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Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

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Holman
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Holman » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:47 pm

A resolution was introduced in the House to congratulate Francis on his election, something done routinely as a friendly gesture to heads of state and, of course, popes. Not this time. House Republicans could not bring themselves officially to praise Francis on his elevation to the papacy.

Resolutions welcoming Pope Benedict passed in the House and Senate without controversy.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:27 pm

Lol.

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Zarathud » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:30 pm

Election year. Catholics vote.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:37 pm

Can't even be polite to another head of state because they are perceived as too liberal? Wow.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:48 pm

Zarathud wrote:Election year. Catholics vote.
So...they don't want those votes?

I'm not following.

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Rip » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:28 pm

Ahhh, religion. Always the great uniter....or is that igniter?

Both I suppose.

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by AWS260 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:38 pm

The pope's Christmas greeting: Get your shit together, people.
The New York Times wrote:Francis' Christmas greeting to the cardinals, bishops and priests who run the Holy See was no joyful exchange of holiday good wishes. Rather, it was a sobering catalog of 15 sins of the Curia that Francis said he hoped would be atoned for and cured in the New Year.

He had some zingers: How the "terrorism of gossip" can "kill the reputation of our colleagues and brothers in cold blood." How cliques can "enslave their members and become a cancer that threatens the harmony of the body" and eventually kill it by "friendly fire." About how those living hypocritical double lives are "typical of mediocre and progressive spiritual emptiness that no academic degree can fill."

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:30 pm

Take that, status quo!

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Holman » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:52 am

"Rogue Pope" is the archetype we never knew we were waiting for.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by $iljanus » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:32 am

AWS260 wrote:The pope's Christmas greeting: Get your shit together, people.
The New York Times wrote:Francis' Christmas greeting to the cardinals, bishops and priests who run the Holy See was no joyful exchange of holiday good wishes. Rather, it was a sobering catalog of 15 sins of the Curia that Francis said he hoped would be atoned for and cured in the New Year.

He had some zingers: How the "terrorism of gossip" can "kill the reputation of our colleagues and brothers in cold blood." How cliques can "enslave their members and become a cancer that threatens the harmony of the body" and eventually kill it by "friendly fire." About how those living hypocritical double lives are "typical of mediocre and progressive spiritual emptiness that no academic degree can fill."
At the end, Pope Francis drops big staff with cross on floor with a massive thud, says the equivalent of "Peace Out" in Latin, and dramatically turns and walks away from a speechless Curia.
tl;dr

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Drazzil » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:18 pm

I love this Pope.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by em2nought » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:14 pm

Drazzil wrote:I love this Pope.
Beats a Nazi for sure. :mrgreen:
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:55 am

Wow - missed this one somehow:
Just a few years ago, former St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Leo Burke was riding high. A conservative leader in a conservative Catholic Church under a conservative pope, he seemed to fall into the Vatican’s favor after taking a few high-profile stands against the godless.

The fights he picked always managed to make headlines. In 2004, the Wisconsin native said he would refuse to give pro-choice Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) communion. In 2007, he resigned from the board of a Catholic hospital after it invited Sheryl Crow, who is pro-choice, to play a benefit concert. And in 2009, he let the University of Notre Dame have it for giving President Obama an honorary degree...

...After a few high-profile disagreements with Burke, Francis made him patron of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, a charity. The Associated Press called the office “largely ceremonial.”

It was as if Chief Justice John Roberts had been sent to call balls and strikes at a little-league game. The Catholic News Service expounded upon the seriousness of Francis’s diss of the 66-year-old cardinal:

It is highly unusual for a pope to remove an official of Cardinal Burke’s stature and age without assigning him comparable responsibilities elsewhere. By church law, cardinals in the Vatican must offer to resign at 75, but often continue in office for several more years. As usual when announcing personnel changes other than retirements for reasons of age, the Vatican did not give a reason for the cardinal’s reassignment.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by AWS260 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:11 am

Burke is a real piece of work.
Burke, who was recently demoted from the Vatican's highest court to a ceremonial philanthropic post, pointed to the introduction of altar girls for why fewer men are joining the priesthood.

