LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:04 pm
Who were under the impression young people were the great disseminators of non sourced material and propaganda? Maybe youth not sourcing information is a myth held by old people? Young people will stop everything to look shit up on their phone. That would have been my mom's dream when I was a child when her answer to everything was "look it up".
Yeah, I had the same reaction. Now I would think that the userbase of Facebook would skew slightly young, but other than that, who doesn't think that old people believe some crazy shit when they see it online?
Yeah, the figure of the crazy older relative buying conspiracy theories is older than social media. (Remember chain emails?)
[FDA] has suspended all routine inspections of domestic food-processing facilities, FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb said in an interview. He is working on a plan to bring inspectors back as early as next week to inspect facilities considered high-risk because they handle sensitive items such as seafood, soft cheese and vegetables, or have a history of problems.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:06 pm
by Smoove_B
STIGGIN it to your colon.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:30 pm
by LordMortis
I would think the FDA not working just because they aren't being funded is an prime example of the left scoring political points at the expense of the people and example of how if we just let the free market work we wouldn't have all of these problems with the governments refusal to do their jobs.
The nine House members representing border districts from California to Texas voted in favor of reopening the government without additional money for the wall.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:08 pm
by pr0ner
LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:30 pm
I would think the FDA not working just because they aren't being funded is an prime example of the left scoring political points at the expense of the people and example of how if we just let the free market work we wouldn't have all of these problems with the governments refusal to do their jobs.
Uhhhh, what?
FYI, for a lot of federal employees, they couldn't do their jobs if they're furloughed due to lack of appropriations even if they wanted to, because such activities are illegal.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:22 pm
by YellowKing
So the water cooler talk among my Trumpster Fire co-workers today was that "Democrats wanted the wall under Obama, and they're only against it because Trump is President."
As you might expect, this is blatantly false. The Democrats authorized fencing (not a wall) under the Obama administration. And they STILL support that same fencing - in fact, they openly support money for maintenance of the ~700 miles of fencing that exists. What they don't support is a stupid fucking concrete wall.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:31 pm
by Chaz
Hey, Trump is perfectly happy to have it be a 30' steel slat barricade. See? He's willing to compromise, and the dems are being unreasonable.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:32 pm
by $iljanus
pr0ner wrote:
LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:30 pm
I would think the FDA not working just because they aren't being funded is an prime example of the left scoring political points at the expense of the people and example of how if we just let the free market work we wouldn't have all of these problems with the governments refusal to do their jobs.
Uhhhh, what?
FYI, for a lot of federal employees, they couldn't do their jobs if they're furloughed due to lack of appropriations even if they wanted to, because such activities are illegal.
Yup. As a former Federal employee who has been through a couple of shutdowns, if you weren't on the "essential" list then you were barred from coming into work and there were penalties which could be imposed if you came in. Many people in the labs would rather have come in to work so it isn't a "left vs right" thing, at least in my neck of the woods which was the NIH.
As you might expect, this is blatantly false. The Democrats authorized fencing (not a wall) under the Obama administration. And they STILL support that same fencing - in fact, they openly support money for maintenance of the ~700 miles of fencing that exists. What they don't support is a stupid fucking concrete wall.
What about steel slats (aka moving goalposts)?
Btw, if the Dems wanted a wall under Obama, why was Trump's opposition rallying cry "Build that wall!!!"?
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:38 pm
by Jeff V
Trump said "it will pay for itself." So, it will be a toll wall? I still think most will go over/under/around or simply overstay their visa rather than pay the 100 pesos or whatever the toll might be.
LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:30 pm
I would think the FDA not working just because they aren't being funded is an prime example of the left scoring political points at the expense of the people and example of how if we just let the free market work we wouldn't have all of these problems with the governments refusal to do their jobs.
Uhhhh, what?
FYI, for a lot of federal employees, they couldn't do their jobs if they're furloughed due to lack of appropriations even if they wanted to, because such activities are illegal.
Yup. As a former Federal employee who has been through a couple of shutdowns, if you weren't on the "essential" list then you were barred from coming into work and there were penalties which could be imposed if you came in. Many people in the labs would rather have come in to work so it isn't a "left vs right" thing, at least in my neck of the woods which was the NIH.
