Ukraine

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Rip
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Grifman wrote:And I'm still waiting on Supreme Commander Rip to tell me what realistic military actions he wants the US to take see he seems to intent on getting into a shooting war.
I wouldn't take any immediate actions. I would however have moved assets and deployed carriers and submarines to the area and made a VERY big point of announcing such ina very public manner.

I would have not said I was considering not going to the summit in Sochi, I would have said point blank I wsn't going and was srongly considering apush to expel Russia from the G8.

I would have announced that he Czech missle defense was back on.

I would have said that we were going to ramp up support for Syrian rebels substantially right away and blockade Russian ships from Syrai until Russian forces were withdrawn from Ukraine.

I would have announced the agreement with Iran was suspended until this was resolved and I was streamlining additional sanctions against Iran and asking congress to expedite sanctions against Russia that would be ready for me to sign if forces were not withdrawn.

I would have signed an executive action freezing all Russian assets as well as the personal assets of all Russian goverment personnel and those of all public and private Russian entities.

I would have done a couple of these right off and every day that I didn't get an indication that Russia was going to withdraw the forces I would do another.

Then there would be zero doubt as to what the cost of interferring in Ukraine would be and there would hang the possibility of actual military action. Which of course is the area we would be most limited because our capability to react militarily right now is extremely limited.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Grifman wrote:
Rip wrote:So basically what you are saying is any nation in eastern europe that doesn't want to potentially get invaded by Russia should get a nuclear weapons program pronto, because that is the ONLY thing you can hope for that will actually keep them at bay.
The only nations in Eastern Europe that aren't in NATO are Moldova and Ukraine. It's a bit late for Ukraine and Moldova doesn't have the money or technical ability.

FYI this is the whole reason all those Eastern European counties such as Poland and the Baltics wanted into NATO - they wanted a security guarantee. Now they have it.
That prospect scares the hell out of me, but hey what choice do they have?
I'm not sure what you are scared of. Even if Moldova and Ukraine got nukes, they wouldn't be aimed at us. It's the Russians who should be worried if that were to come to pass.
I am not so sure at the moment that even action against one of those NATO countries would cause much action on our part.

It scares me because proliferation doesn't just happen in a vacuum, for every country that gets nuclear weapons ten more decide they want them to. Not to mention even if not pointed at us weapons launched against even an enemy vastly increases the likliehood that more weapons will be launched in various responses. At some point the likelihood that some of them will head our way or be launched against our friends, like Israel increases greatly. Once a weapon is launched even by accident, there will almost certainly be many more launched by various people at various targets.

Anyone lauching weapons at anyone else of the nuclear variety scares the hell out of me, no matter who is launching them at whom. Even my worst enemies launching at each other (say Iran and NK) is a tragic turn of events.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

BTW Grif did Belarus, Finland, and Sweden join NATO when I wasn't looking?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Grifman »

Rip wrote:BTW Grif did Belarus, Finland, and Sweden join NATO when I wasn't looking?
Sweden and Finland aren't Eastern Europe, they're Scandinavia. And Belarus isn't relevant because they've been in Russia's back pocket for years.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Grifman »

Rip wrote:
Grifman wrote:And I'm still waiting on Supreme Commander Rip to tell me what realistic military actions he wants the US to take see he seems to intent on getting into a shooting war.
I wouldn't take any immediate actions. I would however have moved assets and deployed carriers and submarines to the area and made a VERY big point of announcing such ina very public manner.

I would have not said I was considering not going to the summit in Sochi, I would have said point blank I wsn't going and was srongly considering apush to expel Russia from the G8.

I would have announced that he Czech missle defense was back on.

I would have said that we were going to ramp up support for Syrian rebels substantially right away and blockade Russian ships from Syrai until Russian forces were withdrawn from Ukraine.

I would have announced the agreement with Iran was suspended until this was resolved and I was streamlining additional sanctions against Iran and asking congress to expedite sanctions against Russia that would be ready for me to sign if forces were not withdrawn.

I would have signed an executive action freezing all Russian assets as well as the personal assets of all Russian goverment personnel and those of all public and private Russian entities.

I would have done a couple of these right off and every day that I didn't get an indication that Russia was going to withdraw the forces I would do another.

