Islam is "The Truth"

[Combustible Lemur]

Seem to me that with the "muslim" terrorists, most of the leaders are from rich background, most of the suicide bombers are from poor or oppressed background.

The little research I did seems to suggest that is not the definitive case. That it's varied and complex but that in particular regions poverty is definitely an out.

Sent courtesy of the Galaxy.... note2.

[Moliere]

Saudi Arabia Tries to Silence Center for Inquiry at UN Human Rights Council - 6/23/14

It must be tough to come from a country where criticism is illegal and then have to listen to it at the U.N.

[GreenGoo]

Saudi Arabia Tries to Silence Center for Inquiry at UN Human Rights Council - 6/23/14

It must be tough to come from a country where criticism is illegal and then have to listen to it at the U.N.

I'm sure China is sympathetic.

Entertaining video. Comment section was interesting as well.

[Moliere]

I'm sure China is sympathetic.

Yup

Chinese authorities formally arrested prominent lawyer Pu Zhiqiang on Friday for "picking quarrels and creating a disturbance."

[GreenGoo]

I'm sure China is sympathetic.

Yup

Chinese authorities formally arrested prominent lawyer Pu Zhiqiang on Friday for "picking quarrels and creating a disturbance."

I don't speak arabic, but one of the commenters said the actual translation of his first interuption was basically "tell her to shut up". Whether that's true or not, I'll believe it is, because it's funny.

[AndreiS]

If your bigotry depends on hating Muslims because you think Christians and Atheists haven't committed comparable crimes, you're not going to get far at all.

Atheism isn't a belief system. It's completely meaningless to group all Atheists together as a comparison with Christians and muslims.

My whole problem with this general rejection of generalisations of religious groups is that there's a colossal double standard going on. Religions ARE generalisations almost by definition. They constantly use the generalisations in order to gain power, whether it's conscious or not. If you start a religious group that just happens to be a part of Islam, you'll instantly get tax-free status, you'll have a huge number of liberals who will protect your belief system from criticism, and in some countries you'll get the state supporting your right to indoctrinate kids in religious schools.
So what happens if you DON'T accept the generalised label? Or if your belief system happens to belong to a lesser subscribed religion like Scientology? No tax-free status in most countries. No-one jumps to your defense (99% of people are quite happy to mock scientology publicly. I don't think it can be stressed enough how valuable this difference is.The social pressure to avoid embarassment is absolutely huge, especially when you're young.) and if you kept kids away from school because you want to indoctrinate them, most countries would probably intervene as they'd consider it a form of child abuse.

This is essentially how religion works. It deliberately accepts generalisations in order to gain extra power and privilege but then takes absolutely no responsibility for the extremism it creates. Which, crucially, wouldn't exist without that power and privlege. For example, when was the last time you found an extremist astrologer who was killing non-believers? Never! And that's because it doesn't have the social protections religions (or to be more accurate, the 4-6 main religions) are given. Until those protections are removed, we have an obligation to generalise.

[Moliere]

Nigerian man detained in mental institute in Kano 'because he renounced Islam'

A Nigerian man has been committed to a mental institute in Kano state despite being given a clean bill of health because he declared he did not believe in God, a humanist charity has said.

Mubarak Bala is being held against his will and forcibly medicated at the Aminu Kano Teaching Hospital, where he has been kept since 13 June, the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU) reports.

The chemical engineering graduate is allegedly being held on the grounds of a “personality change” because he declared himself an atheist despite being raised in a Muslim family in Kano, which is a mainly Muslim state.

[Jag]

I think "Whip Her Gently" was the unreleased B side to Killing Me Softly.

[Rip]

Strumming my pain with his fingers
Singeing my skin with his swords
Whipping me gently with his dong
Whipping me gently with his dong
Telling my whole life with his words
Whipping me gently with his dong

[GreenGoo]

I think "Whip Her Gently" was the unreleased B side to Killing Me Softly.

"Then avoid sleeping with her in one room" as a form of punishment. Brer Rabbit's eyes got very large. "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

These people really have no understanding of women at all, do they?

P.S. As an aside, searching for that quote I found out that most of the Brer Rabbit tales originated in Cherokee myth.

