Octopus Overlords

Max Peck wrote:

Fireball wrote:

Defiant wrote:His argument, IIUC, is that of conscientious objection, that people shouldn't be compelled to do something against their beliefs.

... Just like you can't be a soldier and conscientiously object to shooting at people.

Actually, that can and has been done -- conscientious objectors have served as battlefield medics. That being said, Kim Davis is no Desmond Doss.

Just like you can't be a soldier and conscientiously object to shooting at people.

hepcat wrote:

Just like you can't be a soldier and conscientiously object to shooting at people.

Yes, there have been conscientious objectors who have joined the army in non combat roles. I don't believe Fireball was disputing this as he did add a caveat clearly meant to indicate as much.

El Guapo wrote:So, Kim Davis' lawyer is saying that the Pope met with her in secret in Washington (inside the Vatican embassy) and urged her to "stay strong." The Vatican has said that it won't confirm or deny the meeting.

Pope Francis met with Kentucky county clerk Kim Davis during the pope’s visit to the United States, the Vatican confirmed on Wednesday morning.

Rev. Manuel Dorantes, a spokesman for the Vatican, said to The Washington Post, “I do not deny that the meeting took place, but I have no comments to add.”

Jaymann wrote:Wait a minute, she's Catholic? I thought in Kentucky that was a step away from atheist.

Jaymann wrote:Wait a minute, she's Catholic? I thought in Kentucky that was a step away from atheist.

Xmann wrote:

Jaymann wrote:Wait a minute, she's Catholic? I thought in Kentucky that was a step away from atheist.

I believe I read where her parents are/were Catholics.

Regardless, according to her track record, would that matter? As long as she can twist things around to fit her agenda, that seems OK for her.

GreenGoo wrote:That has got to be a big feather in her cap. I dare say she might go to jail and stay there this time, because, you know, the pope said she's doing the Lord's work here.

Moliere wrote:She's not Catholic. She's an Apostolic Christian.

LawBeefaroni wrote:Pope: It is nice to meet you. I'm still trying to sort out this gay marriage thing and am interested in the way the winds are blowing in the US.
Davis: I don't know much about weather, I was just exercising my rights as an elected official to stop people from disrespecting God.
Pope: Haha, yes, the weather, very funny. But don't you, as an elected official have...
Davis: Wait, you wear a pope hat and a one of those yarm..yam...beanies? Are you Jewish?
Pope: I do wear a mitre and a zucchetto, yes. It's a long story. No, I'm not Jewish. But about your responsibilities as a...
Davis: WOW, cool, can I get some of those bead necklaces for my folks?
Pope: *sigh, rolleyes*...sure, take as many as you want. We have some fine Italian candies in the lobby as well, on your way out. Yes, that way, thank you, bye!

hepcat wrote:Let's find it.

Rip? You there?

Rip wrote:

hepcat wrote:Let's find it.

Rip? You there?

You can't claim to love babies and then work at an abortion clinic.

How is that?

El Guapo wrote:

Rip wrote:

hepcat wrote:Let's find it.

Rip? You there?

You can't claim to love babies and then work at an abortion clinic.

How is that?

You didn't even work in Hillary Clinton there. I'm disappointed.

Rip wrote:

El Guapo wrote:

Rip wrote:

hepcat wrote:Let's find it.

Rip? You there?

You can't claim to love babies and then work at an abortion clinic.

How is that?

You didn't even work in Hillary Clinton there. I'm disappointed.

Oh, sorry. I will try again.

ou can't claim to hate the oil industry and oppose their pipeline and then have them host a fundraiser for you taking in millions.

Better?

Absurd." "Forlorn." "Obtuse."

Those are some of the words lawyers for Kentucky's Gov. Steve Beshear used to describe a lawsuit that county clerk Kim Davis brought against the governor as she fights to avoid issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

Davis, who spent five days in jail for defying a series of federal court orders – and met with Pope Francis when he visited the U.S. last week – alleges that Beshear, a Democrat, "usurped control of Kentucky marriage law" and violated her religious freedom by asking clerks to comply with a U.S. Supreme Court decision that legalized gay marriage nationwide.

Pyperkub wrote:I did not know that Kim Davis had decided to sue the Kentucky Governor too - chutzpah!

Absurd." "Forlorn." "Obtuse."

Those are some of the words lawyers for Kentucky's Gov. Steve Beshear used to describe a lawsuit that county clerk Kim Davis brought against the governor as she fights to avoid issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

Davis, who spent five days in jail for defying a series of federal court orders – and met with Pope Francis when he visited the U.S. last week – alleges that Beshear, a Democrat, "usurped control of Kentucky marriage law" and violated her religious freedom by asking clerks to comply with a U.S. Supreme Court decision that legalized gay marriage nationwide.