Then there would be zero doubt as to what the cost of interferring in Ukraine would be and there would hang the possibility of actual military action. Which of course is the area we would be most limited because our capability to react militarily right now is extremely limited.
I actually agree with many of these but militarily you're just posturing. You've been barking a lot about military action but now I see that that's all it is, just barking.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Grifman wrote:
Rip wrote:BTW Grif did Belarus, Finland, and Sweden join NATO when I wasn't looking?
Sweden and Finland aren't Eastern Europe, they're Scandinavia. And Belarus isn't relevant because they've been in Russia's back pocket for years.
Whatever they are countries very near Russia that would have every reason to seek nuclear weapons to protect themselves since obviously no one else will. Many countries in europe oscillate between referring to themselves as eastern, central, etc europe. That is how Georgia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan manage to get listed as potential and or existing NATO members. My point wasn't intended to litterly be limited to eastern europe but more anyone in the near vicinity of Russia. Without nuclear weapons they kney know that Russia may come knocking and the US and western europe will likely not give much of a crap beyond hollow rhetoric.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

This one REALLY makes me laugh. Putin actually took stronger immediate action against the US just for Obama's hollow threat/comments. He has recalled his ambassador, shit we didn't even care to object strongly enough to do that. :idea:
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman »

Rip wrote:
Grifman wrote:And I'm still waiting on Supreme Commander Rip to tell me what realistic military actions he wants the US to take see he seems to intent on getting into a shooting war.
I wouldn't take any immediate actions. I would however have moved assets and deployed carriers and submarines to the area and made a VERY big point of announcing such ina very public manner.
And when Putin calls that bluff, we launch strikes on Russia over a Crimea that wants to join Russia anyway?

The rest of your list is diplomatic and economic pressure, probably much of which we'll be trying now. You seem incensed that we didn't do these things preemptively, but preemption would have been meaningless a week ago.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Holman wrote:
Rip wrote:
Grifman wrote:And I'm still waiting on Supreme Commander Rip to tell me what realistic military actions he wants the US to take see he seems to intent on getting into a shooting war.
I wouldn't take any immediate actions. I would however have moved assets and deployed carriers and submarines to the area and made a VERY big point of announcing such ina very public manner.
And when Putin calls that bluff, we launch strikes on Russia over a Crimea that wants to join Russia anyway?

The rest of your list is diplomatic and economic pressure, probably much of which we'll be trying now. You seem incensed that we didn't do these things preemptively, but preemption would have been meaningless a week ago.
No I am incensed that we didn't go through the motions to make sure they knew we could do those things and left them not knowing if we would or not. As it were we left them KNOWING we planned on doing nothing. As I noted we didn't even recall an ambassador which Putin managed to do in a day, simply because Obama said something he didn't like. One nice little extra spit into Obama's face in a VERY public manner.

Face it, Obama is being made to look like the kid running down the raod crying for his momma after Putin stole his shoes and gave him a wedgie. Putin looking strong and defiant, Obama looking like a snotty nosed little crybaby who will come crawling back in a few hours begging for his shoes only to get another wedgie.
The Federation Council also recommended that the Kremlin recall the Russian ambassador to the United States to underscore objections to remarks made by President Obama on Friday.


http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/l ... z2ujkay15F

Then on top of that, Russia their Parliament, and President are out the managing the situation. Taking action. Working the international press. Basically getting in front of it.

Where are our leaders. Golfing? Playing basketball? Campaigning? Who the hell knows, but there is no indication that this is important to them in even the slightest bit.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Several Baltic states call for NATO article IV consultations.

They are clearly worried about their own exposure and I would guess concerned about our response or lack thereof. Don't blame them.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman »

Rip wrote: Then on top of that, Russia their Parliament, and President are out the managing the situation. Taking action. Working the international press. Basically getting in front of it.
If by "getting in front of it" you mean "incensing the world against them and persuading no one that this is anything but an aggressive and opportunistic power grab," then yes, sure.
Where are our leaders. Golfing? Playing basketball? Campaigning? Who the hell knows, but there is no indication that this is important to them in even the slightest bit.
This really sounds like Obama Derangement Syndrome more than anything else.

