Shutdown

[Chrisoc13]

I mean...pelosi played political games. Political games were played back to her. Not sure what people were expecting our why people are trying to say what trump did was wrong while what pelosi did is ok. I'm not a trump fan at all but... Pelosi shouldn't have dished it out with her state of the union play if she couldn't take it.

All of that doesn't change that this whole shutdown is stupid, and certainly doesn't mean I'm for the wall. But I must admit I laughed when I saw what trump did. Well played. Well played. Your turn pelosi.

That is a terrible take.

What was the impact of Pelosi's note? Nothing. What was the result of Trumps? A major security violation and cancellation of a meeting with our allies that is already a bit strained.

Totally. Pelosi's move was a bit of grandstanding but Trump can do it in the Oval if he wanted. He can send a letter. Trump's move was to try to put his thumb on the leader of the House. It is *authoritarianism*. No one should be celebrating it.

Who's celebrating it? I can chuckle about it without cerebrating it.

Talk about drama in here. I'm sure our key allies are truly hurt by pelosi not being there. Give me a break. Nobody left in this forum that can possibly be middle of the road. Thanks for the reminder.

[noxiousdog]

I mean...pelosi played political games. Political games were played back to her. Not sure what people were expecting or why people are trying to say what trump did was wrong while what pelosi did is ok. I'm not a trump fan at all but... Pelosi shouldn't have dished it out with her state of the union play if she couldn't take it.

All of that doesn't change that this whole shutdown is stupid, and certainly doesn't mean I'm for the wall. But I must admit I laughed when I saw what trump did. Well played. Well played. Your turn pelosi.

C'mon, man.

I could say the exact same thing. I rolled my eyes reading all of you acting like this was done horrendous move. You think pelosi wasn't just playing games? She was. With trump. It doesn't justify what he did but let's not act like she was innocent in all this. I truly hate that trump is our president, but I can see without blinders that pelosi played her hand and got outplayed.

Apparently, you can't.

[Chrisoc13]

I mean...pelosi played political games. Political games were played back to her. Not sure what people were expecting or why people are trying to say what trump did was wrong while what pelosi did is ok. I'm not a trump fan at all but... Pelosi shouldn't have dished it out with her state of the union play if she couldn't take it.

All of that doesn't change that this whole shutdown is stupid, and certainly doesn't mean I'm for the wall. But I must admit I laughed when I saw what trump did. Well played. Well played. Your turn pelosi.

C'mon, man.

I could say the exact same thing. I rolled my eyes reading all of you acting like this was done horrendous move. You think pelosi wasn't just playing games? She was. With trump. It doesn't justify what he did but let's not act like she was innocent in all this. I truly hate that trump is our president, but I can see without blinders that pelosi played her hand and got outplayed.

Apparently, you can't.

Haha ok. Blinded by what exactly?

[pr0ner]

I mean...pelosi played political games. Political games were played back to her. Not sure what people were expecting or why people are trying to say what trump did was wrong while what pelosi did is ok. I'm not a trump fan at all but... Pelosi shouldn't have dished it out with her state of the union play if she couldn't take it.

All of that doesn't change that this whole shutdown is stupid, and certainly doesn't mean I'm for the wall. But I must admit I laughed when I saw what trump did. Well played. Well played. Your turn pelosi.

C'mon, man.

I could say the exact same thing. I rolled my eyes reading all of you acting like this was done horrendous move. You think pelosi wasn't just playing games? She was. With trump. It doesn't justify what he did but let's not act like she was innocent in all this. I truly hate that trump is our president, but I can see without blinders that pelosi played her hand and got outplayed.

There's a big difference between Pelosi's posturing and Trump's. It's all on you if you can't see that.

[noxiousdog]

Talk about drama in here. I'm sure our key allies are truly hurt by pelosi not being there. Give me a break.

Whether or not the allies are hurt is irrelevant. Trump canceled the Speaker of the House's meetings by violating security protocols.

Nobody left in this forum that can possibly be middle of the road. Thanks for the reminder.

Cute. That's me. In the pocket of the libs. I'm sure most of the forum will get a kick out of that.