[Moliere]

Struggling to Keep Afghan Girl Safe After a Mullah Is Accused of Rape

It was bad enough that the alleged rape took place in the sanctity of a mosque, and that the accused man was a mullah who invoked the familiar defense that it had been consensual sex.

But the victim was only 10 years old. And there was more: The authorities said her family members openly planned to carry out an “honor killing” in the case — against the young girl. The mullah offered to marry his victim instead.

The case itself would just be an aberrant atrocity, except that the resulting support for the mullah, and for the girl’s family and its honor killing plans, have become emblematic of a broader failure to help Afghan women who have been victims of violence.

The result challenges hopes that Western aid and encouragement can make lasting headway on behalf of Afghan women, particularly in remote parts of the country where traditional customs are still stronger than modern law. Here, Taliban insurgents and pro-government elements often make common cause in their hatred of progress in women’s rights, most of which has come about with international funding and pressure.

[Moliere]

Islamic State: What do young British Muslims think about the Caliphate?

Follow the laws of Allah or face Sharia Law.

[RLMullen]

Islamic State: What do young British Muslims think about the Caliphate?

Follow the laws of Allah or face Sharia Law.

Seriously? You watched all nine minutes and forty-five seconds of that report, and that is your synopsis?

[Moliere]

Islamic State: What do young British Muslims think about the Caliphate?

Follow the laws of Allah or face Sharia Law.

Seriously? You watched all nine minutes and forty-five seconds of that report, and that is your synopsis?

My synopsis is that some of those guys are scary and delusional if they think the whole world will be united under Sharia Law. I worry about their means to that end.

[raydude]

Islamic State: What do young British Muslims think about the Caliphate?

Follow the laws of Allah or face Sharia Law.

Seriously? You watched all nine minutes and forty-five seconds of that report, and that is your synopsis?

My synopsis is that some of those guys are scary and delusional if they think the whole world will be united under Sharia Law. I worry about their means to that end.

Given the way that the opinions fell I wish I could ask the pro-Caliphate guys "Would you feel the same way about the Caliphate if you were a woman?"

[Moliere]

Can Liberalism Be Saved From Itself?
Watch the video confrontation between Sam Harris and Ben Affleck on Bill Maher’s show, Real Time then read Harris' follow-up about what happened.

After the show, Kristof, Affleck, Maher, and I continued our discussion. At one point, Kristof reiterated the claim that Maher and I had failed to acknowledge the existence of all the good Muslims who condemn ISIS, citing the popular hashtag #NotInOurName. In response, I said: “Yes, I agree that all condemnation of ISIS is good. But what do you think would happen if we had burned a copy of the Koran on tonight’s show? There would be riots in scores of countries. Embassies would fall. In response to our mistreating a book, millions of Muslims would take to the streets, and we would spend the rest of our lives fending off credible threats of murder. But when ISIS crucifies people, buries children alive, and rapes and tortures women by the thousands—all in the name of Islam—the response is a few small demonstrations in Europe and a hashtag.” I don’t think I’m being uncharitable when I say that neither Affleck nor Kristof had an intelligent response to this. Nor did they pretend to doubt the truth of what I said.
...
The litmus test for intellectual honesty on this point—which so many liberals fail—is to admit that one can draw a straight line from specific doctrines in Islam to the intolerance and violence we see in the Muslim world.

[GreenGoo]

I guess my response would be "so what?". That intolerance exists? Well duh. That religious zealotry exists? Well duh again. Death threats are not going to come from most American muslims, just like most American christians aren't going to agree with the outrageous crap spewed by Limbaugh and others.

Other countries aren't as enlightened as us? No shit. That currently muslims are intolerant and bigoted in general, with some extremely violent factions? Ok, without seeing numbers, that may actually be the case. But so what. Does he just want the freedom to criticize all of Islam without being called on it? Well, no, we don't do that, because, you know, we're more enlightened than that. We KNOW BETTER. Because we've come from that exact place. Our history (the white european descendants among us anyway) has been really, really awful at times. You don't believe what I believe? Murder. Torture. Jail. Our history is full of it.

We know that Islam is not the problem, just like Christianity wasn't the problem. We know that ALL MUSLIMS are not the problem, just like we know that Christianity came through it's darker periods and evolved into a more tolerant, kinder version of itself.

