Islam is "The Truth"

[Toe]

I'm not assuming anything. I went looking for some numbers on how the majority of Muslims feel about anything, and didn't find any. I've said all along this is all supposition.

You want Muslim public opinion, I got Muslim public opinion:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

You need a better search engine - this was the first item that popped up when I searched on "Muslim public opinion"

Some interesting info in there, thanks for posting. While I feel that sample sizes are rather small in the grand scheme of things, still interesting stuff.
One of the odd things I drew from it was 5 of the 6 major regions show 90%+ of Muslims saying religious freedom is a good thing. That sounds like good news you would think. Yet of those Muslims that support sharia in those regions, 13-76% support executing those who leave Islam. While that is skewed due to not all Muslims supporting sharia, it still seems a bit wacky. It does highlight a major difference (imho) between other religions where I would bet that the number is close to 0% for those that support executing someone that leaves their religion.

[Carpet_pissr]

Anecdotally, one of my friends that lives in Malaysia (a native, but went to school at UNC) told me during a long political discussion we had last year, that the majority of people in many of the so called Arab spring countries simply do not WANT democracy. She felt that "The West" was trying to impose its soft power to force them into a system that ultimately does not fit well, culturally, in many Muslim countries.

[GreenGoo]

They may not want democracy but they sure weren't happy with what they had, otherwise Arab Spring wouldn't have been a thing.

[Moliere]

Not even allowed to show their eyes.

Sheikh Motlab al Nabet, spokesman of the Saudi Arabian Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, said they ‘had the right’ to force women to cover their face.

‘The men of the committee will interfere to force women to cover their eyes, especially the tempting ones,’ he said.

‘We have the right to do so.’

[LawBeefaroni]

Not even allowed to show their eyes.

Sheikh Motlab al Nabet, spokesman of the Saudi Arabian Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, said they ‘had the right’ to force women to cover their face.

‘The men of the committee will interfere to force women to cover their eyes, especially the tempting ones,’ he said.

‘We have the right to do so.’

In other news, Gucci Riyadh expects sunglasses sales to increase by 20%.


Seriously, it's just yet another move to exert control over certain classes. It's wrong and evil but in the end it's about power and control, not religion. Religion, as always, is the excuse.

[Moliere]

It's wrong and evil but in the end it's about power and control, not religion. Religion, as always, is the excuse.

Religion just found another excuse.

Boko Haram crisis: Nigeria's Baga town hit by new assault

Boko Haram fighters burnt down almost the entire town on Wednesday, after over-running a military base on Saturday, Musa Alhaji Bukar said.

Bodies lay strewn on Baga's streets, amid fears that some 2,000 people had been killed in the raids, he added.

Boko Haram launched a military campaign in 2009 to create an Islamic state.

[GreenGoo]

They have been an ongoing problem despite a lapse in media reporting. I believe the US has gotten involved, but I haven't heard any status reports. They (relatively) recently raided a mine and murdered all the christians while letting the muslims live.

[Moliere]

They have been an ongoing problem despite a lapse in media reporting.

Twelve die in Paris, 2000 die in Nigeria. Media reporting is in reverse proportion.

[GreenGoo]

They have been an ongoing problem despite a lapse in media reporting.

Twelve die in Paris, 2000 die in Nigeria. Media reporting is in reverse proportion.

Those 2000 are far away poor people of a different colour.

[noxiousdog]

They have been an ongoing problem despite a lapse in media reporting.

Twelve die in Paris, 2000 die in Nigeria. Media reporting is in reverse proportion.

Those 2000 are far away poor people of a different colour.

Sure. And that's why OO relegates to page six of a barely relevant thread as opposed to it's own thread in EBG.

Or, maybe there's a lot more complexity to what makes news. Something like the flu vs. Ebola for example.

[GreenGoo]

They have been an ongoing problem despite a lapse in media reporting.

Twelve die in Paris, 2000 die in Nigeria. Media reporting is in reverse proportion.

Those 2000 are far away poor people of a different colour.

Sure. And that's why OO relegates to page six of a barely relevant thread as opposed to it's own thread in EBG.

Or, maybe there's a lot more complexity to what makes news. Something like the flu vs. Ebola for example.

I was being (partially) facetious. You can't argue that my point isn't a factor though.

[noxiousdog]

They have been an ongoing problem despite a lapse in media reporting.

Twelve die in Paris, 2000 die in Nigeria. Media reporting is in reverse proportion.

Those 2000 are far away poor people of a different colour.

Sure. And that's why OO relegates to page six of a barely relevant thread as opposed to it's own thread in EBG.

Or, maybe there's a lot more complexity to what makes news. Something like the flu vs. Ebola for example.

