Shutdown

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Fireball
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Fireball »

malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:I don't even know if you can blame Boehner much. Let's say he puts the clean CR up for a vote -- he will probably get coup-ed out and the next guy will have the same problems.
He might be dethroned by his conservative base, but only after the CR had passed. So don't blame Boehner, if you think that him holding onto the Speaker's gavel is worth shutting down the government.
The speaker's voted upon by the whole house, isn't it? If Boehner passed a clean CR and the Tea Party tried to replace him with some nutjob like Bachmann, could some democrats vote for Boehner as speaker to avoid that?
Yes.
But the majority rules and it is likely that whoever emerges will get the Speakership based on Republican votes. The Democrats are largely likely to be irrelevant entirely.
The majority of votes cast rules. The Speaker is elected by a roll call vote. If Boehner could hold onto 75 to 100 Republicans, it wouldn't be difficult to muster the Democrats needed to get to 218. The price would be very high, though. The resulting coalition government would be... interesting.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
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El Guapo
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Re: Shutdown

Post by El Guapo »

Fireball1244 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:I don't even know if you can blame Boehner much. Let's say he puts the clean CR up for a vote -- he will probably get coup-ed out and the next guy will have the same problems.
He might be dethroned by his conservative base, but only after the CR had passed. So don't blame Boehner, if you think that him holding onto the Speaker's gavel is worth shutting down the government.
The speaker's voted upon by the whole house, isn't it? If Boehner passed a clean CR and the Tea Party tried to replace him with some nutjob like Bachmann, could some democrats vote for Boehner as speaker to avoid that?
Yes.
So.... let's do that then.

This is where I lose any patience with Boehner. Passing a clean CR and a clean debt ceiling increase would, I think it is fair to say, put his speakership at risk. By contrast, failing to do these things puts the U.S. and global economies at risk.
Black Lives Matter.
malchior
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Re: Shutdown

Post by malchior »

Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:I don't even know if you can blame Boehner much. Let's say he puts the clean CR up for a vote -- he will probably get coup-ed out and the next guy will have the same problems.
He might be dethroned by his conservative base, but only after the CR had passed. So don't blame Boehner, if you think that him holding onto the Speaker's gavel is worth shutting down the government.
The speaker's voted upon by the whole house, isn't it? If Boehner passed a clean CR and the Tea Party tried to replace him with some nutjob like Bachmann, could some democrats vote for Boehner as speaker to avoid that?
Yes.
But the majority rules and it is likely that whoever emerges will get the Speakership based on Republican votes. The Democrats are largely likely to be irrelevant entirely.
The majority of votes cast rules. The Speaker is elected by a roll call vote. If Boehner could hold onto 75 to 100 Republicans, it wouldn't be difficult to muster the Democrats needed to get to 218. The price would be very high, though. The resulting coalition government would be... interesting.
Also it will be entirely populated with lollipop trees.
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El Guapo
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Re: Shutdown

Post by El Guapo »

Abraham Lincoln wrote: Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events. This, plainly stated, is your language…

In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!"

To be sure, what the robber demanded of me - my money - was my own; and I had a clear right to keep it; but it was no more my own than my vote is my own; and the threat of death to me, to extort my money, and the threat of destruction to the Union, to extort my vote, can scarcely be distinguished in principle….

Let us be diverted by none of those sophistical contrivances wherewith we are so industriously plied and belabored - contrivances such as groping for some middle ground between the right and the wrong
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lin ... cooper.htm" target="_blank
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Fireball
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Fireball »

malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:I don't even know if you can blame Boehner much. Let's say he puts the clean CR up for a vote -- he will probably get coup-ed out and the next guy will have the same problems.
He might be dethroned by his conservative base, but only after the CR had passed. So don't blame Boehner, if you think that him holding onto the Speaker's gavel is worth shutting down the government.
The speaker's voted upon by the whole house, isn't it? If Boehner passed a clean CR and the Tea Party tried to replace him with some nutjob like Bachmann, could some democrats vote for Boehner as speaker to avoid that?
Yes.
But the majority rules and it is likely that whoever emerges will get the Speakership based on Republican votes. The Democrats are largely likely to be irrelevant entirely.
The majority of votes cast rules. The Speaker is elected by a roll call vote. If Boehner could hold onto 75 to 100 Republicans, it wouldn't be difficult to muster the Democrats needed to get to 218. The price would be very high, though. The resulting coalition government would be... interesting.
Also it will be entirely populated with lollipop trees.
I'm not saying it's likely.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
malchior
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Re: Shutdown