Do you really think Obama is playing golf rather than deep in whatever strategy meetings a POTUS enters at times like these? Would GWB have been giving fireside chats right now rather than attending the same meetings? Maybe he would have been personally flying the first B-1 over Moscow?

And do you think that under these circumstances--Ukraine suddenly splintering, with a high risk of the Crimea and its absolutely vital naval bases tumbling into Europe's lap--Putin wouldn't have made these same moves with Sarah Palin in office?
Several Baltic states call for NATO article IV consultations.

They are clearly worried about their own exposure and I would guess concerned about our response or lack thereof. Don't blame them.
They are very clearly joining ranks and acting like NATO, just as they are supposed to do. Why attribute Fox-News levels of ODS to them?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Apollo »

Rip wrote:...If germany wants Poland it will get Poland. It is not in any nations national interest to trigger WW2 to preserve Polands independence.

That worked out real well.
This is a ridiculous comparison, but I'll bite: Yes, it was not in any nation's national interest to trigger WWII to preserve Poland's independence, IMHO. However, Britain and France felt differently and allied themselves with Poland to prevent further German expansion, so they basically had to start the war. This war would have likely ended both the UK and France's independence if not for Hitler turning on his Russian "ally"* and the Japanese attacking the US, two events that were impossible to foresee in 1939. Though we look at the war very differently now with the aid of hindsight, it is pretty clear that Britain and France got in over their heads starting WWII and if not for huge errors by the Axis powers, both of them might be part of a German empire today.

If the US was allied with the Ukraine I'd be willing to go to war to preserve their independence. However, neither the US nor any part of the EU is allied with the Ukraine so your example is not valid.

* Yes, I realize that the Soviet Union was not an ally of Germany, but they had a non-aggression treaty and were working together to divide parts of Eastern Europe between them.

Edit for clarity.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Holman wrote:
Rip wrote: Then on top of that, Russia their Parliament, and President are out the managing the situation. Taking action. Working the international press. Basically getting in front of it.
If by "getting in front of it" you mean "incensing the world against them and persuading no one that this is anything but an aggressive and opportunistic power grab," then yes, sure.
Where are our leaders. Golfing? Playing basketball? Campaigning? Who the hell knows, but there is no indication that this is important to them in even the slightest bit.
This really sounds like Obama Derangement Syndrome more than anything else.

Do you really think Obama is playing golf rather than deep in whatever strategy meetings a POTUS enters at times like these? Would GWB have been giving fireside chats right now rather than attending the same meetings? Maybe he would have been personally flying the first B-1 over Moscow?

And do you think that under these circumstances--Ukraine suddenly splintering, with a high risk of the Crimea and its absolutely vital naval bases tumbling into Europe's lap--Putin wouldn't have made these same moves with Sarah Palin in office?
Several Baltic states call for NATO article IV consultations.

They are clearly worried about their own exposure and I would guess concerned about our response or lack thereof. Don't blame them.
They are very clearly joining ranks and acting like NATO, just as they are supposed to do. Why attribute Fox-News levels of ODS to them?
No, I actually know what he is doing. they are having National Security meetings at the WH. Just pointing out that the usual PR machine seems to be at a loss as far as setting the table and making sure everyone knows that he is (hopefully) glued into getting assesed on the situation and preparing action/reaction etc.

No at this point there is nothing anyone sitting in the WH could do to actually prevent whatever Russia is going to do, but we didn't get here overnight. In fact there is evidence that Russia has been planning/gearing up for a lot of this for sometime. Those forces setting up roadblocks and taking control of strategic targets did so with precision that doesn't just happen over a few hours or even days. There was a plan for this and it was just activated whithin the last few days.

I am a not attributing anything from the Baltic states other than they are now concerned about whether this will spread to them and if so want to make sure what support they can expect from NATO and the protocols, time schedules, etc. etc. would be. They are clearly concerned however. BTW not watched Foxnews in some time and they as far as I have seen aren't even hardly covering this. About the only place TV wise to get ongoing extensive coverage is CNN as usual. So any attempt to blame any opinion, position, reaction I have on Fox is just being stupid. Actually much of my information is coming from UK and eastern (Poland/Czech/Baltic) news sources I check as CNN runs on the TV in the background.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Apollo wrote:
Rip wrote:...If germany wants Poland it will get Poland. It is not in any nations national interest to trigger WW2 to preserve Polands independence.

