Islam is "The Truth"

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:51 pm

It's Not the ''Radical Shaykh'' it's Islam

An interesting explanation as to why Islam receives all the criticism about gays. What is even more staggering is when the whole room says they are normal average Muslims, but want all the penalties of the Koran enforced. Really?! We should implement 100 lashes for adultery and the death penalty for apostates? A medieval viewpoint with modern weapons is a scary combination.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:57 pm

Sometimes I wish Mohammed had been a Woman. Life would probably be so much easier had Allah chosen a woman to be his prophet.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:15 pm

Every religion has their hardline extremists who refuse to enter the 21st century...hell, the 19th century even.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:23 pm

hepcat wrote:Every religion has their hardline extremists who refuse to enter the 21st century...hell, the 19th century even.

Sometimes I wonder if Religions have adolescence. Catholicism had a 650 year headstart on Islam, which would put Islam right about in the Spanish Inquisition phase, and pre-Protestant reformation...

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:54 pm

I think it's more that religious extremism is nurtured by poverty and a sense of oppression. It's not all that goes into it, but resentment is rich fuel for self-righteousness.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:54 pm

There was a comedian I saw a while back that had a joke about that. The gist was that, if he's in the 16th century, he's probably not telling his jokes about Jesus.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:57 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
hepcat wrote:Every religion has their hardline extremists who refuse to enter the 21st century...hell, the 19th century even.
Sometimes I wonder if Religions have adolescence. Catholicism had a 650 year headstart on Islam, which would put Islam right about in the Spanish Inquisition phase, and pre-Protestant reformation...

Coincidentally this period lasts as long as the religion controls the government.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:03 pm

Moliere wrote:It's Not the ''Radical Shaykh'' it's Islam

An interesting explanation as to why Islam receives all the criticism about gays. What is even more staggering is when the whole room says they are normal average Muslims, but want all the penalties of the Koran enforced. Really?! We should implement 100 lashes for adultery and the death penalty for apostates? A medieval viewpoint with modern weapons is a scary combination.

I really don't think it's remotely true that "Islam receives all the criticism about gays." There are plenty of homophobes in the U.S., and of course here where religion is involved homophobia has a christian hue to it. And among things that contribute to prejudice towards Muslims, the treatment of gays in Islam is probably around #500 among islamophobes.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:35 pm

Moliere wrote:It's Not the ''Radical Shaykh'' it's Islam

An interesting explanation as to why Islam receives all the criticism about gays. What is even more staggering is when the whole room says they are normal average Muslims, but want all the penalties of the Koran enforced. Really?! We should implement 100 lashes for adultery and the death penalty for apostates? A medieval viewpoint with modern weapons is a scary combination.

Those muslims who claimed that they want all the penalties of the Koran enforced are probably those that don't read the Koran.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:09 am

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Moliere wrote:It's Not the ''Radical Shaykh'' it's Islam

An interesting explanation as to why Islam receives all the criticism about gays. What is even more staggering is when the whole room says they are normal average Muslims, but want all the penalties of the Koran enforced. Really?! We should implement 100 lashes for adultery and the death penalty for apostates? A medieval viewpoint with modern weapons is a scary combination.
Those muslims who claimed that they want all the penalties of the Koran enforced are probably those that don't read the Koran.

Maybe, but the speaker specifically mentioned things like stoning and the death penalty in his examples.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:21 pm

Some interesting punishments:

Adultery
24:2 "The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment."

For making war against Allah and his Messenger
5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger ... will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom."

Lewdness
4:15 "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them."

Stealing
5:38 "As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah."

I think there is a Monty Python bit in there. "Sir, could I please be expelled from the land?"

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:36 pm

Needs more spankings.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:45 pm

Had a conversation about Islam with my father the other night. Didn't go well. I could tell he was actively (and struggling) trying to keep himself from reaching a shrill scream.

He actually believes that Muslims are trying to take over the country. And considering all the shit I have given him over the past (hmm, how many days has Obama been President?), I thought to myself, "for once, stop reacting to his crazy and just listen, and see if you can derive some common ground, or at least ANY kind of thing you can agree on". Nope. Could not do it. He has been completely corrupted by Fox News and their hate mongering. Ironically, some would call it brain washing.