Post by malchior »

Fireball1244 wrote:I'm not saying it's likely.
Fair enough; nowadays you hear so much crazy talk and it all sounds sensible but does not reflect what happens in reality. :)
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El Guapo
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Re: Shutdown

Post by El Guapo »

Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
malchior wrote:I don't even know if you can blame Boehner much. Let's say he puts the clean CR up for a vote -- he will probably get coup-ed out and the next guy will have the same problems.
He might be dethroned by his conservative base, but only after the CR had passed. So don't blame Boehner, if you think that him holding onto the Speaker's gavel is worth shutting down the government.
The speaker's voted upon by the whole house, isn't it? If Boehner passed a clean CR and the Tea Party tried to replace him with some nutjob like Bachmann, could some democrats vote for Boehner as speaker to avoid that?
Yes.
But the majority rules and it is likely that whoever emerges will get the Speakership based on Republican votes. The Democrats are largely likely to be irrelevant entirely.
The majority of votes cast rules. The Speaker is elected by a roll call vote. If Boehner could hold onto 75 to 100 Republicans, it wouldn't be difficult to muster the Democrats needed to get to 218. The price would be very high, though. The resulting coalition government would be... interesting.
Also it will be entirely populated with lollipop trees.
I'm not saying it's likely.
I would expect that the tea party caucus would fracture at least somewhat in terms of who they would choose as an alternative, however, which would probably reduce the number of democratic votes required.

It's also possible that a non-Boehner non-mental patient would emerge from the scrap, which would be a fine resolution for the U.S. economy, if not for Mr. Boehner.
Black Lives Matter.
malchior
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Re: Shutdown

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote:I would expect that the tea party caucus would fracture at least somewhat in terms of who they would choose as an alternative, however, which would probably reduce the number of democratic votes required.

It's also possible that a non-Boehner non-mental patient would emerge from the scrap, which would be a fine resolution for the U.S. economy, if not for Mr. Boehner.
The problem is that the Republicans have shown no willingness to let that happen. Their base is holding the rest of them hostage. If Boehner throws off the yolk and is replaced - it will be unanimous. I suspect that person will be slightly to the right of Boehner. They may have lost discipline over the message but they are still unified when it comes to the big tent stuff.
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Fireball
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Fireball »

El Guapo wrote:I would expect that the tea party caucus would fracture at least somewhat in terms of who they would choose as an alternative, however, which would probably reduce the number of democratic votes required.
Alas, it's 218 or bust. Must be a majority of House members seated.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
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Rip
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Rip »

El Guapo wrote:
malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:No, this crisis falls squarely on the shoulders of the 30 to 60 crazy Tea Party Republicans. But Boehner, as their agent, shares the blame.
I don't think we disagree on much on what the cause is. I totally agree and Boehner has to share some of that blame -- even if for not stopping the progression of events to a degree -- but I don't get why anyone expects Boehner to go out and commit political suicide pointlessly.
Avoiding economic hari-kiri for the country seems decidedly not pointless.
Dramatize much? Have you went out and picked up Apocolypse supplies yet?
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hepcat
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Re: Shutdown

Post by hepcat »

Rip wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:No, this crisis falls squarely on the shoulders of the 30 to 60 crazy Tea Party Republicans. But Boehner, as their agent, shares the blame.
I don't think we disagree on much on what the cause is. I totally agree and Boehner has to share some of that blame -- even if for not stopping the progression of events to a degree -- but I don't get why anyone expects Boehner to go out and commit political suicide pointlessly.
Avoiding economic hari-kiri for the country seems decidedly not pointless.
Dramatize much? Have you went out and picked up Apocolypse supplies yet?
Rip wrote:
paulbaxter wrote:Theoretically this death star is now fully operational.