I was being (partially) facetious. You can't argue that my point isn't a factor though.

If you say so.

[Rip]

They have been an ongoing problem despite a lapse in media reporting.

Twelve die in Paris, 2000 die in Nigeria. Media reporting is in reverse proportion.

Those 2000 are far away poor people of a different colour.

Sure. And that's why OO relegates to page six of a barely relevant thread as opposed to it's own thread in EBG.

Or, maybe there's a lot more complexity to what makes news. Something like the flu vs. Ebola for example.

I was being (partially) facetious. You can't argue that my point isn't a factor though.

Which one? That they are far away? That they are poor? That they aren't whatever COLOUR the media is?

[Holman]

Westerners have never really been interested in non-Westerners being evil to other non-Westerners.

This is why most probably have no idea that, of all victims of Islamic extremism, the great majority are other Muslims. (Including, though only coincidentally, one of the two policeman murdered at the start of the Paris attack this week.)

[GreenGoo]

If you say so.

I do.

[Rip]

Westerners have never really been interested in non-Westerners being evil to other non-Westerners.

This is why most probably have no idea that, of all victims of Islamic extremism, the great majority are other Muslims. (Including, though only coincidentally, one of the two policeman murdered at the start of the Paris attack this week.)

Is that somehow counter to the rest of the world? Are non-Westerners interested in Westerners being evil to other Westerners? Seems to me to be a more basic tendency of people (all people) being less interested in people being evil to each other the further away from them and people like them the evil is. Much as the US was not all that interested in Germany's evil until it became obvious the evil was coming to their doorstep. Has nothing to do with Westerners/non-Westerners.

[Holman]

Westerners have never really been interested in non-Westerners being evil to other non-Westerners.

This is why most probably have no idea that, of all victims of Islamic extremism, the great majority are other Muslims. (Including, though only coincidentally, one of the two policeman murdered at the start of the Paris attack this week.)

Is that somehow counter to the rest of the world? Are non-Westerners interested in Westerners being evil to other Westerners? Seems to me to be a more basic tendency of people (all people) being less interested in people being evil to each other the further away from them and people like them the evil is. Much as the US was not all that interested in Germany's evil until it became obvious the evil was coming to their doorstep. Has nothing to do with Westerners/non-Westerners.

Sure, sure. But it's worth noticing that our view isn't as comprehensive as we usually tell ourselves it is. Especially when the terrorism we're talking about is pretty much the dominant global narrative of our time.

[Drazzil]

I seriously wonder how long the rest of the world is going to put up with Islam before going to war with it. I can fully see a future where the world treats Islam like Germany treats Nazism.

[stessier]

I seriously wonder how long the rest of the world is going to put up with Radical Islam before going to war with it. I can fully see a future where the world treats Radical Islam like Germany treats Nazism.

FTFY. And how we view the KKK. And we're already at war with them...or they are with us...or something.

[Moliere]

The first 50 of 1000 lashes are to be administered today against a blogger for insulting Islam.

A Saudi blogger who was sentenced last May to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes will be publicly flogged for the first time after Friday prayers outside a mosque in the Red Sea coastal city of Jeddah, according to a person close to his case.

Raif Badawi was sentenced on charges related to accusations that he insulted Islam on a liberal online forum he had created. He was also ordered by the Jeddah criminal court to pay a fine of 1m Saudi riyals, or about $266,000.

[Drazzil]

I seriously wonder how long the rest of the world is going to put up with Radical Islam before going to war with it. I can fully see a future where the world treats Radical Islam like Germany treats Nazism.

FTFY. And how we view the KKK. And we're already at war with them...or they are with us...or something.

Yeah but Islam itself kind of needs to change too. Someone much smarter then me quoted a bunch of stuff here like a not insignificant percentage of Muslims still believe in stoning, and death sentences for people who convert to other religions. That kind of stuff needs to change or the rest of the world will probably do their best to snuff it out. Kind of like the British did to the Kali cult in India.

[Redfive]

I don't think 1 billion people + are going to be snuffed out.

[LawBeefaroni]

I don't think 1 billion people + are going to be snuffed out.

1.7B. It's really on them to reign in their extremists. We can't go to "war" (as Draz put it) against roughly 25% of the world's population.

[Isgrimnur]

It worked out well for the Nazis.

[LordMortis]

I seriously wonder how long the rest of the world is going to put up with Radical Islam before going to war with it. I can fully see a future where the world treats Radical Islam like Germany treats Nazism.

FTFY. And how we view the KKK. And we're already at war with them...or they are with us...or something.