[Chrisoc13]

I mean...pelosi played political games. Political games were played back to her. Not sure what people were expecting or why people are trying to say what trump did was wrong while what pelosi did is ok. I'm not a trump fan at all but... Pelosi shouldn't have dished it out with her state of the union play if she couldn't take it.

All of that doesn't change that this whole shutdown is stupid, and certainly doesn't mean I'm for the wall. But I must admit I laughed when I saw what trump did. Well played. Well played. Your turn pelosi.

C'mon, man.

I could say the exact same thing. I rolled my eyes reading all of you acting like this was done horrendous move. You think pelosi wasn't just playing games? She was. With trump. It doesn't justify what he did but let's not act like she was innocent in all this. I truly hate that trump is our president, but I can see without blinders that pelosi played her hand and got outplayed.

There's a big difference between Pelosi's posturing and Trump's. It's all on you if you can't see that.

Only in this forum are tears being shed for pelosi on this. But of course in our forum it's a huge sign of a crumblimg democracy.

[malchior]

I mean...pelosi played political games. Political games were played back to her. Not sure what people were expecting or why people are trying to say what trump did was wrong while what pelosi did is ok. I'm not a trump fan at all but... Pelosi shouldn't have dished it out with her state of the union play if she couldn't take it.

All of that doesn't change that this whole shutdown is stupid, and certainly doesn't mean I'm for the wall. But I must admit I laughed when I saw what trump did. Well played. Well played. Your turn pelosi.

C'mon, man.

I could say the exact same thing. I rolled my eyes reading all of you acting like this was done horrendous move. You think pelosi wasn't just playing games? She was. With trump. It doesn't justify what he did but let's not act like she was innocent in all this. I truly hate that trump is our president, but I can see without blinders that pelosi played her hand and got outplayed.

How was she outplayed? It was another norm smash. It is beyond politics into authoritarianism. Thinking like this is why the country is swirling down the drain into the gutter.

[pr0ner]

I mean...pelosi played political games. Political games were played back to her. Not sure what people were expecting or why people are trying to say what trump did was wrong while what pelosi did is ok. I'm not a trump fan at all but... Pelosi shouldn't have dished it out with her state of the union play if she couldn't take it.

All of that doesn't change that this whole shutdown is stupid, and certainly doesn't mean I'm for the wall. But I must admit I laughed when I saw what trump did. Well played. Well played. Your turn pelosi.

C'mon, man.

I could say the exact same thing. I rolled my eyes reading all of you acting like this was done horrendous move. You think pelosi wasn't just playing games? She was. With trump. It doesn't justify what he did but let's not act like she was innocent in all this. I truly hate that trump is our president, but I can see without blinders that pelosi played her hand and got outplayed.

There's a big difference between Pelosi's posturing and Trump's. It's all on you if you can't see that.

Only in this forum are tears being shed for pelosi on this. But of course in our forum it's a huge sign of a crumblimg democracy.

I'm not shedding tears for Pelosi. Personally I don't like her (because, you know, I'm one of those middle of the road types that allegedly don't exist here). But Pelosi made a suggestion with her letter. Trump went and shit on Pelosi's trip (while Lindsay Graham is off in Turkey, no less) and put people in harm's way. That you can't see the difference remains on you.

[Chrisoc13]

Let's just say... I disagree. She got outplayed plain and simple. Dems can't handle it. Sure. Doesn't make the Republicans remotely correct in what they are doing, but... This isn't some constitutional crisis.

I truly don't have time for an OO 25 on 1 discussion anymore in my life so I shouldn't have said anything because now there will be pages and pages of responses to one post. Forget I said anything and live in your bliss of agreement. I don't have time for constant responses every second. I'm out.

[Zaxxon]

Chris, your both-sides-ism appears to be clouding your judgment. These actions are not even remotely equivalent.

[Smoove_B]

No, no. Suggesting that the President should find an alternative for the SotUA is completely on the same page as compromising the security of the Speaker of the House, not once but twice (plans for military travel, plans for commercial flight option). Totally equivalent. Why can't you guys see that?