Exactly this.
I had two clients call me today (one from Park Service and one FDA) from their personal cell phones to make sure that I had canceled their upcoming training programs so they wouldn’t get hit with a cancellation fee. Both of them were very explicit that “I’m NOT calling you in my government capacity, just as concerned citizen”. They can get in big trouble if it was discovered they were “working” in any capacity during a shutdown.
This whole debacle is proving how much better the GOP is at messaging though. I have also heard the same “Obama wanted a wall” talking point multiple times. When Trump stormed out today, the immediate talking point should have been, “We are in full support of border security, but $5B for a stupid-ass wall is a non-starter. We are happy to explore options which will intelligently bolster our nation’s security...blah, blah, blah.” Instead, all we heard was “Pelosi refuses to talk about border security”.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:59 pm
by Smoove_B
To be fair, Nancy Pelosi has been using Obama's time machine to block the border wall since 2016 - when the GOP took full control of Congress.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:36 pm
by Jeff V
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:59 pm
To be fair, Nancy Pelosi has been using Obama's time machine to block the border wall since 2016 - when the GOP took full control of Congress.
You think it's just the Dems? When Trump castigated them for going home for the holidays, the elephants could have stayed, had a quorum, and pass whatever the hell they wanted. As mentioned in Ann internet meme, "they could have approved $100 trillion for a plutonium wall and nothing could have stopped them." More then you think consider this a folly and are content to let it founder.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:42 pm
by LordMortis
I can't speak to the friends and talking points but Obama did vote to build " a secure fence" under Bush and then enforced Bush's Law, as rule of law meant something under is administration most of the time. Reading about it, the whole thing has been a debacle
Read the link to the history I left on the last page if you have time (it's very long by today's reading). (And much of it did occur under Obama's watch) This was for half the cost for 1/3rd of the land to build fences.
I don't object to eminent domain but... and you'd think people objectiing to federal over reach would raise an eyebrow...
Spoiler because even taking selected quotes is a lot.
In short, I can accept the Obama "wanted a wall" and "started a wall" and I can use that as evidence against Trump's wall.
Spoiler:
On Oct. 26, 2006, President Bush signed the Secure Fence Act. President Obama oversaw the fence’s construction. All told, Homeland Security built 654 miles of fence — just short of the 700 mile goal set by Congress — at a cost of $2.4 billion.
Now Trump has promised to finish the job with a much larger wall — nearly twice the height of the current fence, made of concrete, and occupying much of the remaining 1,300 miles of southern border unguarded by a physical barrier. His administration has declared its intent to take more land to build the wall in the central Rio Grande Valley, where much of the property remains in private hands.
All told, the agency built 50 miles of fence in disconnected strips 40 to 60 feet wide — and seized a total of 564 acres. A process that can take years for a single parcel had been compressed into months.
By using a so-called quick-take, a federal agency gained title to a person’s property on the same day it filed a declaration of taking in court. The bulldozers could roll as soon as a judge approved an order to possess the land. The landowner was almost powerless to stop the process.
With virtually no public notice, Homeland Security took advantage of the loophole. It waived the law’s requirements for negotiation and eliminated conflict-of-interest provisions. The agency also increased the appraisal threshold to $50,000 for property seized along the border.
In practice, the higher threshold meant that the agency did not have to formally appraise most of the property it wanted. Land is cheap in the Rio Grande Valley, and the government was appropriating only small strips for the fence. Of 197 tracts seized by Homeland Security, 90 percent were valued at less than $50,000.
In place of formal appraisals, Homeland Security directed the Army Corps to assign values to targeted land. Army Corps evaluators did not have to be certified appraisers. They did not have to abide by Yellow Book standards. They did not have to identify the owners, and they didn’t need precise legal descriptions, called metes and bounds, to spell out property lines.
In the spring of 2008, the Army Corps representatives fanned out across the Rio Grande Valley to conduct negotiations with holdout land owners.
They were met with confusion and anger, according to an Army Corps report of the negotiations. Landowners wanted to know where the fence would go, how it would affect their property. They asked for more time to consider the offers. The contractors told them they had just weeks to sign a deal or the federal government would sue them.