"Young boys don't want to do things with girls. It's just natural," Burke said in an interview published Monday. "I think that this has contributed to a loss of priestly vocations."

"It requires a certain manly discipline to serve as an altar boy in service at the side of priest, and most priests have their first deep experiences of the liturgy as altar boys," the former archbishop of St. Louis told Matthew James Christoff, who heads a Catholic men's ministry that called the New Emangelization Project.

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:21 pm

AWS260 wrote:Burke is a real piece of work.
Burke, who was recently demoted from the Vatican's highest court to a ceremonial philanthropic post, pointed to the introduction of altar girls for why fewer men are joining the priesthood.

"Young boys don't want to do things with girls. It's just natural," Burke said in an interview published Monday. "I think that this has contributed to a loss of priestly vocations."

"It requires a certain manly discipline to serve as an altar boy in service at the side of priest, and most priests have their first deep experiences of the liturgy as altar boys," the former archbishop of St. Louis told Matthew James Christoff, who heads a Catholic men's ministry that called the New Emangelization Project.
I did it to get out of class and for the cash tips. If there were girls involved, I probably would have done it longer.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:24 pm

Wait, what? Cash tips? I never got a tip for being an altar boy in my life!
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:26 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:Wait, what? Cash tips? I never got a tip for being an altar boy in my life!
Happy Holidays, baby. Also weddings and funerals.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by stessier » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:40 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:Wait, what? Cash tips? I never got a tip for being an altar boy in my life!
Happy Holidays, baby. Also weddings and funerals.
Never got it for the holidays, but yes for weddings (only did one funeral and it was a relative). After the ceremony, if there was no envelope waiting, we always went back to congratulate the happy couple on the way out of the Church. I must have done more than 30 weddings and only once was there nothing (and when the priest found out he gave us a tip out of his own wallet). $20 was the most common, $10 occasionally, $5 once.

I've always thought it was a weird custom though.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:55 pm

I don't think I ever served at a wedding or a funeral. I must have been on the B list or something.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:57 pm

stessier wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:Wait, what? Cash tips? I never got a tip for being an altar boy in my life!
Happy Holidays, baby. Also weddings and funerals.
Never got it for the holidays, but yes for weddings (only did one funeral and it was a relative). After the ceremony, if there was no envelope waiting, we always went back to congratulate the happy couple on the way out of the Church. I must have done more than 30 weddings and only once was there nothing (and when the priest found out he gave us a tip out of his own wallet). $20 was the most common, $10 occasionally, $5 once.

I've always thought it was a weird custom though.
You don't even know altar boys did weddings until you'd been on the job a while. That's because the gig never went to newbs. Way too lucrative. Funerals were tough, you had to be able to be somber and eminently respectful and sometimes had to travel.

Holidays were more gifts than cash, now that I think about it. Usually the weekday regulars would bring you a little something. Candy, baked goods, and oddly, lighters. I guess because of the candles? I got 2 Zippos over the course of my career.



The hardest mass I ever did was the funeral of a girl who I used to go to school with. She transferred to an all-girls school and a few years later she died from some kind of heart condition. She was on my rec baseball team years before and got teased a lot for it by other kids (only girl on the team and a total tomboy). I always regretted not sticking up for her more and for not recognizing how cool she was. Afterwards we went to the reception and one of the nuns kept trying to match me and my colleague up with the girls. It was surreal.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Holman » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:28 pm

Evangelical adolescence has its own things. I guess the altar boy equivalent is assisting with communion and collection, which I did lots of times. We had a church leadership program that actually saw me delivering a sermon from the pulpit on two occasions, but I did get tipped? Zippo.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:25 pm

They made our Boy Scout troop take over festivities for a Sunday.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Grifman » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:04 pm

Holman wrote:Evangelical adolescence has its own things. I guess the altar boy equivalent is assisting with communion and collection, which I did lots of times. We had a church leadership program that actually saw me delivering a sermon from the pulpit on two occasions, but I did get tipped? Zippo.
You don't get tipped for regular scheduled services. Altar boys get tipped because weddings and funerals are extra duty, just like most pastors, soloists and organists get paid/tipped.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:06 pm