The pope is correct in saying that many people feel they have the right to defy a law that seems unjust or immoral, but he is wrong to think that violators of a law should go unpunished. Let’s be clear: Those who engage in civil disobedience do so knowing that they will be punished. The strategy of civil disobedience is to have enough people paying such a high price that society reels from the cruelty and unfairness of it, and pressures legislators to change the law. Conscientious objectors don’t whine about going to jail. The whole point of civil disobedience is to go to jail—and to inspire others to go to jail—until society can’t take it anymore and demands a change in the law that sent them to jail. Think of Ghandi’s non-violent protests in South Africa and India, the anti-apartheid movement, African Americans in the 60’s, Vietnam protesters in the early 70’s, etc.
...
I agree with the pope on one point: Davis has a right to her opinion, and though I disagree with her, I would fight to the death to defend her right to believe what she wants. But the controversy surrounding this county clerk is not about what she believes, but rather about the job a county clerk is required to do by law, which includes issuing marriage licenses to those qualified couples who apply for them. Kim Davis has a constitutional right to her opinion, but she does not have a constitutional right to stay in a job whose duties she is unwilling to perform.

If Davis’s conscientious objection doesn’t inspire anyone else to go to jail for the same cause, then she is not a hero, but merely an outlier and a one-off lawbreaker. Even if he opposes marriage equality, the pope would do well to stay away from this one.

The Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson is a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress, Washington, DC, and the retired Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire. Follow him on Twitter @BishopGRobinson

The brief meeting between Mrs. Kim Davis and Pope Francis at the Apostolic Nunciature in Washington, DC has continued to provoke comments and discussion. In order to contribute to an objective understanding of what transpired I am able to clarify the following points:

Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope’s characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects.

Max Peck wrote:Vatican claims that the Pope did not, in fact, endorse Davis

The brief meeting between Mrs. Kim Davis and Pope Francis at the Apostolic Nunciature in Washington, DC has continued to provoke comments and discussion. In order to contribute to an objective understanding of what transpired I am able to clarify the following points:

Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope’s characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects.

Last Friday prior to Kim Davis being presented with the “Cost of Discipleship” award at the Values Voter Summit, Mat Staver, Founder and Chairman of Liberty Counsel, spoke for 8 to 10 minutes and flashed a photograph of a large Christian gathering in a Peruvian soccer field.

Julio Rosas, a member of the Peruvian Congress, met personally with Mat Staver and Kim Davis the day prior to the award, explained the prayer meeting, and presented the photograph. The decision to add the photograph to the speech was made at the last minute. When some questioned whether such a large event occurred, Liberty Counsel sought verification this past Saturday and yesterday. It now appears that while prayer meetings did occur throughout Peru, the photograph presented to Mat Staver was an honest mistake and was of a different Christian assembly in a soccer field.
...
While people in Peru did pray on September 13, we have now learned that the photograph was not of the prayer meeting.

GreenGoo wrote:She's a bit of a bumpkin and I think any media circuit that actually cares enough to pay her for an appearance is going to be small and short lived. Especially since she herself is not particularly interesting, well spoken or even coherent in her message.

I suspect she'll be at the 5 dollar per autograph table at local fairs in short order.

That said, she was elected to her position, so she much has some pull within the community itself.

Max Peck wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:She's a bit of a bumpkin and I think any media circuit that actually cares enough to pay her for an appearance is going to be small and short lived. Especially since she herself is not particularly interesting, well spoken or even coherent in her message.

I suspect she'll be at the 5 dollar per autograph table at local fairs in short order.

That said, she was elected to her position, so she much has some pull within the community itself.

Meh, it looks like it's the family business. She was a deputy clerk under her mother, as her son is a deputy clerk under her.

There are some good Jedi/Sith jokes in there, but it will take someone cleverer than me to ferret them out. "I am a county clerk, like my mother before me" or "Always two there are" or something like that (but funny).

GreenGoo wrote:

Max Peck wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:...
That said, she was elected to her position, so she much has some pull within the community itself.

Meh, it looks like it's the family business. She was a deputy clerk under her mother, as her son is a deputy clerk under her.

There are some good Jedi/Sith jokes in there, but it will take someone cleverer than me to ferret them out. "I am a county clerk, like my mother before me" or "Always two there are" or something like that (but funny).

Oh I don't doubt that there is some roles that stay in the family, even elected ones. That doesn't change my opinion on the situation much however.

Jaymann wrote:Unfortunately the bitch is now set for life. Once she loses her gig with the county, she can work the circus tent circuit, laying hands on fake paraplegics. The crowd will find the combination of fundamentalism, homophobia and backwoods troll irresistible. They can crown her The Cunt from Kentuck.