[Skinypupy]

You're right, that single action in a vacuum by itself does not constitute a constitutional crisis.

Considered in a whole with the other bajillion bits of Trump administration fuckery going on? Different story.

[Zarathud]

Trump could have retaliated by cancelling the plane, but doing it at least minute while leaking the operational info was beyond the line.

Pelosi and Shumer should be beating the drum that they're waiting for a counter offer from Trump, putting the burden on him as the alleged "dealmaker" and daring McConnell to get a backbone to let a vote happen:
"All we need is for McConnell to allow a Senate vote and the House bill will pass."
"Trump says he's a dealmaker, but we haven't seen any real proposal of the wall or an alternative."

[pr0ner]

Let's just say... I disagree. She got outplayed plain and simple. Dems can't handle it. Sure. Doesn't make the Republicans remotely correct in what they are doing, but... This isn't some constitutional crisis.

I truly don't have time for an OO 25 on 1 discussion anymore in my life so I shouldn't have said anything because now there will be pages and pages of responses to one post. Forget I said anything and live in your bliss of agreement. I don't have time for constant responses every second. I'm out.

There's a lot of woe is me here, which is especially rich when you accuse the entire forum of having no people who are middle of the road. While the forum is fairly unified against Trump (because he's a special brand of awful), there are plenty of people here still left who would vote for a reasonable Republican candidate over a Democratic one. I should know; I'm one of them.

[malchior]

No, no. Suggesting that the President should find an alternative for the SotUA is completely on the same page as compromising the security of the Speaker of the House, not once but twice (plans for military travel, plans for commercial flight option). Totally equivalent. Why can't you guys see that?

Good point. And seriously you just have to laugh at this master play. He has the entire US military at his disposal and he said 'get off my plane!' HI-LAR-I-OUS. You know because the President is sort of back of the classroom funny right. Yelling out stuff like 'Negative Nancy' and shit. What a riot.

[noxiousdog]

Let's just say... I disagree. She got outplayed plain and simple. Dems can't handle it. Sure. Doesn't make the Republicans remotely correct in what they are doing, but... This isn't some constitutional crisis.

I truly don't have time for an OO 25 on 1 discussion anymore in my life so I shouldn't have said anything because now there will be pages and pages of responses to one post. Forget I said anything and live in your bliss of agreement. I don't have time for constant responses every second. I'm out.

The only one that has suggested it's a constitutional crisis is you. The rest of us (and the fact that you're breaking into Dems/Reps is telling) think it's just another example of why Trump is the worst president ever.

The constitutional crisis is that the president is compromised and McConnell refuses to vote to open government.

[GreenGoo]

Edit:. Too slow.

I admire Chris for having the balls to take on the entire forum (edit: This is sincere admiration. It takes courage). That he is so wrong is why it takes balls. It takes a lot of balls to be a flat earther too.

I fully expect daggers and twisting from both sides during this impasse. I did not expect either side violating security protocols to put each other's lives at risk. That's what foreign regimes do to their enemies, not western democracies.

It's all good though. Totally normal for American presidents to put Americans at risk for political gain domestically. It's practically expected at this point.

Way to p0wn Pelosi, Mr. President. Well done.

[Daveman]

Maybe I'm being too hopeful, but might that initial line about "everything that we're asking for" that includes mention of technologies and such be a little bit of a crack in the ice? Or at least a way for Trump to pivot and be OK with money for non-wall security measures?

[Alefroth]

You're right, that single action in a vacuum by itself does not constitute a constitutional crisis.

In any other administration it certainly might.

[Alefroth]

I mean...pelosi played political games. Political games were played back to her. Not sure what people were expecting or why people are trying to say what trump did was wrong while what pelosi did is ok. I'm not a trump fan at all but... Pelosi shouldn't have dished it out with her state of the union play if she couldn't take it.

All of that doesn't change that this whole shutdown is stupid, and certainly doesn't mean I'm for the wall. But I must admit I laughed when I saw what trump did. Well played. Well played. Your turn pelosi.