Grifman wrote:
Holman wrote:Evangelical adolescence has its own things. I guess the altar boy equivalent is assisting with communion and collection, which I did lots of times. We had a church leadership program that actually saw me delivering a sermon from the pulpit on two occasions, but I did get tipped? Zippo.
You don't get tipped for regular scheduled services. Altar boys get tipped because weddings and funerals are extra duty, just like most pastors, soloists and organists get paid/tipped.
Yeah, we got a pittance compared to the priests.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Holman » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:52 pm

Grifman wrote:
Holman wrote:Evangelical adolescence has its own things. I guess the altar boy equivalent is assisting with communion and collection, which I did lots of times. We had a church leadership program that actually saw me delivering a sermon from the pulpit on two occasions, but I did get tipped? Zippo.
You don't get tipped for regular scheduled services. Altar boys get tipped because weddings and funerals are extra duty, just like most pastors, soloists and organists get paid/tipped.
And there I thought I just wasn't giving good Service.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by stessier » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:32 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: Funerals were tough, you had to be able to be somber and eminently respectful and sometimes had to travel.
Our parish had a group of adults who would serve the funerals. It was just way too depressing and usually happened during school hours. Weddings were always nights and weekends.

Thinking back, we also had two daily masses - like 7am and 6pm. They also switched to adults for the morning at one point but the evening was always boys.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Pyperkub » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:58 pm

AWS260 wrote:Burke is a real piece of work.
Burke, who was recently demoted from the Vatican's highest court to a ceremonial philanthropic post, pointed to the introduction of altar girls for why fewer men are joining the priesthood.

"Young boys don't want to do things with girls. It's just natural," Burke said in an interview published Monday. "I think that this has contributed to a loss of priestly vocations."

"It requires a certain manly discipline to serve as an altar boy in service at the side of priest, and most priests have their first deep experiences of the liturgy as altar boys," the former archbishop of St. Louis told Matthew James Christoff, who heads a Catholic men's ministry that called the New Emangelization Project.
It occurs to me that the only (best) way to serve God in Burke's mind is to be a dick. I do believe that view would work really well with Sharia law...
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:09 pm

Global Warming: "I don't know if it is all (man's fault) but the majority is. For the most part, it is man who continuously slaps down nature."
Francis also wants the world to do more to address it. He wasn't a big fan of the agreement that came out of last month's UN climate talks in Lima — in which every country agreed to put forward pledges to constrain carbon emissions, albeit entirely voluntary pledges.

"The Peru meeting was nothing much, it disappointed me," Francis said. "I think there was a lack of courage. They stopped at a certain point. Let's hope the delegates in Paris will be more courageous and move forward with this." By "Paris," he means the big UN summit at Paris in December, where countries are hoping to hammer out a final global accord on curtailing greenhouse-gas emissions and responding to climate change.

As Andrew Freedman points out at Mashable, the pope's comments are coming at exactly the moment that the US Senate is debating whether to approve a non-binding resolution that says humans are responsible for global warming. Many Republicans still seem to be cagey about agreeing to even this basic premise.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Fireball » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:21 pm

He's not perfect, but there probably won't be a better Pope in my lifetime.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Moliere » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:07 pm

The Pope said what?!? More stunners from Francis
Answering a question about birth control on Monday, Francis said that parents shouldn't procreate endlessly, trusting in God that it will all work out.

"But God gives you methods to be responsible," Francis said. "Some think that, excuse me if I use that word, that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits. No. Responsible parenthood."
I'm pretty sure god didn't give us any methods. Instead people figured out a way to work around the existing system to prevent pregnancies.
On his way to the Philippines last week, Francis was asked about the terrorist attack on the French magazine Charlie Hebdo. While denouncing terrorism, the Pope said there are limits to free speech.

"If Dr. Gasbarri, a great friend, says a swear word against my mother, then a punch awaits him," Francis said, referring to Alberto Gasbarri, a man who organizes papal trips and was then standing next to him on the plane.

"It's normal, it's normal. One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith, one cannot make fun of faith."

