LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Fireball »

RLMullen wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:So long as the Republican Party is rife with Evangelical Christians in the South and Mormon church members in the West, its base will be solidly anti-gay.
Don't ignore Catholics in this equation. Catholics aren't as vocal as the other two, but many will vote in line with the church once they are behind the curtain.
The recent polling on this issue indicates that Catholics are more likely than the population at large to support marriage equality. There's no indication that Catholics are likely to say one thing in public and vote differently in private.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Fireball1244 wrote:The recent polling on this issue indicates that Catholics are more likely than the population at large to support marriage equality.
Including a priest I've known for years, who recently told me that the Supreme Court "had better not mess it up." He may have used stronger language. And he may have been a bit tipsy at the time.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Fireball1244 wrote:
Senator Kay Hagan, who was the most recent to announce support for equality, runs for re-election next year in a state that in early 2012 voted about 70% in favor of a gay marriage ban.
I'm probably just too much of a skeptic. I don't have a lot of faith in politicians, I see them doing whatever it takes to win.
Fireball1244 wrote:
So long as the Republican Party is rife with Evangelical Christians in the South and Mormon church members in the West, its base will be solidly anti-gay.
I can't say much for the evangelical Christians but there has been a shift within members of the Mormon church. I think the numbers are still overwhelmingly against allowing gay marriage, but there are more supporters than there were just 5 years ago, and the church itself has softened its stance in just the last 5 years, not to mention the last 20+ years. I don't think by any means that will mean you will see gay Mormon bishops or gay marriages performed in LDS church or temples ever but I do think more and more members of the church will decide legalization of gay marriage is ok by them. In ten years time I could see more Mormons taking the same stance most have taken with alcohol- choosing not to participate but not having any desire to outlaw it. Just my two cents on the matter.

Looking at the big picture the Mormon hold on the west only is strong in Utah and Idaho, maybe Wyoming and these are not populous states anyways. It wouldn't surprise me if most red western states start swinging with public approval of gay marriage in the next decade. Again just my opinion though based off nothing but my personal observations and feelings.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Chrisoc13 wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
Senator Kay Hagan, who was the most recent to announce support for equality, runs for re-election next year in a state that in early 2012 voted about 70% in favor of a gay marriage ban.
I'm probably just too much of a skeptic. I don't have a lot of faith in politicians, I see them doing whatever it takes to win.
Cynicism is poisonous to representative government.
I can't say much for the evangelical Christians but there has been a shift within members of the Mormon church. I think the numbers are still overwhelmingly against allowing gay marriage, but there are more supporters than there were just 5 years ago, and the church itself has softened its stance in just the last 5 years, not to mention the last 20+ years.
Within the last 5 years, the LDS has been pumping mountains of cash into anti-gay hate groups like the National Organization for Marriage. The LDS bankrolled much of the pro-Proposition 8 movement just over four years ago, and gave large donations to groups fighting equality in Maryland, Washington, Minnesota and Maine last year. It is, perhaps, the most dedicated and unabashedly anti-gay institution in the nation. That's to say nothing of the LDS's behind the scenes and public efforts to ensure that the Boy Scouts of America continues to tell gay kids that they are worthless vermin undeserving of membership in Scouting.I will never forget or forgive that hate, malice and harm their efforts have encouraged.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Fireball1244 wrote:
Cynicism is poisonous to representative government.
Then it's a shame they bring the cynicism on themselves.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Fireball1244 wrote:

Within the last 5 years, the LDS has been pumping mountains of cash into anti-gay hate groups like the National Organization for Marriage. The LDS bankrolled much of the pro-Proposition 8 movement just over four years ago, and gave large donations to groups fighting equality in Maryland, Washington, Minnesota and Maine last year. It is, perhaps, the most dedicated and unabashedly anti-gay institution in the nation. That's to say nothing of the LDS's behind the scenes and public efforts to ensure that the Boy Scouts of America continues to tell gay kids that they are worthless vermin undeserving of membership in Scouting.I will never forget or forgive that hate, malice and harm their efforts have encouraged.
I was just sharing my perspective as someone who is a member of the Mormon church and my observations of not only the church itself but the opinions of the members. I understand you are very passionate about the subject and by no means did I intend to slight you. I can say that the church has actually changed it's stance on several gay issues within the last five years. And those changes are not insignificant. Within the last 20 years even more changes have occurred. The lds church will never support gay marriage. To do so would be dishonest to the doctrine of the church. But it would not surprise me to see them retreat from the fight against gay marriage. Younger members are already more willing to accept it. Just thought the perspective of someone on the inside would be helpful.

As a note though most members of the lds church and certainly the lds church itself does not consider itself anti gay in the way you described. I understand that you feel that way and by no means am a discrediting that but I feel to be fair that should be noted. Anti gay marriage yes. Anti gays? I hope not. Certainly that isn't what is taught.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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How can anyone openly support un equality for people? This..among many things....does not in the least affect any of these haters. They can still get married just fine. If gays got the rights everyone else has a gay couple is not going to spontaneously move in with these haters. Not a single thing affects anyone. You dont have to go gay if they get equal rights. you dont have to get a divorce because of it.

Its like these people and churches around me who constantly block beer and alcohol sales in restaurants or on Sunday. They dont have to buy it yet they constantly tell other's what they can and cant do. Its appalling. Even Jesus supposedly turned a river into wine.

Give people the rights afforded to other's. Really pisses me off that me and my wife can be married and be protected with laws yet another couple who is just as in love as us has no control over their own family. Shameful. This should not even be up for debate. It should just be. Yes Im mad.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Daehawk wrote:How can anyone openly support un equality for people? This..among many things....does not in the least affect any of these haters. They can still get married just fine. If gays got the rights everyone else has a gay couple is not going to spontaneously move in with these haters. Not a single thing affects anyone. You dont have to go gay if they get equal rights. you dont have to get a divorce because of it.

Its like these people and churches around me who constantly block beer and alcohol sales in restaurants or on Sunday. They dont have to buy it yet they constantly tell other's what they can and cant do. Its appalling. Even Jesus supposedly turned a river into wine.

Give people the rights afforded to other's. Really pisses me off that me and my wife can be married and be protected with laws yet another couple who is just as in love as us has no control over their own family. Shameful. This should not even be up for debate. It should just be. Yes Im mad.
Tell me about it, just because I want a stable of wives it is none of their business!
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Rip wrote:
Daehawk wrote:How can anyone openly support un equality for people? This..among many things....does not in the least affect any of these haters. They can still get married just fine. If gays got the rights everyone else has a gay couple is not going to spontaneously move in with these haters. Not a single thing affects anyone. You dont have to go gay if they get equal rights. you dont have to get a divorce because of it.

Its like these people and churches around me who constantly block beer and alcohol sales in restaurants or on Sunday. They dont have to buy it yet they constantly tell other's what they can and cant do. Its appalling. Even Jesus supposedly turned a river into wine.

Give people the rights afforded to other's. Really pisses me off that me and my wife can be married and be protected with laws yet another couple who is just as in love as us has no control over their own family. Shameful. This should not even be up for debate. It should just be. Yes Im mad.
Tell me about it, just because I want a stable of wives it is none of their business!
I personally think that should be legalized at the same time. The government has no business being involved in legislating what a marriage is beyond consenting age etc.

Plus throw that in along with gay marriage and then you might get those Mormon controlled western states (Utah, Idaho, etc) to come along... alright just kidding... :wink:
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Daehawk wrote:How can anyone openly support un equality for people? This..among many things....does not in the least affect any of these haters. They can still get married just fine. If gays got the rights everyone else has a gay couple is not going to spontaneously move in with these haters. Not a single thing affects anyone. You dont have to go gay if they get equal rights. you dont have to get a divorce because of it.