C'mon, man.

I could say the exact same thing. I rolled my eyes reading all of you acting like this was done horrendous move. You think pelosi wasn't just playing games? She was. With trump. It doesn't justify what he did but let's not act like she was innocent in all this. I truly hate that trump is our president, but I can see without blinders that pelosi played her hand and got outplayed.

How do you know she got outplayed? Her whole intent may have been to bait him into a stupid abuse of power.

You may not be a fan of Trump, but if you think he can outplay Pelosi, you give him a lot more credit than most.

[Smoove_B]

The constitutional crisis is that the president is compromised and McConnell refuses to vote to open government.

This needs to hammered every day, multiple times and multiple ways.

[LordMortis]

The constitutional crisis is that the president is compromised and McConnell refuses to vote to open government.

This needs to hammered every day, multiple times and multiple ways.

Agreed with examples. The US should never forget.

"One of my proudest moments was when I told Obama, 'You will not fill this Supreme Court vacancy,'"

"Apparently there's yet a new standard now, which is not to confirm a Supreme Court nominee at all. I think that's something the American people simply will not tolerate."

""If we don't get what we want, one way or the other, whether it's through you, through military, through anything you want to call, I will shut down the government. I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down.""


Every day. There is no both sides. There is no game. Fed said it right




You (I?) want to move on but how do you when you also can't move on because you absolutely must "fool me twice and I won't get fooled again."

[LawBeefaroni]

Every day. There is no both sides. There is no game. Fed said it right




You (I?) want to move on but how do you when you also can't move on because you absolutely must "fool me twice and I won't get fooled again."

Maybe one day McConnell Senate will have the same ring as Vichy France.

[El Guapo]

Edit:. Too slow.

I admire Chris for having the balls to take on the entire forum (edit: This is sincere admiration. It takes courage). That he is so wrong is why it takes balls. It takes a lot of balls to be a flat earther too.

I fully expect daggers and twisting from both sides during this impasse. I did not expect either side violating security protocols to put each other's lives at risk. That's what foreign regimes do to their enemies, not western democracies.

It's all good though. Totally normal for American presidents to put Americans at risk for political gain domestically. It's practically expected at this point.

Way to p0wn Pelosi, Mr. President. Well done.

FWIW I think Pelosi was playing politics with the SOTU, and Trump is playing politics with his reprisal, so they are comparable on that level. Where there's a real difference is in terms of the impact of their moves. The consequences of Pelosi's move is that Trump will have to change the venue or the time of his SOTU. The consequences of Trump's are that real foreign policy trips are being canceled. The latter is all the more an issue because the trip included conferring with NATO allies, and Trump is known to dislike NATO, possibly tying into his Russia connections.

Obviously the consequences of the latter are much more significant.

[Holman]

FWIW I think Pelosi was playing politics with the SOTU, and Trump is playing politics with his reprisal, so they are comparable on that level. Where there's a real difference is in terms of the impact of their moves. The consequences of Pelosi's move is that Trump will have to change the venue or the time of his SOTU. The consequences of Trump's are that real foreign policy trips are being canceled. The latter is all the more an issue because the trip included conferring with NATO allies, and Trump is known to dislike NATO, possibly tying into his Russia connections.

Obviously the consequences of the latter are much more significant.

The disparity in threats is important too.

Pelosi: "I'm playing a card that will deny you a formal audience."

Trump: "I'm playing a card that will get you, other congresspeople, your staffs, and teams securing you killed."

[GreenGoo]

FWIW I think Pelosi was playing politics with the SOTU, and Trump is playing politics with his reprisal, so they are comparable on that level. Where there's a real difference is in terms of the impact of their moves. The consequences of Pelosi's move is that Trump will have to change the venue or the time of his SOTU. The consequences of Trump's are that real foreign policy trips are being canceled. The latter is all the more an issue because the trip included conferring with NATO allies, and Trump is known to dislike NATO, possibly tying into his Russia connections.

Obviously the consequences of the latter are much more significant.

My intent was to communicate similar thoughts on the matter. Pelosi was absolutely playing politics, and so is drumpf.