At one point in the conversation, I considered telling him that I have more than a few Muslim friends, but thought in the end that it probably wouldn't do any good. Head was firmly in sand, and I am sure if I had mentioned that, he would merely dismiss it, or chalk it up to them deceiving me somehow.

Hope that doesn't derail too much, but had to get that off my chest, and I couldn't find the thread where we complain about parents who have drunk the Fox News Kool-Aid (or far left for that matter, as it can certainly go both ways).

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:49 pm

I love my dad's view on politics.

...he doesn't really have one.

It's actually refreshing to hear someone effectively telling people, "hey, whatever works" when confronted about politics by friends and family.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:49 am

My dad has also expounded upon how "Islam is the greatest threat to America." He didn't much care for it when I told him that I was far more afraid of Southern Baptists than I was of Muslims. Not that he has any respect for fundamentalist Christians. He's pretty bitter and angry about religion altogether.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:41 pm

Islam is a threat to humanity, not just the U.S. It is medieval thinking with modern weapons. It is a religion that says apostates should be killed. That women who get raped require a confession or FOUR MALE witnesses to avoid going to jail as adulterers. How about Muslims that splash women with acid for trying to get an education or for dressing "immodestly". Remember it was the Taliban who shot Malala Yousafzai in the head for promoting education for girls. The video in the OP clearly shows that these are not extremist Islamic views, but what mainstream Muslims think are appropriate actions.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:26 pm

Christianity is a threat to humanity, not just the U.S. It is medieval thinking with modern weapons. It is a religion that says gay people should be killed. That women who get raped should marry their rapist. How about Christians that use child soldiers. Remember it was a christian pro-life movement that threw a molotov cocktail into a clinic for promoting reproductive health service. Articles clearly show that these are not extremist Christian views, but what mainstream Christians think are appropriate actions.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:27 pm

Moliere wrote:Islam is a threat to humanity, not just the U.S. It is medieval thinking with modern weapons. It is a religion that says apostates should be killed. That women who get raped require a confession or FOUR MALE witnesses to avoid going to jail as adulterers. How about Muslims that splash women with acid for trying to get an education or for dressing "immodestly". Remember it was the Taliban who shot Malala Yousafzai in the head for promoting education for girls. The video in the OP clearly shows that these are not extremist Islamic views, but what mainstream Muslims think are appropriate actions.

I'm on two college campuses just about every week, and I see educated, independent, un-assaulted female Islamic students all the time. They wear headscarves, so I assume they are at least mainstream in their religious convictions.

Next time I see one, I'll be sure to tell her she doesn't exist.

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:31 pm

Rich countries should just close their borders and stop immigration completely. I'm tired of giving a crapload of money to immigrants that come here, don't work and try to force us and "accept" their beliefs while we're forced to hide ours.

If they're not happy they can GTFO back to their hole in the desert I don't give a damn.

Note:
There are a lot of them that are adapting fine, they can stay

Arcanis · Post by **Arcanis** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:34 pm

Holman wrote:
Moliere wrote:Islam is a threat to humanity, not just the U.S. It is medieval thinking with modern weapons. It is a religion that says apostates should be killed. That women who get raped require a confession or FOUR MALE witnesses to avoid going to jail as adulterers. How about Muslims that splash women with acid for trying to get an education or for dressing "immodestly". Remember it was the Taliban who shot Malala Yousafzai in the head for promoting education for girls. The video in the OP clearly shows that these are not extremist Islamic views, but what mainstream Muslims think are appropriate actions.
I'm on two college campuses just about every week, and I see educated, independent, un-assaulted female Islamic students all the time. They wear headscarves, so I assume they are at least mainstream in their religious convictions.

Next time I see one, I'll be sure to tell her she doesn't exist.

I'll let the lady we have in judo with her 3 kids, including her daughter, know she isn't real either.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:50 pm

Vorret wrote:Rich countries should just close their borders and stop immigration completely. I'm tired of giving a crapload of money to immigrants that come here, don't work and try to force us and "accept" their beliefs while we're forced to hide ours.

If they're not happy they can GTFO back to their hole in the desert I don't give a damn.

Fucking Irish.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:54 pm

Holman wrote:
Vorret wrote:Rich countries should just close their borders and stop immigration completely. I'm tired of giving a crapload of money to immigrants that come here, don't work and try to force us and "accept" their beliefs while we're forced to hide ours.