Homeland Security sent him a map that appeared to be taken from Google Earth, with a red rectangle drawn around the targeted tract. When he asked for more information, the Army Corps sent a letter: “The accelerated schedule that is necessary to meet the Congressional mandate will not permit the completion of the ground survey before acquisition,” it read.
Buried deep in the law, Congress had included a sentence that said the Uniform law “creates no rights or liabilities and shall not affect the validity of any property acquisitions by purchase or condemnation.”
In other words, there was a law. But there was no way to enforce it. In legal terms, it was “nonjusticiable” — beyond the reach of the federal court.
The Justice Department takings lawsuits resulted in splitting the community into three groups, not on the basis of the land they owned, but on their ability to retain an attorney.
So when the Justice Department filed its Declaration of Taking, Koppel hired one of Texas’ top law firms, Vinson & Elkins, renowned for its ferocious litigators, to fight back.
Over the next three years, the two sides faced off in court, even as Homeland Security built the fence. Koppel’s attorneys attacked the integrity of the government’s appraiser.
Justice attorneys argued that Koppel’s appraiser had not properly followed government standards. And Koppel, they said, was overvaluing the market for his development in one of the most economically depressed parts of Brownsville.
On one point, though, both sides agreed. The government’s initial evaluation had vastly underestimated the damage the fence would do to Koppel’s development. Koppel’s attorneys put the total price at more than $14.6 million. The government’s attorneys said it was $1.4 million.
When the two sides finally settled, Homeland Security paid Koppel $4.9 million. That was the highest payout for any property in the Rio Grande Valley, and it represented a 2,043 percent increase from the government’s initial estimate of fair market value.
In the end, even that might not have been enough. Koppel was never able to get the subdivision built. He died earlier this year at 88. His attorney did not return phone calls seeking comment.
It was Feb. 3, 2009, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Eric Paxton Warner had a confession to make.
For more than a year, Justice Department attorneys had been seizing property. And for more than a year, they had been paying the landowners for their losses. They had beaten the Dec. 31, 2008 deadline set by Congress. Contractors were digging wide trenches and pouring concrete for the fence.
But it was only now, in the middle of litigating a case against the Borzynski brothers, two farmers known as the Cabbage Kings of America, that the government realized that it had erred in nearly every single case, Warner told the court.
“I have made a mess of the Borzynski case,” Warner told the court.
The government had not finished title work on many of the properties until Christmas. In the rush, the attorneys had not realized that they had failed to compensate the owners for water rights to their land.
It was an almost unbelievable mistake for anybody who knew anything about the American West.
In Texas, as in many states west of the Mississippi, water rights can be worth more than the land itself. The rights give landowners control over a certain amount of water from the Rio Grande. That allocation can be sold to farmers who need water for their crops. Without water rights, there is no agriculture.
Now, Warner told the judge, the government was going to refile all of its taking cases to ensure that the landholders would retain those rights.
Justice Department attorneys discovered another giant mistake. Much of the fence had been built on top of an earthen levee running parallel to the Rio Grande. Only after construction did the government realize that property owners actually had title to the land beneath the levee. The government had not paid for any of it.
Daniel Hu, the U.S. attorney overseeing the condemnation lawsuits, offered an apology.
“We actually built the fence on land that we haven’t finished taking yet,” Hu told Hanen at a hearing.
In one case in the small town of Eagle Pass, Justice lawyers found 24 heirs to a half-acre tract overlooking the Rio Grande. The case took almost five years to unravel, with a plot worthy of a Gabriel García Márquez novel. The lawsuit involved the Roman Catholic Church, a competing land claim from another family, and a handwritten deed from 1894 that referred to the property line as “beginning at a mesquite tree eight inches in diameter on the east bank of the Rio Grande.”
More than nine years later, the case remains open. Justice Department attorneys continue to locate and pay the additional landholders. Just this September, the agency disbursed a payment of $5,750 to two owners.
The circumstance is not unusual. Pamela Rivas is one of more than 40 property owners who have waited almost a decade for their cases to resolve. Many involve complex ownership claims. The government had to untangle who owned a small tract of land in Rivas’ case.
The Justice Department spokesman explained that the government is not required to provide exact property descriptions or have done research prior to seizing land using a Declaration of Taking.