So...what? No, I won't let you use wording that lumps all Muslims together when what you really mean is certain factions of Islam, and certain aspects of Islam that aren't really core but kinda/sorta passively supported by some muslims.

There is no question in my mind that religious zealotry is bad. That doesn't make Islam bad (and if you disagree, look at your own history and tell me there is no hope for Islam). That people speak up when people want to make broad, over reaching statements is part of why we can call ourselves enlightened. That conservatives feel this is a negative that we must be saved from is laughable. I'm damn proud to be part of North American society that strives for tolerance, acceptance and understanding, even as we fail to achieve it often enough.

Make all the criticisms you want, but no, you won't be free from being criticized yourself. Welcome to the market place of ideas and free speech. Jagoff.

[Fretmute]

It tickles me that he mentions intellectual honesty immediately after he begs the question.

[LawBeefaroni]

It tickles me that he mentions intellectual honesty immediately after he begs the question.

Pretty amazing, innit?

[GreenGoo]

It tickles me that he mentions intellectual honesty immediately after he begs the question.

Pretty amazing, innit?

The one that gets my goat is "you're hypocritical because you're intolerant of my intolerance!". That one makes me bang my head against the wall.

[Moliere]

The one that gets my goat is "you're hypocritical because you're intolerant of my intolerance!". That one makes me bang my head against the wall.

Sam Harris isn't intolerant of Muslims. He's been very clear that it's the smaller subset of jihadists and their supporters that he is criticizing. As I bolded from his quote, it's also pretty clear that specific tenets of Islam lead to violence and intolerance of non-Muslims, gays, women's rights, apostasy, etc. And as he stated, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims that don't agree with these parts of the Koran, but that doesn't mean they aren't there and being acted upon by the more conservative orthodox Muslims.

[GreenGoo]

My comment was for the general usage of the "got ya!" stupidity. I have no opinion of Sam Harris.

And as he stated, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims that don't agree with these parts of the Koran, but that doesn't mean they aren't there and being acted upon by the more conservative orthodox Muslims

That's fine, and I agree, but this is not a unique feature of Islam, so pointing it out like it's important is sort of useless.

[Trent Steel]

And as he stated, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims that don't agree with these parts of the Koran, but that doesn't mean they aren't there and being acted upon by the more conservative orthodox Muslims

That's fine, and I agree, but this is not a unique feature of Islam, so pointing it out like it's important is sort of useless.

Is it? Just like you said previously, Christianity had it's dark period in history and has since evolved. If this is the "dark period" of Islam (I not making a definitive statement, just hypothesizing), then the rest of the world shrugging their shoulders and saying, "So what?" doesn't seem appropriate.

[tgb]

I watched the original broadcast of that kerfuffle (I was disappointed that HBO just re-ran it the other night, instead of there being a follow-up). I get what Maher and Harris are saying - that violence and intolerance are so inherent to Islamic dogma that it goes beyond extremism.

I've never read the Koran, so can't speak to what's inside. A good bellweather as to intolerance in the mainstream Muslim community would be this:

What percentage of self-proclaimed Muslims supported the fatwa against Salman Rushdie? Surprisingly, my google-fu couldn't turn up the answer, but if it was a clear majority, than the problem does in fact lie within Islam, and not just the fringe element.

[Isgrimnur]

Reading the Koran isn't going to give you a decent insight into modern Islamic society any more than reading the Bible would give you insight into the societies of the Elizabethan era.

[tgb]

Reading the Koran isn't going to give you a decent insight into modern Islamic society any more than reading the Bible would give you insight into the societies of the Elizabethan era.

True. But knowing the percentage of "mainstream" Muslims who support fatwa will.

[Moliere]

What percentage of self-proclaimed Muslims supported the fatwa against Salman Rushdie? Surprisingly, my google-fu couldn't turn up the answer, but if it was a clear majority, than the problem does in fact lie within Islam, and not just the fringe element.