That worked out real well.
This is a ridiculous comparison, but I'll bite: Yes, it was not in any nation's national interest to trigger WWII to preserve Poland's independence, IMHO. However, Britain and France felt differently and allied themselves with Poland to prevent further German expansion, so they basically had to start the war. This war would have likely ended both the UK and France's independence if not for Hitler turning on his Russian "ally"* and the Japanese attacking the US, two events that were impossible to foresee in 1939. Though we look at the war very differently now with the aid of hindsight, it is pretty clear that Britain and France got in over their heads starting WWII and if not for huge errors by the Axis powers, both of them might be part of a German empire today.

If the US was allied with the Ukraine I'd be willing to go to war to preserve their independence. However, neither the US nor any part of the EU is allied with the Ukraine so your example is not valid.

* Yes, I realize that the Soviet Union was not an ally of Germany, but they had a non-aggression treaty and were working together to divide parts of Eastern Europe between them.

Edit for clarity.
The point was that assuming an aggression against one state will be just that and that if it doesn't concern you then no need to be concerned is foolish. The proverbial first they came for _ and I did nothing, then they came for __ and I did nothing, you see where I am going.

To assume it is just about Ukraine and you can just give it to them and then tuck yourself in bed safe and sound is foolish and has lead to many nations having to face a much more dangerous and embolden enemy later because they were foolish enough to think it would never matter to them.

If Russia can coast in and take one piece of cake and see little to no cost you can rest assured they will be back for another, then another, and so on.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by JSHAW »

These are just pictures of 2 leaders, tell me what you see here.
Why do I get the feeling that one of these likes his miltary might more than the other?

See the one with the hat? Crimson Tide, Marko Ramius, Crimson Tide baby, Black Sea Fleet. Putin's just waiting for a chance to say
lines from the movie. :lol:

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Last edited by JSHAW on Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine

Post by RunningMn9 »

Does anyone genuinely think that Finland is concerned that they are going to be annexed by Russia?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman »

JSHAW wrote:These are just pictures of 2 leaders, tell me what you see here.
Why do I get the feeling that one of these likes his miltary might more than the other?
Drones mean never having to get your pecs sweaty.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that Putin drinks *way* more than Obama. And he eats more ice cream, too, probably straight off the ample haunches of Gorky Park hookers.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Grifman »

RunningMn9 wrote:Does anyone genuinely think that Finland is concerned that they are going to be annexed by Russia?
No and the same with Sweden. Rip is just being Rip.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Grifman »

Rip wrote:No I am incensed that we didn't go through the motions to make sure they knew we could do those things and left them not knowing if we would or not.
No, as any number of veteran foreign affairs observers have pointed out, you don't tie your hands diplomatically by saying what you are and are not going to do.
As it were we left them KNOWING we planned on doing nothing.
That's silly. Obviously the US is going to do "something". It may not be what you want it to be, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be business as usual with Putin from here on out.
As I noted we didn't even recall an ambassador which Putin managed to do in a day, simply because Obama said something he didn't like. One nice little extra spit into Obama's face in a VERY public manner.
So the Russians look like petulant children while the Americans look like the adults in the room. How is that bad exactly?
Face it, Obama is being made to look like the kid running down the raod crying for his momma after Putin stole his shoes and gave him a wedgie. Putin looking strong and defiant, Obama looking like a snotty nosed little crybaby who will come crawling back in a few hours begging for his shoes only to get another wedgie.
Geez, now you're being asinine. The US was trying to keep things calm, trying to talk the Russian down. That obviously isn't going to work now, you ought to give the President some time to talk with his advisors and make the right proportionate responses. There's no need to go off half cocked like you would - Obama actually has people's lives in his hands, unlike you.

Now if his response is weak kneed, I'll gladly jump on his butt with you. But you don't do something like this half cocked. We unlike the Russians, actually need to talk with our allies. A concerted combined response will be much stronger than just the US going it alone. Surely you can understand that?
Then on top of that, Russia their Parliament, and President are out the managing the situation. Taking action. Working the international press. Basically getting in front of it.