I posted this in Paris thread but now it seems more appropriate here

http://mic.com/articles/108076/here-s-h ... o-massacre

[Moliere]

I posted this in Paris thread but now it seems more appropriate here

http://mic.com/articles/108076/here-s-h ... o-massacre

Another good summary of Muslim reactions.

[Kasey Chang]

Was listening to OnPoint with Tom Ashbrook where they had an hour discussing this. And I can't help but to feel a huge "disconnect" between the two cultures.

The French is basically "Hah, if you live in France you have to understand French culture! We are very secular!"

And a few Muslims who called in condemned the attack but with a caveat... why didn't the paper leave Islam out of it?

What it basically points to: Some Islamic lunatic fringe has no sense of humor... and they deal with that with run guns and knives.

But, that may be at the heart of what is or is not Islam. Remember, religion, at its very heart, is a mind-control mechanism. Islam is not peace, but rather "submission (to the will of Allah)", as a controversial speaker Anjem Choudary pointed out. Thus, Islam does NOT recognize the concept of "freedom of speech / expression".

Choudary did bring up an interesting comparison: can what Charlie Hebdo printed consider "hate speech", which is outlawed in many European countries? Indeed, that's what many Muslims brought up, i.e. why can they insult us with impunity? However, such is a flawed argument. a) Charlie Hebdo is equal opportunist insulter, and b) there's a difference between satire / mockery and "hate speech".

[Kasey Chang]

Dropped this comment over on Jezebel:

*Some* of the problem with Islam is fundamental to Islam itself.

At the most fundamental level, religion is about public mind control, trying to steer a population into behavior that is desired. But Islam actually goes a step further. Some people say Islam means peace, but the one of the definitions of Islam is "submission (to the will of Allah)". And that, by its nature, can mean "there is no freedom of speech / expression in Islam", if you want to interpret that with a radical slant.

Most religions have tenets about behavior: Thou shall not do this, thou shall not do that. Islam is far more pervasive... it codified THOUGHT CONTROL. Ex: It orders women to be covered up and hidden from public because men shall not have IMPURE THOUGHTS.

Another thing that sets Islam apart is how it treats people NOT of Islam... and how it had mutated through centuries.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Prophet Mohammed had left orders that "People of the Book", i.e. Christians are to be left alone as Allah is the same God that Christians worship, albeit different names. Lebanon / Jerusalem had always been a cosmopolitan city with various religions living in peace alongside each other. It wasn't until the Crusades that Islam and Christianity became mortal enemies, and you started getting Fatwas that declared infidels to be vermin that can be exterminated or enslaved. The Palestine / Israel mess made it worse.

But AFAIK Islam is the only "major" religion that does not treat non-believers fairly, esp. in Shariah courts. IIRC, only Muslims can testify in Shariah court. So if a non-Muslim is charged, tough luck. The Asia Bibi case was a prime example of that.

And when those people emigrated, they somehow took their attitudes with them to an area that is not Islam, where THEY are the minority, yet they expect others to conform to them rather than the other way around. They mistake their "freedom" as concessions to their faith.

[Kasey Chang]

Someone pointed out that what I pinpointed is actually the fringe of Islam known as Salafism, but it has big followers, such as Saudi Arabia (which has Wahhabism, and close cousin)

[Drazzil]

I don't think 1 billion people + are going to be snuffed out.

1.7B. It's really on them to reign in their extremists. We can't go to "war" (as Draz put it) against roughly 25% of the world's population.

Yeah we can, we did it during World War 2 and the Cold War. Also, whatever we are going to do, we need to do it soon, while we have the technological, military and economic advantage on our side. In 25 years, things will be very different.

[Holman]

I don't think 1 billion people + are going to be snuffed out.

1.7B. It's really on them to reign in their extremists. We can't go to "war" (as Draz put it) against roughly 25% of the world's population.

Yeah we can, we did it during World War 2 and the Cold War. Also, whatever we are going to do, we need to do it soon, while we have the technological, military and economic advantage on our side. In 25 years, things will be very different.

We need a plan. Do you favor beheading or just forced conversion?

[Kraken]

The fundamentalist world will always be technologically, economically, and militarily inferior to the secular. That's why they use terrorism. And if they ever convert to rational secular societies they lose that unholy fervor, and cease to be a threat. You only "defeat" them when they willingly assimilate.

[Kasey Chang]

How do we do it to our own "fundamentalists" though?

It's almost as if our Founding Fathers were prescient... They *knew* that mixing government and religion leads to problems down the road.

The other problem discussed in OnPoint is how the incident will polarize the society, turning the issue of for/against Islam instead of for/against lunatics, esp. when rightwing extremists want to hijack the issue.