Iranian mullah revives death fatwa against Salman Rushdie

Not poll data, but this kind of sums up why Islam is so depressing in the modern era:

In 2012, Hassan Sanei, the head of the state-funded 15 Khordad, raised the bounty on Rushdie's head by $500,000 to $3.3million ($2million).
He said Islamaphobic literature and films would not have been made if it weren't for the Satanic Verses.
'Surely if the sentence of the Imam had been carried out, the later insults in the form of caricatures, articles and the making of movies would not have occurred,' he said in a statement.
'I am adding another $500,000 to the reward for killing Salman Rushdie and anyone who carries out this sentence will receive the whole amount immediately.'
Also in 2012, Rushdie became the subject of a computer game in Iran called The Stressful Life Of Salman Rushdie And Implementation Of His Verdict.
The programme is intended to teach the younger generation about the 'highly important' fatwa.

[tgb]

And if the majority of mainstream Muslims go along with this, it only proves Maher's point - that intolerance, bigotry, violence, and just general nuttiness is not limited to Muslim extremists, but is in fact inherent throughout Islam.

[Rip]

And if the majority of mainstream Muslims go along with this, it only proves Maher's point - that intolerance, bigotry, violence, and just general nuttiness is not limited to Muslim extremists, but is in fact inherent throughout Islam.

Which becomes the problem. Little hard to get an idea of what "mainstream Muslims" think because they don't seem to have much of a voice. A Muslim with an independent voice that would speak out against the over the top bloodlust of the radicals is an endangered species. I would imagine because they are well aware that being Muslim doesn't prevent you from being a victim of the violence.

A good example is the difficulty getting hardly any Muslim leader to speak out against the kidnapping and killing of those Israeli teens. The mental and verbal gymnastics they will go through to avoid condemning it says it all.

[tgb]

And if the majority of mainstream Muslims go along with this, it only proves Maher's point - that intolerance, bigotry, violence, and just general nuttiness is not limited to Muslim extremists, but is in fact inherent throughout Islam.

Which becomes the problem. Little hard to get an idea of what "mainstream Muslims" think because they don't seem to have much of a voice. A Muslim with an independent voice that would speak out against the over the top bloodlust of the radicals is an endangered species. l.

Depends on where they are. There are hundred of thousands (millions?) of observant Muslims living in the US, Western Europe, etc. that are free to express an opinion on the fatwa without fear of reprisal. How do they feel about it? Where are their voices? Even Cat Fucking Stevens called for Rushdie's death.

[Rip]

And if the majority of mainstream Muslims go along with this, it only proves Maher's point - that intolerance, bigotry, violence, and just general nuttiness is not limited to Muslim extremists, but is in fact inherent throughout Islam.

Which becomes the problem. Little hard to get an idea of what "mainstream Muslims" think because they don't seem to have much of a voice. A Muslim with an independent voice that would speak out against the over the top bloodlust of the radicals is an endangered species. l.

Depends on where they are. There are hundred of thousands (millions?) of observant Muslims living in the US, Western Europe, etc. that are free to express an opinion on the fatwa without fear of reprisal. How do they feel about it? Where are their voices? Even Cat Fucking Stevens called for Rushdie's death.

I don't think they have that much of a problem with it. Just trying to give them the benefit of doubt.

I will say this. I see people raised as Christians question, challenge, and even mock their religion on a regular basis. Can't think of any Muslims that are willing to do the same. I like to think they are more like the good person who sees someone strike their spouse but choose not to intervene out of fear and thinking it isn't their problem. At least that is what I hope because that so many people are onboard with the violence and suppression of other peoples religious freedoms is a thought I find unsettling.

[tgb]

Here's an analogy a little closer to home. At one time in our history, the majority of Southerners sympathized with the Klan, even if they weren't out wearing bed sheets and burning crosses themselves. The fact that they didn't act on their beliefs doesn't absolve them of their hatred and bigotry.

[Madmarcus]

I will say this. I see people raised as Christians question, challenge, and even mock their religion on a regular basis. Can't think of any Muslims that are willing to do the same.

The problem is that those Christians are in secular nations with significantly more pluralistic views. I'm not sure that we can directly compare someone in America questioning their Catholic or Baptist upbringing to someone in Iran or Egypt questioning their Islamic upbringing. I have certainly seen high school and college age students raised in Muslim households criticize and question their parents faith.