Employees of the U.S. Coast Guard who are facing a long U.S. government shutdown just received a suggestion: To get by without pay, consider holding a garage sale, babysitting, dog-walking or serving as a “mystery shopper.”
The suggestions were part of a five-page tip sheet published by the Coast Guard Support Program, an employee-assistance arm of the service often known as CG SUPRT. It is designated to offer Coast Guard members help with mental-health issues or other concerns about their lives, including financial wellness.
“Bankruptcy is a last option,” the document said.
...
The tip sheet, titled “Managing your finances during a furlough,” applies to the Coast Guard’s 8,500-person civilian workforce. About 6,400 of them are on indefinite furlough, while 2,100 are working without pay after being identified as essential workers, said Lt. Cmdr. Scott McBride, a service spokesman. They were last paid for the two-week period ended Dec. 22.
“While it may be uncomfortable to deal with the hard facts, it’s best to avoid the 'hide your head in the sand’ reaction,” the tip sheet said. “Stay in charge of the situation by getting a clear understanding of what’s happening.”
The Coast Guard removed the tip sheet from the support program’s website late Wednesday morning after The Washington Post inquired about it.
The suggestions do not “reflect the Coast Guard’s current efforts to support our workforce during this lapse in appropriations,” McBride said. “As such, this guidance has been removed.”
...
Late last month, the Coast Guard announced it had found enough money to pay its service members one last time through the end of the year. The Trump administration took credit afterward, releasing a statement that said the president and some of his staff members had worked “round the clock” to address the issue.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:34 am
by LordMortis
We should do something to increase border security if we aren't going to pay our Coast Guard.
We are so broken.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:41 am
by pr0ner
LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:34 am
We should do something to increase border security if we aren't going to pay our Coast Guard.
We are so broken.
As with your FDA comment:
Uhhh, what?
The uniformed officers and enlisteds of the US Coast Guard are still getting paid. The ones not working are part of their civilian support staff.
The partial government shutdown affects one branch of the United States military. It's the Coast Guard, which normally operates under the Department of Homeland Security. Forty-two thousand members of the Coast Guard are considered essential personnel so they must work.
They got a pay check December 31, but it's not clear when they can be paid again. They once answered to Admiral Thad Allen, who is a former commandant of the Coast Guard. He directed the response to Hurricane Katrina years ago, and he's in our studios. Admiral, welcome to the program.
...
INSKEEP: Would you describe what duties they are fulfilling without pay right now? What are the ordinary daily operations of the Coast Guard?
ALLEN: Well, the Coast Guard is essentially the emergency services in the maritime environment for the country. There are people standing search-and-rescue watch over every inch of coastline in the United States right now. They are cutters patrolling off shore. There's drug interdiction operations going on. We have an icebreaker en route to Antarctica to break up McMurdo so they can resupply the South Pole. All that's continuing.
...
INSKEEP: So let me understand this. If you're concerned about the flow of illegal drugs from Latin America into the United States, what you want to worry about is the Coast Guard?
ALLEN: It's quizzical, isn't it?
INSKEEP: (Laughter). What do you mean by quizzical?
ALLEN: It doesn't make sense.
INSKEEP: That they would not be paid in this situation?
ALLEN: Well, there are other government agencies. We have the Department of Agriculture, the Forest Service, National Park Service. Everybody's in the same condition right now, and we ought to be concerned about it.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:04 pm
by pr0ner
Huh. I thought they were more military than DHS and would be getting paid for the duration.
President Donald Trump has repeatedly advocated for a steel slat design for his border wall, which he described as "absolutely critical to border security" in his Oval Office address to the nation Tuesday. But Department of Homeland Security testing of a steel slat prototype proved it could be cut through with a saw, according to a report by DHS.
A photo exclusively obtained by NBC News shows the results of the test after military and Border Patrol personnel were instructed to attempt to destroy the barriers with common tools.
...
However, testing by DHS in late 2017 showed all eight prototypes, including the steel slats, were vulnerable to breaching, according to an internal February 2018 U.S. Customs and Border Protection report.
...
Responding to the picture from the South Lawn of the White House on Thursday morning, Trump claimed "that’s a wall designed by previous administrations."