[Kraken]

Leaving aside the cultural difference that Christian fundies don't blow themselves up for their god? We bring down the full force of the state when they cross the line into violence. You can't cure fundamentalism, but you can disempower it.

[stessier]

Leaving aside the cultural difference that Christian fundies don't blow themselves up for their god? We bring down the full force of the state when they cross the line into violence. You can't cure fundamentalism, but you can disempower it.

It certainly works well in Israel.

[Kasey Chang]

Leaving aside the cultural difference that Christian fundies don't blow themselves up for their god? We bring down the full force of the state when they cross the line into violence. You can't cure fundamentalism, but you can disempower it.

It certainly works well in Israel.

Problem with Israel is they don't deal with their OWN fundamentalists (i.e. the hard right), which had assassinated one of their own prime ministers for being too "accommodating" to the Palestinians. Clean house, THEN deal with the external problems. In the US we know the "militia" and "sovereign citizens" are the lunatic fringe and we clamp down on them when they go out of line (like shoot up police barracks or shoot a trooper). In Israel they allow those hardliners to be elected and push their agenda. You think Tea Party is bad, you haven't see the crazies in the Israeli Knesset.

[Rip]

Leaving aside the cultural difference that Christian fundies don't blow themselves up for their god? We bring down the full force of the state when they cross the line into violence. You can't cure fundamentalism, but you can disempower it.

It certainly works well in Israel.

Problem with Israel is they don't deal with their OWN fundamentalists (i.e. the hard right), which had assassinated one of their own prime ministers for being too "accommodating" to the Palestinians. Clean house, THEN deal with the external problems. In the US we know the "militia" and "sovereign citizens" are the lunatic fringe and we clamp down on them when they go out of line (like shoot up police barracks or shoot a trooper). In Israel they allow those hardliners to be elected and push their agenda. You think Tea Party is bad, you haven't see the crazies in the Israeli Knesset.

Really? How many mass murders of civilians have the Israeli right wingers committed? How many lashes does being a Muslim get you in Israel? How about the Tea Party? Strange but I must have missed all the Tea Party terror attacks.

Comparing apples and oranges is one thing but this is comparing apples and watermelon.

Even fairly moderate countries that are dominated by Muslim beliefs do some very crazy stuff to anyone who isn't a Muslim simply for not being one.

An Egyptian court has sentenced a student to three years in jail for announcing on Facebook that he is an atheist and for insulting Islam, his lawyer said Sunday.

Karim al-Banna, a 21-year-old whose own father testified against him, was jailed by a court in the Nile Delta province of Baheira on Saturday, lawyer Ahmed Abdel Nabi told AFP.

http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-student-get ... QAe.rQtDMD

[Defiant]

I posted this in Paris thread but now it seems more appropriate here

http://mic.com/articles/108076/here-s-h ... o-massacre

Another good summary of Muslim reactions.

I'm not sure those are entirely representative, either. For instance, there are examples of newspapers justifying the attacks and applauding them. While it's true that many countries did condemn it, but some of them don't quite ring true. Indeed, when Hamas and Hezbollah condemn a terrorist attack, the phrase "talk is cheap" comes to mind. Still, a number of countries have moved away from openly supporting terrrorism in recent years.

The reality is that a group of one billion people aren't uniform. There are many, many muslims that are outraged and don't support these kind of attacks but there is still a significant number who do.

[Defiant]

They have been an ongoing problem despite a lapse in media reporting.

Twelve die in Paris, 2000 die in Nigeria. Media reporting is in reverse proportion.

Those 2000 are far away poor people of a different colour.

Certainly this plays a big part in it. People are more concerned with news that is closer to them (both in distance and in culture) - hence why there's "local" news segment (or a local and national section in a newspaper).

Another aspect would be in the number of resources available (eg, journalists, etc) to news services in Paris vs Nigeria (I imagine (hope?) that more coverage will be made in the days and weeks ahead). Also, it's part of a larger insurgency, so it's less new news than an attack out of nowhere.

Still, it's an absolute disgrace that it hasn't been more visibly reported.

[Defiant]

Problem with Israel is they don't deal with their OWN fundamentalists (i.e. the hard right), which had assassinated one of their own prime ministers for being too "accommodating" to the Palestinians. Clean house, THEN deal with the external problems. In the US we know the "militia" and "sovereign citizens" are the lunatic fringe and we clamp down on them when they go out of line (like shoot up police barracks or shoot a trooper).

You mean like arresting them?

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/fe ... n-1.353211
http://www.jta.org/2014/07/27/news-opin ... inian-teen
http://www.jta.org/1994/03/14/archive/i ... ist-groups