I don't know terribly many Muslims but I have known some. Most are "Easter and Christmas" Muslims with generally secular views but a connection to Islam because of culture and attendance at services because its a way to keep in touch with a community from their birth country. I've never asked them about the fatwa but the have never asked me about my views on the Pope either. I don't agree with the Pope but I certainly don't make a big deal about it. I think its fairly safe to say that they don't agree with the fatwa but its a random religious leader a long way away; why would they raise any sort of fuss about it?

[Rip]

I will say this. I see people raised as Christians question, challenge, and even mock their religion on a regular basis. Can't think of any Muslims that are willing to do the same.

The problem is that those Christians are in secular nations with significantly more pluralistic views. I'm not sure that we can directly compare someone in America questioning their Catholic or Baptist upbringing to someone in Iran or Egypt questioning their Islamic upbringing. I have certainly seen high school and college age students raised in Muslim households criticize and question their parents faith.

I don't know terribly many Muslims but I have known some. Most are "Easter and Christmas" Muslims with generally secular views but a connection to Islam because of culture and attendance at services because its a way to keep in touch with a community from their birth country. I've never asked them about the fatwa but the have never asked me about my views on the Pope either. I don't agree with the Pope but I certainly don't make a big deal about it. I think its fairly safe to say that they don't agree with the fatwa but its a random religious leader a long way away; why would they raise any sort of fuss about it?

Who said people in Iran or Egypt. I am talking about Muslims here, or in Europe etc.

When the pope starts suggesting that it is ok to murder someone you will hear from every part of the Christian world it being mocked and rejected with enthusiasm. There is a big difference between not agreeing with a church leader on some doctrine and not bothering to voice disgust at a religious leader who endorses straight up murder. You can bet that if a Jewish church leader endorsed the outright murder of Muslims we would hear backlash from Jews the world over. Of course I am sure that would just be written off being a safe thing to do given their control of the world.

[tgb]

Again, I don't know for sure because I haven't seen the numbers, but I suspect if you stopped the average Muslim on the street in New York, or Tucson, or Paris, or London and asked what he/she thought about the fatwa against Rushdie, the answer would be the same bullshit Cat Stevens came up with

"Well, I'm not saying he should be killed. It's what the Koran says. And who am I to question that?"

And therein lies the problem.

[AWS260]

Again, I don't know for sure because I haven't seen the numbers, but I suspect if you stopped the average Muslim on the street in New York, or Tucson, or Paris, or London and asked what he/she thought about the fatwa against Rushdie, the answer would be the same bullshit Cat Stevens came up with

"Well, I'm not saying he should be killed. It's what the Koran says. And who am I to question that?"

And therein lies the problem.

I suspect you are wrong. Muslim Americans are on average much younger than the overall U.S. population, so I think the most likely response would be, "What's Rushdie? Is that the new Nicki Minaj song?"

Also, why would a Muslim American give a shit about what some mullah in Iran says? He's not the pope; he's not even an imam. Also, he's from the Shi'a branch of Islam, which accounts for only about a tenth of U.S. Muslims. And Shi'a Muslims in the U.S. tend to be quite tolerant -- a poll found that just one in five believe that "Islam is the one true faith." Source

Muslims are an incredibly diverse group of people. The only thing they all have in common is their religion, but even that is extraordinarily splintered and diverse. To assume that Cat Stevens speaks for every Muslim...

Therein lies the problem.

[tgb]

I'm not assuming anything. I went looking for some numbers on how the majority of Muslims feel about anything, and didn't find any. I've said all along this is all supposition.

[Holman]

I've never seen any numbers. From what I know, though, I would assume that a Khomeini fatwa carries about as much weight as a pronouncement by Jerry Falwell that Christians should not see R-rated movies. Some followers will heed it, others will give it lip service, others will grudgingly admit that it has a basis in the Bible, but it hardly becomes a belief of "all Christians." They're still going to go see Caddyshack.

Rushdie is in danger from Islamic extremists, but that's not the same as being in danger from Muslims everywhere.

[Grifman]

I'm not assuming anything. I went looking for some numbers on how the majority of Muslims feel about anything, and didn't find any. I've said all along this is all supposition.

You want Muslim public opinion, I got Muslim public opinion:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

You need a better search engine - this was the first item that popped up when I searched on "Muslim public opinion"

[Grifman]

Here's an interesting non-scientific live survey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYAcLudBbhg#t=154