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LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:30 am

Max Peck wrote:
Fireball wrote:
Defiant wrote:His argument, IIUC, is that of conscientious objection, that people shouldn't be compelled to do something against their beliefs.
... Just like you can't be a soldier and conscientiously object to shooting at people.
Actually, that can and has been done -- conscientious objectors have served as battlefield medics. That being said, Kim Davis is no Desmond Doss.
Right, but we just happen to call everyone soldiers. You can't be an armed front line killer of the enemy and conscientiously object to shooting at people.

Being a medic IS being a soldier, but it's not fulfilling the primary role of infantry, which is to take and hold terrain, most often by shooting people.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by hepcat » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:37 am

Just like you can't be a soldier and conscientiously object to shooting at people.
Yes, there have been conscientious objectors who have joined the army in non combat roles. I don't believe Fireball was disputing this as he did add a caveat clearly meant to indicate as much.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Max Peck » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:57 am

It seems that equating conscientious objectors with those who refuse to serve is a trigger issue with me. We all have a few of those. :)
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Fireball » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:06 am

hepcat wrote:
Just like you can't be a soldier and conscientiously object to shooting at people.
Yes, there have been conscientious objectors who have joined the army in non combat roles. I don't believe Fireball was disputing this as he did add a caveat clearly meant to indicate as much.
Yes, I should have been more clear. I was trying to phrase it in a way that didn't include non-combat personnel.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:26 am

El Guapo wrote:So, Kim Davis' lawyer is saying that the Pope met with her in secret in Washington (inside the Vatican embassy) and urged her to "stay strong." The Vatican has said that it won't confirm or deny the meeting.
I guess that confidentiality thing isn't all it's cracked up to be. Vatican confirms meeting
Pope Francis met with Kentucky county clerk Kim Davis during the pope’s visit to the United States, the Vatican confirmed on Wednesday morning.

Rev. Manuel Dorantes, a spokesman for the Vatican, said to The Washington Post, “I do not deny that the meeting took place, but I have no comments to add.”

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by hepcat » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:31 am

Somebody must have made a pretty sizable donation to the church on her behalf.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:33 am

That has got to be a big feather in her cap. I dare say she might go to jail and stay there this time, because, you know, the pope said she's doing the Lord's work here.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Moliere » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:33 am

Do you really think they're going to meet and not make a big deal about it? It's like telling 10 people a secret and asking them to not tell anyone. You want the story to get out while pretending otherwise.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Jaymann » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:42 am

Wait a minute, she's Catholic? I thought in Kentucky that was a step away from atheist.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by stessier » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:52 am

Jaymann wrote:Wait a minute, she's Catholic? I thought in Kentucky that was a step away from atheist.
I don't think she is. Every time an article cites her conversion, it is to Christianity. Usually Catholics are pointed out as such, not grouped under that heading. But hard to tell for sure as it is certainly correct to say someone who converts to Catholicism converted to Christianity.

And Kentucky's contingent is no where near the lowest in the South. :)
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Xmann » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:55 am

Jaymann wrote:Wait a minute, she's Catholic? I thought in Kentucky that was a step away from atheist.
I believe I read where her parents are/were Catholics.

Regardless, according to her track record, would that matter? As long as she can twist things around to fit her agenda, that seems OK for her.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by El Guapo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:59 am

Xmann wrote:
Jaymann wrote:Wait a minute, she's Catholic? I thought in Kentucky that was a step away from atheist.
I believe I read where her parents are/were Catholics.

Regardless, according to her track record, would that matter? As long as she can twist things around to fit her agenda, that seems OK for her.
Yeah, this is right. She's not catholic. According to her lawyer the pope gave her two rosaries which she gave to her parents or grandparents or whatever since they're catholic.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Smoove_B » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:10 pm

GreenGoo wrote:That has got to be a big feather in her cap. I dare say she might go to jail and stay there this time, because, you know, the pope said she's doing the Lord's work here.
Or you could say she's now telling everyone she was endorsed by the leader of an organization that has institutionalized child abuse.