While it is true that previous administrations used this design, the prototype was built during his administration.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:23 pm
by LawBeefaroni
What's sad is that he actually thinks an impenetrable wall is realistically possible.
Of course steel and concrete can be cut. So easy to get him off balance.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:24 pm
by coopasonic
I am guessing they don't have ladders in Mexico?
A photo exclusively obtained by NBC News shows the results of the test after military and Border Patrol personnel were instructed to attempt to destroy the barriers with common tools.
Also, is C4 a common tool? When I was in the Army I saw it all the time, but I have seen it less in recent years.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:25 pm
by Pyperkub
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:23 pm
What's sad is that he actually thinks an impenetrable wall is realistically possible.
Of course steel and concrete can be cut. So easy to get him off balance.
Implying even higher maintenance costs.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:41 pm
by Holman
Trump denies that he ever said Mexico would "write out a check" for the Wall.
You will be shocked to learn that he's lying. Numerous reporters have been talking about the detailed, step-by-step, batshit insane Wall plan that was prominent on Trump's website throughout the entire 2016 campaign.
It involved holding the Mexican economy hostage until they pay up.
It's great that Trump is flying down to McAllen Texas today to view the crisis up close...although it's going to be hard to do so when he's in one of the safest cities in America. Whoops.
Also, it's reported that Kushner is working with some GOP and Dem members on a way out of the crisis. Can we stop viewing him as some kind of great negotiator? The only reason this shithead is getting these meetings together is the Mangerine won't listen to anyone but relatives. And since he's hiring everyone but Barron to work for the government now, it's not like anyone else has a chance.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:49 pm
by Skinypupy
And the hits just keep on comin'
The FBI Agents Association claims that the shutdown could impact agents' ability to pay their debts, and that could jeopardize their security clearances.
Feature, not a bug.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:07 pm
by Jaymann
Can't they just raid the confiscated drug bust money?
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:18 pm
by Paingod
What makes you think they already haven't? An agent's gotta get his raise, yo.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:19 pm
by Fireball
pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:18 am
Didn't Pelosi already pass bills to keep everything but DHS open through the end of the FY, and DHS through Feb. 8? Is she now going to introduce more bills to hit all the closed agencies individually?
Yes, that is what we are doing.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:23 pm
by Unagi
If you don't admit defeat, you can't have any funding.
How could you have any funding, if you don't admit defeat.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:32 pm
by Kraken
Actually, the way around Trump is to make him think he won. The Chinese understand this and will pretend to deliver a trade agreement that Trump can pretend is a victory, so that the markets can pretend that crisis is over. In reality, China will concede the minimum that it can get away with in exchange for a return to business as usual (that's how negotiations work). For example, their federal government can repudiate technology transfer requirements...which actually take place as unwritten policies at the individual corporate level...without affecting anything.
Maybe Democrats can designate part of an existing fence "the MAGA-no Line" and Trump can crow about getting his wall.
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:33 pm
by Isgrimnur
Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:32 pm
"the MAGA-no Line"
Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:32 pm
"the MAGA-no Line"
Took me a second, but that's funny!
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:02 pm
by Freyland
Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:49 pm
And the hits just keep on comin'
The FBI Agents Association claims that the shutdown could impact agents' ability to pay their debts, and that could jeopardize their security clearances.
Feature, not a bug.
The Long Game to end the Mueller investigation!
Re: Shutdown
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:17 pm
by Enough
Don't worry guys, Trump has figured out how to keep the shutdown impacts to a minimum. You can at least still go to the National Park site at Trump's DC hotel since for some odd reason it's in full operation (FOIA request filed to see what odd reason that might be). And while nearly all my colleagues that work in federal natural resource agencies are sitting on their butts at least the BLM employees tasked with opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil and gas have an exemption to keep working through the shutdown. Important stuff! Oh you would rather maybe the FDA still provide food safety? Silly lib!
OMG, this admin makes me head assplode on a daily basis, such motherfers. I personally have one BLM contract that we have been "awarded" that is in limbo land for who knows how long thanks to the shutdown. Even when it ends they will be massively behind leading to further delays. For natural resource workers if this thing goes much into Feb, or especially March, entire field seasons this summer could be canceled.