Where are our leaders. Golfing? Playing basketball? Campaigning? Who the hell knows, but there is no indication that this is important to them in even the slightest bit.
Do you really think the international press is buying what Putin is selling? As for this not being important to them, that's just plain stupid. Just because Obama is jumping like you want him to. This is silly.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

I stand corrected there was a national security team meeting but Obama wasn't there. obviously something more important to do.

Interesting just heard CNN reporter repeat 3 of the items off my list as suggested actions.

Sanctions asset seizure under some Human Rights policy that already exists.
Accelerate NATO for Georgia/Ukraine
Missile defense for Czech

So yea I am an idiot along with McCain. I will join him in the idiot squad over you guys, sorry.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman »

Rip wrote:I stand corrected there was a national security team meeting but Obama wasn't there. obviously something more important to do.
I'm sure it was something like golf and nothing at all like teleconferencing with Cameron, Merkel, and other NATO leaders.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Holman wrote:
Rip wrote:I stand corrected there was a national security team meeting but Obama wasn't there. obviously something more important to do.
I'm sure it was something like golf and nothing at all like teleconferencing with Cameron, Merkel, and other NATO leaders.
No idea, but you would think if that were the case the PR machine would be emphasizing that rather than deflecting all questions about where he was and what he was doing.

The talking heads on CNN were postulating that it was intentional to avoid the impression that he was somehow forced to be caged in the situation room to monitor every thing that Putin did or was up to. As they said there was a desire to downplay it being some type of Rocky IV. My guess a desire to downplay the situation as some type of Obama versus Putin thing.

It was nice to hear that Biden attended the meeting via video-conference. Which is probably good especially if he is following Biden's advice on the situation rather than his campaign managing image protectors that usually keep Biden at bay.

The public security council meeting was rather interesting but not much for any real information of note. Funny to hear Russia after speaking to the authorization to use force in Ukraine, pointing out not against Ukraine. They actually said he hadn't decided whether to actually use them yet, which was hilarious given everyone in the world knows there are already thousands of troops in Crimea.

US seemed to be pushing for UN monitors and such and went through pains to point out that would include Russia allowing them to ensure their interests were protected.

edit: Just heard Obama spent 90 minutes today on the phone with Putin.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

U.S. Senator John McCain (Republican of Arizona), who is one of the better informed members of Congress about Ukraine's political crisis, today released the following statement on Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine:

“I am deeply concerned that Russia’s ongoing military intervention in Crimea may soon expand to eastern Ukraine.

Yesterday, President Barack Obama said that Russia would face ‘costs’ if it intervened militarily in Ukraine.

"It is now essential for the president to articulate exactly what those costs will be and to take steps urgently to impose them.

"Russia’s use of force in Ukraine is unfolding in clear violation of Russia’s own commitments to respect Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, including under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

"None of us should be under any illusion about what Russia President Vladimir Putin is capable of doing in Ukraine, especially now that he has requested, and the Russian Duma has approved, the deployment of Russian troops, not just in Crimea but in the country of Ukraine.

Every moment that the United States and our allies fail to respond sends the signal to President Putin that he can be even more ambitious and aggressive in his military intervention in Ukraine.

"There is a range of serious options at our disposal at this time without the use of military force. I call on President Obama to rally our European and NATO allies to make clear what costs Russia will face for its aggression and to impose those consequences without further delay."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 38068.html
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Re: Ukraine

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On the military front, McCain believes Putin needs to face a show of U.S. strength. Putin is “convinced that the United States is weak and there’ll be no significant retaliation of his occupation of the Crimea and possibly eastern Ukraine,” he says. He wants to see Obama revive the Bush era missile defense plan, which would have placed U.S. missiles in the Czech Republic. He also believes that speeding up Georgia accession to NATO would send a strong message to Putin.
McCain also supports expanding the Magnitsky Act to allow the U.S. to bar certain Russian individuals involved in any incursion in Crimea and Ukraine from getting U.S. visas and doing work with U.S. citizens. That law was passed in 2012 in response to the 2009 death of lawyer Segei Magnitsky in a Moscow prison while he was investigating fraud and corruption involving Russian tax officials.
When I saw him on CNN a short while ago he also said this allowed seizing of assets.
“So, what I’m saying is: ‘Ask not for whom the bell tolls,’” McCain continued with a wink, paraphrasing the famous John Donne line about the interconnectedness and mutual responsibilities of humanity.
http://swampland.time.com/2014/02/28/uk ... in-crimea/