/runs out of thread

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Moliere » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:15 pm

She's not Catholic. She's an Apostolic Christian.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:15 pm

Pope: It is nice to meet you. I'm still trying to sort out this gay marriage thing and am interested in the way the winds are blowing in the US.
Davis: I don't know much about weather, I was just exercising my rights as an elected official to stop people from disrespecting God.
Pope: Haha, yes, the weather, very funny. But don't you, as an elected official have...
Davis: Wait, you wear a pope hat and a one of those yarm..yam...beanies? Are you Jewish?
Pope: I do wear a mitre and a zucchetto, yes. It's a long story. No, I'm not Jewish. But about your responsibilities as a...
Davis: WOW, cool, can I get some of those bead necklaces for my folks?
Pope: *sigh, rolleyes*...sure, take as many as you want. We have some fine Italian candies in the lobby as well, on your way out. Yes, that way, thank you, bye!
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Fireball » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:20 pm

Moliere wrote:She's not Catholic. She's an Apostolic Christian.
What's really weird is that I wouldn't be surprised if many in her church think that the Anti-Christ will be a pope. That's a common belief amongst evangelicals, particularly ones that try to claim the term "apostolic".
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by hepcat » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:45 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:Pope: It is nice to meet you. I'm still trying to sort out this gay marriage thing and am interested in the way the winds are blowing in the US.
Davis: I don't know much about weather, I was just exercising my rights as an elected official to stop people from disrespecting God.
Pope: Haha, yes, the weather, very funny. But don't you, as an elected official have...
Davis: Wait, you wear a pope hat and a one of those yarm..yam...beanies? Are you Jewish?
Pope: I do wear a mitre and a zucchetto, yes. It's a long story. No, I'm not Jewish. But about your responsibilities as a...
Davis: WOW, cool, can I get some of those bead necklaces for my folks?
Pope: *sigh, rolleyes*...sure, take as many as you want. We have some fine Italian candies in the lobby as well, on your way out. Yes, that way, thank you, bye!
Alternate scenario:

Pope: Yes, my child. What can I do for you?
Kim: I just heard you speak and I have one question.
Pope: Yes?
Kim: Are you Dracula?
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by gameoverman » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:38 pm

The Pope is a world leader, so I don't have a problem with him sticking his two cents in by talking about it. I do have a problem with him meeting with this woman. These are legal issues, he has no chance to do anything positive by meeting her. All this does is stir the pot.

I'm not against the idea of a conscientious objector. However, this means you have to take another position, maybe a LESSER position if that's all that's available as an alternate choice. If you remain in the same position but do not fulfill all your legal duties, then you also take a pay cut. That pay then goes to the person or persons who perform those duties. In short, you won't be forced to do it but it might cost you your job and/or money. Finally, if you hold a certain position, and your name and position is printed on the paperwork, then that remains the case as long as you serve in that position. You don't get to remove your name until you leave that position.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by hepcat » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:41 pm

She can't really claim to be a conscientious objector in my book. Most conscientious objectors don't actively try to prevent the other soldiers from firing their guns during a war.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:42 pm

Nor man a firing position and refuse to fire at those wearing blue, and refusing to give up the weapon to those who would.

Geez, could this metaphor get any more strained?

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by hepcat » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:45 pm

Let's find out.

Rip? You there?
Last edited by hepcat on Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Rip » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:23 pm

hepcat wrote:Let's find it.

Rip? You there?
You can't claim to love babies and then work at an abortion clinic.

How is that?

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by El Guapo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:25 pm

Rip wrote:
hepcat wrote:Let's find it.

Rip? You there?
You can't claim to love babies and then work at an abortion clinic.

How is that?
You didn't even work in Hillary Clinton there. I'm disappointed.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Rip » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:28 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Rip wrote:
hepcat wrote:Let's find it.

Rip? You there?
You can't claim to love babies and then work at an abortion clinic.

How is that?
You didn't even work in Hillary Clinton there. I'm disappointed.
Oh, sorry. I will try again.

ou can't claim to hate the oil industry and oppose their pipeline and then have them host a fundraiser for you taking in millions.

Better?

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by El Guapo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:28 pm

Rip wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Rip wrote:
hepcat wrote:Let's find it.

Rip? You there?
You can't claim to love babies and then work at an abortion clinic.