If they're not happy they can GTFO back to their hole in the desert I don't give a damn.
Fucking Irish.

I suspect that the more they look like him, the less bothered he becomes.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:39 pm

hepcat wrote:
Holman wrote:
Vorret wrote:Rich countries should just close their borders and stop immigration completely. I'm tired of giving a crapload of money to immigrants that come here, don't work and try to force us and "accept" their beliefs while we're forced to hide ours.

If they're not happy they can GTFO back to their hole in the desert I don't give a damn.
Fucking Irish.
I suspect that the more they look like him, the less bothered he becomes.

Calling Isgrimnur, come in Isgrimnur:

we need a pic of Vorret, STAT!

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:28 pm

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:58 pm

What am I missing here? How does a youtube video that features apparently fundamentalist Muslims "prove" that the average Islamic guy on the street is itching to undermine western society by violent means, if necessary?

Just because 100 people that have been drawn to a fundamentalist religious lecture self-identify as "average everyday Muslims?"

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:18 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:Calling Isgrimnur, come in Isgrimnur:

we need a pic of Vorret, STAT!

Pictured lower right.

Arcanis · Post by **Arcanis** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:53 pm

geezer wrote:What am I missing here? How does a youtube video that features apparently fundamentalist Muslims "prove" that the average Islamic guy on the street is itching to undermine western society by violent means, if necessary?

Just because 100 people that have been drawn to a fundamentalist religious lecture self-identify as "average everyday Muslims?"

We have a winner! Pretty much all but the true nuts think they are mainstream or moderate (be it religion, politics, or any other particular topic people feel strongly about.)

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:55 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:Calling Isgrimnur, come in Isgrimnur:

we need a pic of Vorret, STAT!

Pictured lower right.

Wow... did they model jar jar binks after that book

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:59 am

I don't remember that Xanth novel...must be one of the later ones I didn't get to after slogging through so many back to back. Even though it's been 25-30 years since I read those, I specifically remember thinking "Why do I keep buying these books?! I know they aren't very good...but I just...can't...stop...!"

Wikipedia tells me the series continues to be published ...thirty freakin' eight Xanth novels! Wow.

And one called "The Color of Her Panties". I shit you not.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:48 am

Carpet_pissr wrote:And one called "The Color of Her Panties". I shit you not.

I read that one back when I was in High School. I also had the HS buddy that introduced me to the series get a published pun credited in the back of one of them.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:00 pm

Piers Anthony is apparently the fantasy author of choice for emotionally troubled early teens. I once read an interview with him where he basically said that he didn't care what critics thought of him--as long as he keeps getting letters from kids saying he has helped them cope, he'll keep writing for them.

It's been a long time since I read any Xanth. (I think I read the first six or seven when they were new.) Is there anything particularly troubled-teen about the series?

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:03 pm

This American Life has a beautiful episode about the boy who once ran away from home to go live with Piers Anthony. It made me wish I'd read his books when I was a kid.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:27 pm

Holman wrote:Piers Anthony is apparently the fantasy author of choice for emotionally troubled early teens. I once read an interview with him where he basically said that he didn't care what critics thought of him--as long as he keeps getting letters from kids saying he has helped them cope, he'll keep writing for them.

It's been a long time since I read any Xanth. (I think I read the first six or seven when they were new.) Is there anything particularly troubled-teen about the series?

Like you, I stopped reading after the first 6 or 7 (or however many were out at the time), but I don't remember anything in particular that would have spoken to an emotionally troubled kid. Guess I wasn't one if that's the case.

I think the draw for me was that each character had a specific power - some useful, some ridiculous, but finding out what they were and how they would be used was pretty entertaining I guess, since I read so many. Maybe there was a hint of sexuality as well? In those days, even a whiff would have kept me reading!

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:24 am

Moliere wrote:Islam is a threat to humanity, not just the U.S. It is medieval thinking with modern weapons. It is a religion that says apostates should be killed. That women who get raped require a confession or FOUR MALE witnesses to avoid going to jail as adulterers. How about Muslims that splash women with acid for trying to get an education or for dressing "immodestly". Remember it was the Taliban who shot Malala Yousafzai in the head for promoting education for girls. The video in the OP clearly shows that these are not extremist Islamic views, but what mainstream Muslims think are appropriate actions.