Its like these people and churches around me who constantly block beer and alcohol sales in restaurants or on Sunday. They dont have to buy it yet they constantly tell other's what they can and cant do. Its appalling. Even Jesus supposedly turned a river into wine.

Much of it is about privilege and self-worth, on a subconcious level. Having something that someone else doesn't can elevate someone in their own system of self valuation.

I wish I could find the study, but it was on how people took stock of their lives. Measure #1 was how they stacked up against their parents. In other words, were they better off now then their parents were at the same age. Depending on the results, they may resort to other measures, such as how they stacked up against their peers. Anyway, somewhere down the line they gain a greater sense of self worth if they had any status/protection denied to someone else. In this case that would be marriage.

In the same way, if they are denied a status/protection, they want to see it denied to everyone else. Your anti-alcohol laws example, for example.

That's not to say that the hateful treatment towards same-sex couples comes from this, but it does help to explain how some people are able to overcome the cognitive dissonance and support laws seemingly at odds with their moral/religious beliefs.
Daehawk wrote:Give people the rights afforded to other's. Really pisses me off that me and my wife can be married and be protected with laws yet another couple who is just as in love as us has no control over their own family. Shameful. This should not even be up for debate. It should just be. Yes Im mad.
My wife wrote a long letter to our reps explaining how denying gay marriages cheapens our own marriage. I tend to think that Illinois did good with unions but she doesn't think it's even close to the same thing and gets pretty riled up over the whole issue.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Rip wrote: Tell me about it, just because I want a stable of wives it is none of their business!
I concur.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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LawBeefaroni wrote:That's not to say that the hateful treatment towards same-sex couples comes from this, but it does help to explain how some people are able to overcome the cognitive dissonance and support laws seemingly at odds with their moral/religious beliefs.
Are there religions where this is a dissonance? I actually think in most cases people fall back on their religious beliefs to overcome the dissonance they feel about these things when faced with it in their lives (for example - actually knowing a gay couple and liking them).
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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LawBeefaroni wrote:My wife wrote a long letter to our reps explaining how denying gay marriages cheapens our own marriage.
My mother has the opinion that allowing gay marriage would cheapen hers. :roll:
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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stessier wrote: Are there religions where this is a dissonance? I actually think in most cases people fall back on their religious beliefs to overcome the dissonance they feel about these things when faced with it in their lives (for example - actually knowing a gay couple and liking them).
Maybe but in most cases it's probably internal to the religion. WWJD vs. WWOTS.

Of course somehow I don't think they'd fall back on religion to tell them what to eat on Fridays or to dictate acceptable internet content.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Isgrimnur wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:My wife wrote a long letter to our reps explaining how denying gay marriages cheapens our own marriage.
My mother has the opinion that allowing gay marriage would cheapen hers. :roll:
Well, in the sense of supply and demand, she's right. :wink: But since you can't sell a used marriage classic economics don't apply.


Actually, that got me thinking. Is there even an argument about the cost of gay marriage? I have to believe that I'd rather have the saved tax dollars in the hands of spendy gay couples than in government coffers. I mean there's absolutely nothing I can think of to make a case against allowing gay marriage.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... i-thought/" target="_blank
On Wednesday, I wrote about Justice Antonin Scalia’s comment that “there’s considerable disagreement among sociologists as to what the consequences of raising a child in a single-sex family, whether that is harmful to the child or not.”

It turns out Scalia’s comment was wronger than I thought — and wrong in a way that Scalia, in particular, should have known.
"The clear and consistent consensus in the social science profession is that across a wide range of indicators, children fare just as well when they are raised by same-sex parents when compared to children raised by opposite-sex parents."

Pretty definitive. And here’s the punchline: That paragraph isn’t buried in a press release on its blog or in an editorial from its trade magazine. It’s from the amicus curiae brief that the ASA filed in the very case Scalia was commenting on.
<realScience>Although to be fair, social "science" is kinda soft and squishy. :horse:<realScience>
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Daehawk wrote: Even Jesus supposedly turned a river into wine.
I'm no longer churchy but I can't let this go. Jesus never turned a river into wine. The reported miracle is that he turned water into wine...

