly highly physical competition.

While I don't agree that there is a clearly defined hard line separating genders in gender based competition, neither do I think it should be whichever gender a person identifies as is the gender they are allowed to compete as. Just because we want equality and want societal justice for all doesn't mean we ignore realities and pretend what we want to be true is true and condemn others who won't join the group delusion.

Max posted the IOC rules which I think are a good starting place, because presumably they are giving this reasoned and thorough thought backed by science. This is their bread and butter after all, and they've been at this a long time with much international scrutiny and pressure. I don't actually know that's true (reasoned opinion backed by science) nor do I want to put myself in a position to second guess the IOC. I withhold judgement on whether they are the final arbiter on what *should* be the guidelines, as any single organization can be monolithic and potentially narrative or politically driven. They certainly have every right to make their own rules, I'm just not willing to evaluate them based on my limited understanding of the entirety of complications that surround transgender/gender competition.

Like I said, the IOC is probably a good place to start. Whether it ends there or not, I'll take a wait and see attitude.

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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:11 pm

hepcat wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:25 pm
That's a little different than a free for all of women and men doing their business at the same time.
Agreed. Plenty of places for decades have had a single washroom that is only accessible by one person, whichever gender they happen to be. That's hardly the same thing as multi-person genderless bathrooms.

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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by GungHo » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:41 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:11 pm
hepcat wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:25 pm
That's a little different than a free for all of women and men doing their business at the same time.
Agreed. Plenty of places for decades have had a single washroom that is only accessible by one person, whichever gender they happen to be. That's hardly the same thing as multi-person genderless bathrooms.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by Daehawk » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:57 pm

Single person bathrooms were my lifeline in the 90s with all the shopping we did then. One year I got sick on the way to the mall and the store we entered the mall through had a single use restroom for both anyone and handicapped. Between one end and the other Im glad I was alone for it all. Then I left and headed to where my wife was only to make it half way and have to run back to the bathroom. I did that 3 times. I had to go back a couple more times after meeting her.

For some reason after that trip I had what we called panic attacks. Not full blown like you see acted out on tv. I just got sick at my stomach for the next 4 or 5 mall trips. That bathroom was very helpful to me. I still haven't forgotten that to this day. It finally stopped happening I guess because it saw I was not giving up the mall :) That was late 1994 or early 1995.

The last few years going to the movies I dreaded it because I always had to go once or twice during movies and they only have the 4 stall and some trough type restroom. Hated it. But in 2016 and 2017 somehow I could wait out the entire movie and either go before we left ...if I could....or hold it home. One trip I couldn't go with it so crowded so had to wait until home . Luckily home is just up the road.

Man I miss my wife so much thinking of these memories. :(
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:29 pm

WaPo
In a contentious meeting years in the making, the United States’s third-largest faith community voted to emphasize its opposition to same-sex marriage and gay clergy — a decision which was cheered by conservatives in the global church, especially in Africa, but was deeply disappointing to many Americans who were eager for change.

Many American ministers in the United Methodist Church already perform same-sex marriages and approve of the ordination of LGBT people as clergy, although the Protestant church’s rules officially forbid these marriages and ordinations. Many Methodists hoped that the church would amend those rules this week. Instead, a group of more than 800 clergy and lay leaders from around the world voted to affirm the church’s traditional view of sexuality — and to punish disobedient clergy more harshly than before.
...
But presented with several options during a four-day special session on the future of the church in St. Louis, the delegates picked the “traditional plan,” with 53 percent voting in favor. Other options would have allowed local churches to choose their stance on sexuality for themselves, or would have split the church into separate denominations.

The choice raises the question of whether churches that hoped for a different outcome will leave the denomination. The United Methodist Church is the largest mainline — meaning nonevangelical — Protestant church in the United States. Most other mainline Protestant churches do perform LGBT marriages, including the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the Episcopal Church, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Each of those denominations lost some churches to more conservative faith groups when they decided to affirm same-sex marriage.
...
The end of the meeting was rushed: The Methodists needed to leave, because a monster truck rally was scheduled next in the stadium.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by hepcat » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:27 pm

I was raised Methodist. It always struck me as odd that they never could figure out why they had a small African American congregation. I would think the giant burning cross they use for a symbol might be a clue...
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by Fireball » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:36 am

The UMC symbol is not a "burning" cross, it's a combination of the symbols for the Holy Spirit and for Jesus. The UMC was formed 51 years ago from three Methodist churches. In the United States, its membership is overwhelmingly progressive. Unfortunately, about a third of the church is located in Africa and other parts of the world where LGBT people are oppressed. Two thirds of the American UMC delegates at the convention this week supported LGBT inclusion, but they were outvoted by the far-right overseas congregations working in concert with the shrinking minority of anti-LGBT American members.

It's time for the progressive UMC congregations to break away from the denomination and form a proper, progressive church.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:40 am

Cross and Flame
Adopted shortly after the merger of The Methodist Church and the Evangelical United Brethren Church, it relates The United Methodist church to God through Christ (cross) and the Holy Spirit (flame). The flame is a reminder of Pentecost when witnesses were unified by the power of the Holy Spirit and saw "tongues, as of fire" (Acts 2:3).The two tongues of a single flame may also be understood to represent the union of two denominations. The two separate flames represent the Evangelical United Brethren Church and the Methodist Church coming together to form the United Methodist Church.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:47 am

Fireball wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:36 am
The UMC symbol is not a "burning" cross, it's a combination of the symbols for the Holy Spirit and for Jesus.
I took it as a joke. I chuckled. I don't think anyone thinks it's actually a burning cross but it is a quirky symbol.

Fireball wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:36 am
It's time for the progressive UMC congregations to break away from the denomination and form a proper, progressive church.
Oh goodie, I love schisms!
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