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Combustible Lemur »

What I don't understand is the posturing deal. Even if we did all the stuff Rip suggests, why would that dissuade Russia at all? If the bully across from you threatens that he's going to be mean to you if you keep picking on the little guy. You look him in the face and take the kids lunch anyway. It's not like the bully is going to actually get into a shooting war over the kids lunch. But both parties know that if you were to take his sisters lunch there would be a brawl. The posturing just makes both groups look like children.
I agree with a lot of the actions be g suggested to be taken but I'm appalled at how much people feel there is a PR campaign to be had.

Sent courtesy of the Galaxy.... note2.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Combustible Lemur wrote:What I don't understand is the posturing deal. Even if we did all the stuff Rip suggests, why would that dissuade Russia at all? If the bully across from you threatens that he's going to be mean to you if you keep picking on the little guy. You look him in the face and take the kids lunch anyway. It's not like the bully is going to actually get into a shooting war over the kids lunch. But both parties know that if you were to take his sisters lunch there would be a brawl. The posturing just makes both groups look like children.
I agree with a lot of the actions be g suggested to be taken but I'm appalled at how much people feel there is a PR campaign to be had.

Sent courtesy of the Galaxy.... note2.
Doesn't necessarily dissuade him if that is what he has decided to do, but does exact a price for shoosing to do it versus doing nothing which doesn't.

There is a PR campaign, the world is watching. All that jaw jacking at the UN isn't just to argue with each other. They are putting on a show and making a case to the world. People decide to be your friend or not a lot of time based on how they see these things play out and see whther they can count on you to give your best effort in defending their interests based on how you have defended others.

It matters a great deal for relations looking forward in the future irregardless of how this plays out. Foreign policy is probably 50% image as is all things political.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Sales is so foreign to me, act or don't act. But leave the bullshit in the outhouse.

Sent courtesy of the Galaxy.... note2.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Combustible Lemur »

While your silly pics are silly. That is exactly what I'm talking about. We act like international resource management is the WWE. We demand that Obama do stuff except, that the country doesn't want him to and there seems to be little direct concrete value to actual violence. Putin sees a direct physical gain to imperial encroachment. Some how we put a character value on the two men as if it were an actual pissing contest. Either there is Strategic value in shooting it out in Ukraine or there isn't. The rest is just noise.

But that's why I'm not a politician.


We culturally exalt our stoic action only when necessary heroes but what we want publicly is Stallone and bomb first ask questions later action heroes.

Vice bad, violence first good. Yay puritans.
Sent courtesy of the Galaxy.... note2.
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Rip
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

They are silly pics, geez take a deep breath already. They are friggin hilarious.

For the record I don't think Obama is doing a horrible job on this at the moment, but it is early, he seems to be moving more towards at least some of the actions I have suggested. He has just gotten duped a little and is now in a very tough spot. I have no doubt his intentions were good, just turned out to be a little naive. He could certainly be handling it much worse.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by NickAragua »

I'll say one thing, Crimea is a fantastic vacation spot (or, at least, it was when I was there almost three decades ago). So, I can't really blame the Russian leadership for wanting a piece of that action - if I was Putin and his buddies, I would get pissed if the new Ukrainian government suddenly cut me off from my sweet-ass vacation home.
Black Lives Matter
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Rip wrote:They are silly pics, geez take a deep breath already. They are friggin hilarious.
You misinterpret.

I'm agreeing that they are silly pics, but they do represent an interesting philosophical question.

Edit:
And the last chunk of my previous post makes no sense. Stupid phone keyboard.

Noting that Turn the other cheek only is liked in art. Not foreign policy.

Sent courtesy of the Galaxy.... note2.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Rip wrote:They are silly pics, geez take a deep breath already. They are friggin hilarious.
You misinterpret.

I'm agreeing that they are silly pics, but they do represent an interesting philosophical question.