The Pope said Monday that, in theory, violence contradicts Jesus' "turn the other cheek" teachings, but in practice, people must be prudent enough not to needlessly provoke others -- unless they want to risk a harsh response.
The concept of the pope is as outdated as royalty. Get over yourself and stop acting like you have a direct line to a god. You're a joke and a hypocrite. Free speech trumps your hurt feelings.
"The Internet, in particular, offers immense possibilities for encounter and solidarity," Francis said last year. "This is something truly good, a gift from God."
And I thought it was a gift from Al Gore. :roll:
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:29 pm

He's using a fighting words doctrine, which in the US requires immediacy in the threat, to excuse calculated murders. So much for personal responsibility.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Zarathud » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:55 pm

Even if you're not Catholic or even religious, there is some cultural respect due to the leader of millions of Catholics and a tradition dating back thousands of years.

The Pope offers a non-US centric critique of American capitalist liberalism. Not everyone (including the Founding Fathers) believed in unlimited Free Speech under the first amendment. Many feel entitled to belittle other's beliefs without consequence. That's not realistic.

If you don't respect Catholic religion or the Pope, at least Pope Francis is more human and less insulated than Pope Benedict (aka Pope Palpatine). The Catholic Church has taken a huge swing in direction that few expected a few years ago. That has to be worth something.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Zarathud » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:58 pm

The Pope isn't excusing the attacks, but rather pointing out the world should not be surprised. If you inflame your enemies, you are not wholly innocent when you get punched in the nose. The person throwing the punch is still violent and liable for battery, despite the verbal assault of the person hit.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:06 pm

When the man plans for weeks to come to my place of business to punch me in the nose, I should certainly be held as innocent. Again, fighting words are substantially different from a satirist being "not wholly innocent" of their own premeditated murder.

Words should be met with words. Those who use violence as a response to speech should not be tolerated in any modern society, nor should their victims be held to be culpable for their own deaths, even partially.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by RuperT » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:55 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:He's using a fighting words doctrine, which in the US requires immediacy in the threat, to excuse calculated murders. So much for personal responsibility.
It's a fine line between excusing and forgiving, I guess.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Rip » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:18 pm

An even finer line between forgiving and enabling.

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:39 pm

So the Pope got one wrong. shrug. He has less impact on the topic of terrorism than, say, an HIV epidemic in Africa in which he forbids catholics from using condoms, which is what predecessors did.

He's got some important ones that he has direct control over, right. I'll cut him some slack if his opinion on free speech, over which he has no control, is wrong headed.

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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:16 pm

Moliere wrote:The concept of the pope is as outdated as royalty. Get over yourself and stop acting like you have a direct line to a god. You're a joke and a hypocrite. Free speech trumps your hurt feelings.
Eh? Last I checked the Catholic Church has been around a LOT longer than the concept of Free Speech (and probably has more influence in more of the world than Free Speech is allowed) and the concept of the Pope as the titular head of a hierarchical church structure isn't outdated as of yet. Heck, if I could live long enough to collect, I'd wager that the Pope and Catholicism will be around longer than Free Speech (NSA/Big Brother society is far more likely to arrive before the Catholic Church is gone).

Even Islam has been around longer than Free Speech.
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by RuperT » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:20 pm

Rip wrote:An even finer line between forgiving and enabling.
I feel like we don't need the Pope to forbid us from murder. Has anyone ever considered that? :wink:

I don't see how this is a markedly different free speech sentiment than "Don't be a jerk."
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Re: Pope Francis, changing Christianity?

Post by Rip » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:31 pm

RuperT wrote:
Rip wrote:An even finer line between forgiving and enabling.
I feel like we don't need the Pope to forbid us from murder. Has anyone ever considered that? :wink:

I don't see how this is a markedly different free speech sentiment than "Don't be a jerk."
It isn't and don't be a jerk is a crock.

I can be a jerk if I damn well please, and the freedom to be a jerk will still be around and spreading around the universe when it has long been forgotten what Catholic and Big Brother even mean.

:tjg:
There is no refuge from memory and remorse in this world. The spirits of our foolish deeds haunt us, with or without repentance.
--

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