Who, so far, has been able to:
create an account?
log into that account?
apply for insurance?

I'm up to 1 out of 3 right now.

Very few, it is a disaster. Should be interesting to see how it translates in support/opposition in general. I fear many will as many hear have already said "think it will get better and make things better". I have heard it said that Republicans fear it working well, so I guess that would imply that Democrats fear it working exactly like it is(isn't) working.
Covfefe!
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El Guapo
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Re: Shutdown

Post by El Guapo »

Rip wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
malchior wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:No, this crisis falls squarely on the shoulders of the 30 to 60 crazy Tea Party Republicans. But Boehner, as their agent, shares the blame.
I don't think we disagree on much on what the cause is. I totally agree and Boehner has to share some of that blame -- even if for not stopping the progression of events to a degree -- but I don't get why anyone expects Boehner to go out and commit political suicide pointlessly.
Avoiding economic hari-kiri for the country seems decidedly not pointless.
Dramatize much? Have you went out and picked up Apocolypse supplies yet?
Apocalypse.

And with the hari-kiri remark I'm thinking more about the debt ceiling than the shutdown, but it's also applicable to the shutdown if it goes on long enough.
Black Lives Matter.
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Rip
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Rip »

Sorry Hep but your attempt to compare/connect the two statements is a total FAIL!

As many inflammatory things as I post, I expect you to do better.
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Daehawk
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Daehawk »

Kinda have gotten lost in this thread so it may be posted...but it's new to me and CNN :)

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/02/opinion/g ... ?hpt=hp_t1" target="_blank


We want our money back!
Shutdown shows need for refunds

Commentary: If government isn't providing services, Bob Greene asks, shouldn't it give taxpayers a refund?
--------------------------------------------
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LordMortis
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Re: Shutdown

Post by LordMortis »

Daehawk wrote:Commentary: If government isn't providing services, Bob Greene asks, shouldn't it give taxpayers a refund?
I would actually concur if 1) The cost weren't small by comparison to the daily expenditure and 2) we didn't have 16,000,000,000,000 in debt to worry about and 3) if the last shutdown is an indicator, furloughed employees will still get supplemented through unemployment and eventually get their entire salary for shut down days. (Though not all historical shut downs have resulted in furloughed workers being paid their entire salaries)
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hepcat
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Re: Shutdown

Post by hepcat »

Rip wrote:Sorry Hep but your attempt to compare/connect the two statements is a total FAIL!
exclamation points and all caps. enough with the drama.
Covfefe!
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geezer
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Re: Shutdown

Post by geezer »

El Guapo wrote:
Abraham Lincoln wrote: Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events. This, plainly stated, is your language…

In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!"

To be sure, what the robber demanded of me - my money - was my own; and I had a clear right to keep it; but it was no more my own than my vote is my own; and the threat of death to me, to extort my money, and the threat of destruction to the Union, to extort my vote, can scarcely be distinguished in principle….

Let us be diverted by none of those sophistical contrivances wherewith we are so industriously plied and belabored - contrivances such as groping for some middle ground between the right and the wrong
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lin ... cooper.htm" target="_blank
"That is cool."

?????
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Captain Caveman
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Captain Caveman »

geezer wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Abraham Lincoln wrote: Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events. This, plainly stated, is your language…

In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!"

To be sure, what the robber demanded of me - my money - was my own; and I had a clear right to keep it; but it was no more my own than my vote is my own; and the threat of death to me, to extort my money, and the threat of destruction to the Union, to extort my vote, can scarcely be distinguished in principle….

Let us be diverted by none of those sophistical contrivances wherewith we are so industriously plied and belabored - contrivances such as groping for some middle ground between the right and the wrong
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lin ... cooper.htm" target="_blank
"That is cool."

?????
Seems like something a student inserts into a term paper to test whether the teacher actually read it.
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AWS260
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Re: Shutdown

Post by AWS260 »

geezer wrote:"That is cool."