How is that?
You didn't even work in Hillary Clinton there. I'm disappointed.
Oh, sorry. I will try again.

ou can't claim to hate the oil industry and oppose their pipeline and then have them host a fundraiser for you taking in millions.

Better?
Much better. Thank you.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Rip » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:30 pm

Just to note I am heavily multi-tasking today so forgive my lack vigor and spite.

The databases to count all the oil money must come first.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Jaymann » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:07 pm

You can't run away to Canada and then refuse to apologize for it.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:43 pm

I did not know that Kim Davis had decided to sue the Kentucky Governor too - chutzpah!
Absurd." "Forlorn." "Obtuse."

Those are some of the words lawyers for Kentucky's Gov. Steve Beshear used to describe a lawsuit that county clerk Kim Davis brought against the governor as she fights to avoid issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

Davis, who spent five days in jail for defying a series of federal court orders – and met with Pope Francis when he visited the U.S. last week – alleges that Beshear, a Democrat, "usurped control of Kentucky marriage law" and violated her religious freedom by asking clerks to comply with a U.S. Supreme Court decision that legalized gay marriage nationwide.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Xmann » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:45 pm

Pyperkub wrote:I did not know that Kim Davis had decided to sue the Kentucky Governor too - chutzpah!
Absurd." "Forlorn." "Obtuse."

Those are some of the words lawyers for Kentucky's Gov. Steve Beshear used to describe a lawsuit that county clerk Kim Davis brought against the governor as she fights to avoid issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

Davis, who spent five days in jail for defying a series of federal court orders – and met with Pope Francis when he visited the U.S. last week – alleges that Beshear, a Democrat, "usurped control of Kentucky marriage law" and violated her religious freedom by asking clerks to comply with a U.S. Supreme Court decision that legalized gay marriage nationwide.
If this ever sees the light of day it's a disgrace to the judicial system

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:38 pm

Time: The Difference Between Kim Davis and a Conscientious Objector
The pope is correct in saying that many people feel they have the right to defy a law that seems unjust or immoral, but he is wrong to think that violators of a law should go unpunished. Let’s be clear: Those who engage in civil disobedience do so knowing that they will be punished. The strategy of civil disobedience is to have enough people paying such a high price that society reels from the cruelty and unfairness of it, and pressures legislators to change the law. Conscientious objectors don’t whine about going to jail. The whole point of civil disobedience is to go to jail—and to inspire others to go to jail—until society can’t take it anymore and demands a change in the law that sent them to jail. Think of Ghandi’s non-violent protests in South Africa and India, the anti-apartheid movement, African Americans in the 60’s, Vietnam protesters in the early 70’s, etc.
...
I agree with the pope on one point: Davis has a right to her opinion, and though I disagree with her, I would fight to the death to defend her right to believe what she wants. But the controversy surrounding this county clerk is not about what she believes, but rather about the job a county clerk is required to do by law, which includes issuing marriage licenses to those qualified couples who apply for them. Kim Davis has a constitutional right to her opinion, but she does not have a constitutional right to stay in a job whose duties she is unwilling to perform.

If Davis’s conscientious objection doesn’t inspire anyone else to go to jail for the same cause, then she is not a hero, but merely an outlier and a one-off lawbreaker. Even if he opposes marriage equality, the pope would do well to stay away from this one.

The Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson is a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress, Washington, DC, and the retired Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire. Follow him on Twitter @BishopGRobinson

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Max Peck » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:12 am

Vatican claims that the Pope did not, in fact, endorse Davis
The brief meeting between Mrs. Kim Davis and Pope Francis at the Apostolic Nunciature in Washington, DC has continued to provoke comments and discussion. In order to contribute to an objective understanding of what transpired I am able to clarify the following points:

Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope’s characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Xmann » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:24 am

Max Peck wrote:Vatican claims that the Pope did not, in fact, endorse Davis
The brief meeting between Mrs. Kim Davis and Pope Francis at the Apostolic Nunciature in Washington, DC has continued to provoke comments and discussion. In order to contribute to an objective understanding of what transpired I am able to clarify the following points:

Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope’s characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects.
Shocking

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:06 am

Oh, and that Peru prayer rally picture? Not for her.
Last Friday prior to Kim Davis being presented with the “Cost of Discipleship” award at the Values Voter Summit, Mat Staver, Founder and Chairman of Liberty Counsel, spoke for 8 to 10 minutes and flashed a photograph of a large Christian gathering in a Peruvian soccer field.