I'm not a big fan of outing covert CIA agents either for political reasons either.

[pr0ner]

So is this when he finally declares a national emergency?

[Skinypupy]

Some of those replies are great.

“The National Emergency that didn’t exist for two years, until the very moment Democrats took control of the house.”

“Such an emergency that we’re going to make an announcement on a Saturday afternoon.”

I have to think that he’s either going to declare the emergency, or announce that he’s going to do a short-term reopening to “negotiate”.

I can’t imagine that doing another “Democrats are bad” rant is going to play particularly well to the millions who aren’t getting paychecks right now

[GreenGoo]

It's totally normal to feel dread when the president announces he's going to make an announcement during times of peace and prosperity.

Completely normal, America.

[malchior]

The announcement sounds like a "deal" negotiated between Pence, Kushner, and McConnell. The only way this works is if it goes something like this, 'Hey guys we've got an amazing idea. We need to drop the wall for now. That sound ok?'

[LordMortis]

You can't not listen and you can't not accept a positive resolution but the idea that Pence, McConnell, Kushner, and Trump have any deal I want to be a part of, well, I'm not holding my breath.

[Zarathud]

Prediction -- Trump hasn't floated this idea past any Democrats.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, I'm guessing his strategy is to reveal "the deal" to the American people via his press conference and then immediately blame the Democrats for refusing to take it.

[pr0ner]

I'm still predicting I get furloughed in 2 weeks, as amazing as that sounds.

[El Guapo]

Yeah, I'm guessing his strategy is to reveal "the deal" to the American people via his press conference and then immediately blame the Democrats for refusing to take it.

That's the most likely explanation. "Once I declare a deal publicly, Democrats will have to cave then, right?"

That said, there is an outside chance that this is a way to basically cave while trying to look like they're not losing. E.g., the deal is basically a straight funding deal with some token border security funding - ideally something that Democrats have agreed to previously - invite them to accept your bold new proposal, and when they probably do, declare victory.

[El Guapo]

I suppose the other plausible thing is that Trump has decided to go the national emergency route, but that he's going to dangle some extreme deal before then (e.g., give me 99.99% of what I want), so that he can declare an emergency more in sorrow than in anger, and try to make the whole thing more politically palatable.

[GreenGoo]

I'm still predicting I get furloughed in 2 weeks, as amazing as that sounds.

Sorry to hear that Pr0ner. A lot can happen in those 2 weeks of course, and everything can turn on a dime. Fingers crossed.

[GreenGoo]

The announcement sounds like a "deal" negotiated between Pence, Kushner, and McConnell. The only way this works is if it goes something like this, 'Hey guys we've got an amazing idea. We need to drop the wall for now. That sound ok?'

See, this is why he's a master deal maker. Typically, you negotiate with the other side. Drumpf went a whole different way, and negotiated with everyone who already agrees with him but have no input on whether the deal will be accepted by the side that actually matters.

Genius.

[GreenGoo]

Prediction -- Trump hasn't floated this idea past any Democrats.

Absolutely 100% for sure. He's negotiating with public opinion, not Dems. He's amazingly terrible at it, which is kind of shocking, as that is what got him elected in the first place.

what Smoove said.

Yeah, I'm guessing his strategy is to reveal "the deal" to the American people via his press conference and then immediately blame the Democrats for refusing to take it.

[Kraken]

Yeah, I'm guessing his strategy is to reveal "the deal" to the American people via his press conference and then immediately blame the Democrats for refusing to take it.

That's the most likely explanation. "Once I declare a deal publicly, Democrats will have to cave then, right?"

That said, there is an outside chance that this is a way to basically cave while trying to look like they're not losing. E.g., the deal is basically a straight funding deal with some token border security funding - ideally something that Democrats have agreed to previously - invite them to accept your bold new proposal, and when they probably do, declare victory.

That's the best-case scenario. I don't care if Trump saves face with his minions, as long as the Dems don't actually cave. I trust Pelosi not to do that ("I trust Pelosi" being words I didn't think I'd ever type).