?????
Presumably meant something like "cold-hearted" or "cold-blooded" back in the day.
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silverjon
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Re: Shutdown

Post by silverjon »

You are threatening to destroy the nation unless you get your way, you cold and uncaring individual.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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Re: Shutdown

Post by wonderpug »

Image
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El Guapo
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Re: Shutdown

Post by El Guapo »

AWS260 wrote:
geezer wrote:"That is cool."

?????
Presumably meant something like "cold-hearted" or "cold-blooded" back in the day.
I chuckled about the phrasing, but yeah I think that's ultimately what Lincoln meant.
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coopasonic
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Re: Shutdown

Post by coopasonic »

Where the hell is Isgrimnur?!

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas ... n_coo.html" target="_blank
-Coop
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El Guapo
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Re: Shutdown

Post by El Guapo »

coopasonic wrote:Where the hell is Isgrimnur?!

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas ... n_coo.html" target="_blank
Since he switched jobs he can only access OO via phone during the day, so he can't respond in .005 seconds like he used to. At least, until he finishes setting up his bot alt.
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Re: Shutdown

Post by RunningMn9 »

YellowKing wrote:I do lay some blame Boehner. But I'm not giving Obama a pass - a lot of the vitriol by the Republicans towards this President was earned by Obama early in his Presidency when the Democrats controlled both houses and ran amuck. Back when Obama was telling the Republicans to get in the back seat and Pelosi was strutting around like a prize rooster.
So...you're blaming Obama for this thing, because of other unrelated things from his first term?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Shutdown

Post by RunningMn9 »

pr0ner wrote:Are you actually implying that some shutdowns are better than others?
I'm explicitly saying that shutdowns over legitimate disagreements in spending are less assholeish that shutdowns over things that have nothing to do with the budget outside of the fact that one side tried to tie the issue to the budget to force a situation where a shutdown became possible for reasons unrelated to the actual budget.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Kraken
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Kraken »

YEAH! Bitch.

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Re: Shutdown

Post by Smoove_B »

Where the GOPs suicide caucus lives:
The members of the suicide caucus live in a different America from the one that most political commentators describe when talking about how the country is transforming. The average suicide-caucus district is seventy-five per cent white, while the average House district is sixty-three per cent white. Latinos make up an average of nine per cent of suicide-district residents, while the over-all average is seventeen per cent. The districts also have slightly lower levels of education (twenty-five per cent of the population in suicide districts have college degrees, while that number is twenty-nine per cent for the average district).

...

In short, these eighty members represent an America where the population is getting whiter, where there are few major cities, where Obama lost the last election in a landslide, and where the Republican Party is becoming more dominant and more popular. Meanwhile, in national politics, each of these trends is actually reversed.

In one sense, these eighty members are acting rationally. They seem to be pushing policies that are representative of what their constituents back home want. But even within the broader Republican Party, they represent a minority view, at least at the level of tactics (almost all Republicans want to defund Obamacare, even if they disagree about using the issue to threaten a government shutdown).
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Rip »

Barrycade business is good.

Fed using more manpower to shutdown what it can than leaving them open requires.

Trying to close off parking spots at Mount Vernon is particularly classy.
Although President Obama claims that he can’t avoid shutting down public sites and monuments, war memorials were in fact kept open during the 1995/1996 government shutdowns. The administration’s decision to barricade the Lincoln Memorial marks the first time in its history the memorial has been totally off limits to visitors during a shutdown.
It is not clear how much taxpayer money the Obama administration is paying to ensure that government sites and services remain shuttered to taxpayers. Popular Washington spots such as the World War II memorial are now guarded by more security personnel than they are during normal operations, while federal employees have been dispatched to put up barricades on capital bike paths and other public grounds that are not usually patrolled at all.
Daniel Burnett, a volunteer with Honor Flight, sent The Daily Caller FOAIed documents showing how much the Park Service is spending on the mounted police. To house, feed, and care for the horses it costs more than $41,000 year. Park police starting salary is $52,020, according to their website.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/02/monum ... -shutdown/

:shhh:
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Smoove_B »

Rip wrote:Barrycade business is good.
Look, just because you don't post a direct link to InfoWars, doesn't mean we don't see where you get your news from.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Rip
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Rip »

Actually I get news from numerous places.