There are some misunderstanding there.

1. Apostates should be killed is in some of the hadith but doesn't exist in the Koran. Some of those hadith were written by someone that was borned over 200 years after their Prophet died so probably not that accurate. A more mainstream interpretation is that apostates are only allowed to be killed if they're actively fighting Islam in a war. But most of the more extreme groups really think that apostates should be killed.

2. About the 4 witnesses thing. It is not 4 witnesses to avoid being punished for adultery but to convict a woman with adultery, the court or accusers need to have 4 male witnesses.

I lived in Indonesia where the majority of the populations are muslims but while there are some extremist groups, the mainstream muslims doesn't think it is right to kill apostates, doesn't think it is right to punish women for being raped, doesn't mind if women dressed "immodestly", are not against women who go to school. Most muslims here send their daughters to college if they can afford it.

So the mainstream muslims don't think like what you accused them of.

Gavin · Post by **Gavin** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:10 am

I've never really understood American Iconoclasm. From the censorious nature of their laws that extend to the point of iconoclasm to the the scriptural treatment of women (including Koranic verses telling husbands to beat their wives after the 2nd warning has failed). It seems that in an attempt to prevent bigotry (which is always wrong), we've fallen into the trap of elevating Islam to a peaceful religion when that's not how it's practiced. I have found generally that the Koran doesn't say to wage war willy nilly. It just tells them to beat the shit out of those who are at war with them which isn't a bad concept. It even has laws regarding business transactions with non-Muslims and we saw Christians and Jews survive peacefully in their 700 year reign in spain. It's just that they have to pay a special taxes (discrimination) to do business and would get caught on blasphemy charges for publically proclaiming their religion.

JSHAW · Post by **JSHAW** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:13 am

But would a curved sword be better than a straight sword for beheadings?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:36 am

My favorite part of the Jewish-Christian Bible is where we're reminded to jettison the superstitious and dangerous parts of religion as soon as pluralist Modernity reveals them as quaint and unworkable. We're lucky God wrote that in for us.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:38 pm

Gavin wrote:It even has laws regarding business transactions with non-Muslims and we saw Christians and Jews survive peacefully in their 700 year reign in spain. It's just that they have to pay a special taxes (discrimination) to do business and would get caught on blasphemy charges for publically proclaiming their religion.

The bible also have some text that can be interpreted as not allowing Christians to do business with non Christians. I think Koran copied the laws regarding business transaction from a version of bible.

Jag · Post by **Jag** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:09 pm

Holman wrote:Piers Anthony is apparently the fantasy author of choice for emotionally troubled early teens. I once read an interview with him where he basically said that he didn't care what critics thought of him--as long as he keeps getting letters from kids saying he has helped them cope, he'll keep writing for them.

It's been a long time since I read any Xanth. (I think I read the first six or seven when they were new.) Is there anything particularly troubled-teen about the series?

Back off topic, the PA books were typically about loner kids in a very adult and dangerous world. They would have some sort of power that would let them thrive and overcome their issues. So not so much about troubled teens, but about teens that overcome adversity. Very Harry Potter like. It's why it also resonated with suburban geeks that didn't always fit in.

Gavin · Post by **Gavin** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:55 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Gavin wrote:It even has laws regarding business transactions with non-Muslims and we saw Christians and Jews survive peacefully in their 700 year reign in spain. It's just that they have to pay a special taxes (discrimination) to do business and would get caught on blasphemy charges for publically proclaiming their religion.
The bible also have some text that can be interpreted as not allowing Christians to do business with non Christians. I think Koran copied the laws regarding business transaction from a version of bible.

Ok? I thought the thread was about Islam. Did you know that the butter side up Zooks don't do business with the butter side down Zooks? Does what other groups or religions do somehow impact the group we're actually talking about and what they believe? Islam's faith is a lot closer knitted with Sharia law than pretty much any other religion from what I've seen so they still have an active theonomy going on. That makes their religious laws impact real lives outside of their faith.

That being said, as far as I know, there is no government legislation in the Christian covenant at all regarding whether or not they may commerce with any group or interact with any governments. Perhaps there is some in the Jewish covenant but I'm not familiar. Not that its pertinent to the thread, but could you perhaps enlighten me with the verse that "can be interpreted"? I'm always interested in what various faiths practice and believe.