Julio Rosas, a member of the Peruvian Congress, met personally with Mat Staver and Kim Davis the day prior to the award, explained the prayer meeting, and presented the photograph. The decision to add the photograph to the speech was made at the last minute. When some questioned whether such a large event occurred, Liberty Counsel sought verification this past Saturday and yesterday. It now appears that while prayer meetings did occur throughout Peru, the photograph presented to Mat Staver was an honest mistake and was of a different Christian assembly in a soccer field.
...
While people in Peru did pray on September 13, we have now learned that the photograph was not of the prayer meeting.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:07 am

Sounds like she's delusional enough to give Donald Trump some serious competition.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Jaymann » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:51 am

Unfortunately the bitch is now set for life. Once she loses her gig with the county, she can work the circus tent circuit, laying hands on fake paraplegics. The crowd will find the combination of fundamentalism, homophobia and backwoods troll irresistible. They can crown her The Cunt from Kentuck.
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:41 am

She's a bit of a bumpkin and I think any media circuit that actually cares enough to pay her for an appearance is going to be small and short lived. Especially since she herself is not particularly interesting, well spoken or even coherent in her message.

I suspect she'll be at the 5 dollar per autograph table at local fairs in short order.

That said, she was elected to her position, so she much has some pull within the community itself.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Max Peck » Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:43 pm

GreenGoo wrote:She's a bit of a bumpkin and I think any media circuit that actually cares enough to pay her for an appearance is going to be small and short lived. Especially since she herself is not particularly interesting, well spoken or even coherent in her message.

I suspect she'll be at the 5 dollar per autograph table at local fairs in short order.

That said, she was elected to her position, so she much has some pull within the community itself.
Meh, it looks like it's the family business. She was a deputy clerk under her mother, as her son is a deputy clerk under her.

There are some good Jedi/Sith jokes in there, but it will take someone cleverer than me to ferret them out. "I am a county clerk, like my mother before me" or "Always two there are" or something like that (but funny).
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:49 pm

Max Peck wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:She's a bit of a bumpkin and I think any media circuit that actually cares enough to pay her for an appearance is going to be small and short lived. Especially since she herself is not particularly interesting, well spoken or even coherent in her message.

I suspect she'll be at the 5 dollar per autograph table at local fairs in short order.

That said, she was elected to her position, so she much has some pull within the community itself.
Meh, it looks like it's the family business. She was a deputy clerk under her mother, as her son is a deputy clerk under her.

There are some good Jedi/Sith jokes in there, but it will take someone cleverer than me to ferret them out. "I am a county clerk, like my mother before me" or "Always two there are" or something like that (but funny).
Oh I don't doubt that there is some roles that stay in the family, even elected ones. That doesn't change my opinion on the situation much however.

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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Max Peck » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:05 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:...
That said, she was elected to her position, so she much has some pull within the community itself.
Meh, it looks like it's the family business. She was a deputy clerk under her mother, as her son is a deputy clerk under her.

There are some good Jedi/Sith jokes in there, but it will take someone cleverer than me to ferret them out. "I am a county clerk, like my mother before me" or "Always two there are" or something like that (but funny).
Oh I don't doubt that there is some roles that stay in the family, even elected ones. That doesn't change my opinion on the situation much however.
I was only reacting to the last line (I should have been more selective when quoting you). I'm not trying to change anyone's mind -- I just want a funny Darth Davis meme. I'd do it myself, but I want it to be, you know, funny. :)
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Xmann
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Re: Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases

Post by Xmann » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Jaymann wrote:Unfortunately the bitch is now set for life. Once she loses her gig with the county, she can work the circus tent circuit, laying hands on fake paraplegics. The crowd will find the combination of fundamentalism, homophobia and backwoods troll irresistible. They can crown her The Cunt from Kentuck.
The Cunt from Kentuck, lol

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