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/10/ha ... ictionary/
“Dude, Obama barrycaded the park.”


Tuesday night Mandy wrote a post, WWII Vets storm Barry-cades, regarding the absurdity of the Obama administration erecting barricades in open spaces for no reason other than to hassle Veterans at the World War II Memorial.

The term Barry-cade, and its acceptable variant Barrycade, became hits on Twitter (here and here).

The term was picked up and spread by Twitchy, and also at Drudge.
http://americanglob.com/2013/10/02/barr ... ictionary/
Barrycade

1. A barrier (usually temporary) that exists for no reason. 2. A barrier erected for political reasons. “Dude, Obama barrycaded the park.”

“Hey, let’s put up some barrycades to keep those World War II veterans away from the open-air World War II Memorial in Washington, D.C., in order to try and score some cheap political points.”
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Smoove_B »

Rip wrote:Actually I get news from numerous places.
SMOOVE: But what ones specifically? I’m curious.

RIP: Um, all of them, any of them that have been in front of me over all these years.

:wink:
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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hepcat
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Re: Shutdown

Post by hepcat »

I'll wait for factcheck.org's article on "barry-cades" before I see this as anything but a desperate GOP fan base trying to divert attention away from their party's successful attempts to hold our country hostage over unrelated matters.
Last edited by hepcat on Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Covfefe!
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Genghis
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Genghis »

They mentioned this on NPR yesterday. The head of the parks department mentioned that he had to furlough 21,000 employees. That left him only with security to guard the parks and a skeleton crew. When the parks are open they have employees there 24/7, even at night. Part of the security is to stop vandalism, clean up trash, and incase of "terrorism".

http://www.npr.org/2013/10/03/228719015 ... -stay-open
Last edited by Genghis on Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rip
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Rip »

For just a start.

CNN
Foxnews
MSNBC
Yahoo
Drudgereport
Guardian
Independent
Jerusalem Post
Daily Caller
Breibart
Infowars
Wash Post
Wash Times
NY Post
NY Times
Slate
TMZ
Politico
National Review
Forbes


Off the top of my head. There are many more I check weekly, many of these I check daily or Bi-daily and hundreds that I check stories that I get hits on when searching for information on specific subjects.
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Zarathud »

So the Republicans have Barrycaded the budgetary process! You expected him to roll over and leave the keys in the car?
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Re: Shutdown

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Zarathud wrote:You expected him to roll over and leave the keys in the car?
I certainly hope so. Otherwise, what is happening/happened would just be political grandstanding/theater (and pretty harmful theater at that, economically), which is much more egregious IMO, but pretty much par for the Republican course of late.
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LordMortis
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Shutdown

Post by LordMortis »

Zarathud wrote:So the Republicans have Barrycaded the budgetary process! You expected him to roll over and leave the keys in the car?
Is this a continuation of the "We're driving, get in the backseat" metaphor?

Anyhow if the him you speak of holds the US hostage as a reaction to the Republicans are holding us hostage then I'm pretty certain we're fucked.

I don't really understand the furlough at all. Is Barry even making these decisions? What budget are they working under? Though from the sound of it, even disregarding the trickle that isn't happening right now, it sounds like this furlough will end up more expensive than not having one, like we will ultimately pay them for lost time, and then pay them more for the extra work it will take catch up, in addition to paying for the people who maintain the infrastructure while everything is shut down.
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Pyperkub
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Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: Shutdown

Post by Pyperkub »

I like it - it's clever (I'm a sucker for puns).

On the other hand the ww2 vets thing seems pretty clearly a setup (on both sides).

From a liability standpoint (as well as a wear and tear) I can understand the issues, but I also see barricading the parks as a bit of a stunt too.

But for the R's to pass a bill to fund parks in DC only? Screw them. It's not even a freaking state!
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Holman
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Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Shutdown

Post by Holman »

Rip wrote:Actually I get news from numerous places.
http://americanglob.com/2013/10/02/barr ... ictionary/
"Earning an entry in the Urban Dictionary" means some wingnut took the time to type one. The Urban Dictionary is an open wiki.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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