...at a wedding feast. :D
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Chrisoc13 wrote:I was just sharing my perspective as someone who is a member of the Mormon church and my observations of not only the church itself but the opinions of the members. I understand you are very passionate about the subject and by no means did I intend to slight you.
Don't worry about that; I didn't feel slighted.
As a note though most members of the lds church and certainly the lds church itself does not consider itself anti gay in the way you described.
Well, it is. It is a viciously, hatefully anti-gay organization.
Anti gay marriage yes. Anti gays?
To be anti-equality is to be anti-gay.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Fireball »

Holman wrote:
Daehawk wrote: Even Jesus supposedly turned a river into wine.
I'm no longer churchy but I can't let this go. Jesus never turned a river into wine. The reported miracle is that he turned water into wine...

...at a wedding feast. :D
It was also Jesus's first public miracle.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by AWS260 »

Fireball1244 wrote:
Holman wrote:
Daehawk wrote: Even Jesus supposedly turned a river into wine.
I'm no longer churchy but I can't let this go. Jesus never turned a river into wine. The reported miracle is that he turned water into wine...

...at a wedding feast. :D
Moses, on the other hand, turned a river into blood. And every Sunday at Mass priests turn wine into Jesus's blood...

It gets confusing.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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What's with the religious hangups on wine and blood?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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One you bathe in during peace, the other during war.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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It's easy.

Wine is the blood of grapes.
Blood is the grapes of...no, wait...man is the...Jesus is the true vine...of...God is the husbandman...purgeth the grapes...
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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:lol:
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Chrisoc13 wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
Cynicism is poisonous to representative government.
Then it's a shame they bring the cynicism on themselves.
People are quick to notice when they think an elected official appears to be acting cynical, but completely ignore the many instances where they risk their position (ie, their job) to do what they think is right. The Kay Hagan example we're discussing here is an explicit example of that.

Here's a video of members of Congress standing up in protest of DOMA... in 1996, when it was wildly popular and politically unstoppable. This is political bravery. Senator Robb lost his reelection in 2000 in part because of his opposition to DOMA. John Kerry almost lost his seat in 1996 for the same reason:

Presuming constant cynicism from elected officials isn't just wrong, it makes representational government impossible.

I interact with elected officials constantly. Yes, there are folks who are deeply politically craven. And there are fanatics who won't budge from their position to the point that their unwillingness to compromise becomes harmful in and of itself. But regardless, virtually every elected official I've ever encountered, regardless of party, got into politics for a good or noble reason, and most are doing the best they can to do right by the people who sent them there -- both when they vote how they think the people at home would want them to vote, *and* when they vote differently.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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To us the government doesn't feel like it's for the people any longer. They get voted in then sit and sleep, dont go to votes, or if they do they simply vote the party line or more often simply vote what THEY want to vote. Their people back home they represent have no say in the voting process any longer. Sure they can call in and tell how they feel but no one listens. There's not a way for the general public to vote on any issue their representative would vote on in their stead any longer...never mind even know what IS being voted on. We send them to congress and that's that for our part in the Gov.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Fireball1244 wrote:
Chrisoc13 wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
Cynicism is poisonous to representative government.
Then it's a shame they bring the cynicism on themselves.
People are quick to notice when they think an elected official appears to be acting cynical, but completely ignore the many instances where they risk their position (ie, their job) to do what they think is right. The Kay Hagan example we're discussing here is an explicit example of that.
I appreciate her stand, but forgive me if I don't agree that she's risking that much. Losing her "job" that pays her less than her annual capital gains would be bruise to the ego more than anything else. She has $30,000,000 or so to get her through that tough stretch of unemployment.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Daehawk wrote:To us the government doesn't feel like it's for the people any longer. They get voted in then sit and sleep, dont go to votes, or if they do they simply vote the party line or more often simply vote what THEY want to vote. Their people back home they represent have no say in the voting process any longer. Sure they can call in and tell how they feel but no one listens. There's not a way for the general public to vote on any issue their representative would vote on in their stead any longer...never mind even know what IS being voted on. We send them to congress and that's that for our part in the Gov.
When was that ever different? Except for random fits of populism, government has always represented the rich and powerful before the average schlub. Is that truer now than it used to be? Certainly income inequality and the concentration of wealth have worsened steadily since the 1980s, and Citizens United cemented the equivalence of money and power. But aren't these developments just continuing a long historical trend? When was this populist democratic Golden Age that you think is lost?
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Holman »

American gov't has always reflected the tides of ideology, but it has usually tilted heavily towards the owners. Since we happen to live in the most politically polarized age since the Civil War, nobody is going to be happy with the whole.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Isgrimnur »

I'm almost certain that they stole that from Popehat's Facebook feed.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by LordMortis »

Defiant wrote:Woah, they have a ruling
Cool, long since thought of marriage as a tax status first (second really, after work benefits distribution) status and commitment to love or God or whatever you are committing to second, much like a social security card. That premise is the right premise IMO, it's basically tell "the Church" even though we're using the same words, this is about legal responsibilities, so please go bark somewhere else about Sodom which has no business here.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by geezer »

Im assuming that's an April Fools joke - just a not funny one - the kind a bunch of tax analysis think-tankers would think was hilarious?
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by LordMortis »

geezer wrote:Im assuming that's an April Fools joke - just a not funny one - the kind a bunch of tax analysis think-tankers would think was hilarious?
Too bad because it seems right to me. Also I'd expect breaking news to have caught up by now and it hasn't.
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Chrisoc13
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Chrisoc13 »

I found it decently humorous, as far as April fools jokes go. It is playing off the ruling for the Affordable Care Act last year. Sure it isn't bust a gut funny, but it is mildly entertaining.
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Fireball
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Fireball »

I thought it was funny.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by geezer »

Fireball1244 wrote:I thought it was funny.
Yeah, but you think Dallas is a better city than Austin, so your take on things is obviously suspect.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Zarathud »

Tax nerds are not known for their humor. A CPA firm sent an awkward April Fool's update about the IRS reality show "So you think you can deduct that" and accountant stereotype jokes:
- Why do accountants not read novels? Because the only numbers in them are page numbers.
- What's an accountant's idea of trashing a hotel room? Refusing to fill out the guest comment card.
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Kurth
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Kurth »

Fireball1244 wrote:
Anti gay marriage yes. Anti gays?
To be anti-equality is to be anti-gay.
Don't mean to stir the pot needlessly here, but I can't stand these categorizations.

On a run with a friend yesterday, we got into it on the degree to which being anti-Zionist (anti-Israel) necessarily makes you anti-Semitic.

I just think this is dicey territory. Being anti-equality is being anti-equality. Being anti-Israel is being anti-Israel. I think it's generally a bad move to employ the transitive property to transform one viewpoint we disagree with into another.
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Combustible Lemur
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Kurth wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
Anti gay marriage yes. Anti gays?
To be anti-equality is to be anti-gay.
Don't mean to stir the pot needlessly here, but I can't stand these categorizations.

On a run with a friend yesterday, we got into it on the degree to which being anti-Zionist (anti-Israel) necessarily makes you anti-Semitic.

I just think this is dicey territory. Being anti-equality is being anti-equality. Being anti-Israel is being anti-Israel. I think it's generally a bad move to employ the transitive property to transform one viewpoint we disagree with into another.
I agree with your philosophical point, but I think that shelter is one of the hurdles in the anti equality fights.

I'm not anti gay, just anti equality for gay people.
I'm not anti black, I'm just anti black people touching the same stuff as me
I'm not anti immigrant, I'm just anti more immigrants.

Yes it's easy to overgeneralize, and the Isreal/ semitism debate is a very good example of that problem. But, bigots have always used that fear of not being discerning enough to shelter their actual prejudices.
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