Sent courtesy of the Galaxy.... note2.
Of course they do, but not like I can post silly shit of anyone else related to the weekend drama. For good or bad this is Obama's game. If we had another person doing much of anything I could post stupid pics of them, but it seems as if everything else has ground to a halt this weekend.

We haven't had a chance for silly Putin related picks since Snowden or Syria I can't recall what the last crisis that made for good silly pics was. Not much to be had over the gay rights issue and such, just not much humor to be found in that stuff or the olympics political squabbling.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

NickAragua wrote:I'll say one thing, Crimea is a fantastic vacation spot (or, at least, it was when I was there almost three decades ago). So, I can't really blame the Russian leadership for wanting a piece of that action - if I was Putin and his buddies, I would get pissed if the new Ukrainian government suddenly cut me off from my sweet-ass vacation home.
Yea, the Black Sea resorts have long been a favorite of the former soviet areas, especially the people that can't afford to vacation in the med. Also used to run into a few Russian in Eastern Africa in places like Mombassa.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by JSHAW »

Rip wrote:They are silly pics, geez take a deep breath already. They are friggin hilarious.

For the record I don't think Obama is doing a horrible job on this at the moment, but it is early, he seems to be moving more towards at least some of the actions I have suggested. He has just gotten duped a little and is now in a very tough spot. I have no doubt his intentions were good, just turned out to be a little naive. He could certainly be handling it much worse.
They are silly pics, and they are also images of both men that are out there. I didn't create them, pose them, take them.
I did post them. They're there, deal with it. :lol:

Same way Bill Maher throws out silly pics and makes comments on his HBO show, welcome to
the OO version of political commentary through silly pics.

For the record, in my posts in this thread I don't think in any way shape or form I've stated that Obama should go "Stallone"
on Putin's bad ass. I really don't want to reread over all the other posts but I'm gonna hazard a guess that no other person has
suggested Obama or Putin take matters to the "action hero" level.

It was mentioned earlier that Obama wasn't there IN the national security briefing. From reports I've read he was on the phone with Putin for 90 minutes, and the heads of state from Canada & France. I'd say that's enough reason not to be present in the national security briefing, the man was doing his job.

I'm not a supporter of Obama, but I'll call it like I see it. He was working the phones today on the job.

What I expect of the POTUS, is that he'll do his job to the best of his abilities. As an American, I don't have to like him, but I think
I can and should support him in times of crisis IF I think he's doing what's best for the country.

I vote Republican. That doesn't mean I'm going to be critical of the POTUS for everything he does right or wrong
just because I vote Republican. I feel it's my responsibility to be fair towards the POTUS. (notice I didn't say fair and balanced :lol: )

If Obama say's there's gonna be costs for Putin's incursion into the Ukraine, then he damn well better make sure he sticks to his word
and see's that the costs are added up and paid. They can't be empty words, with no actions attached to them. They have to mean
something.

If the POTUS has the backbone to stand up to Putin then he damn well better not be bluffing. Putin's way too intelligent, in my opinion
to fall for a bluff.

If Putin doesn't give a damn what costs there are to be paid he's gonna do what he wants to do, with this situation.

For all we know he already has his game plan laid out and it's just a matter of time before more pieces in the game get moved
around the board.

Could we say this is the REAL game of RISK being played out?

RIP, if you took political science, you get an A+ for the day's work on the subject. :clap:
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Grifman »

Rip wrote:I stand corrected there was a national security team meeting but Obama wasn't there. obviously something more important to do.

Interesting just heard CNN reporter repeat 3 of the items off my list as suggested actions.

Sanctions asset seizure under some Human Rights policy that already exists.
Accelerate NATO for Georgia/Ukraine
Missile defense for Czech

So yea I am an idiot along with McCain. I will join him in the idiot squad over you guys, sorry.
No, I agree with everyone of those suggestion so we are both idiots. And what's more, I also agree with Mark Rubio's recommendations on Politico today.) It's more about your scaremongering and military blustering than anything else. You're losing style points :)
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Combustible Lemur »

JSHAW articulated what I was flailing at.

Sent courtesy of the Galaxy.... note2.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Post-revolutionary Ukraine is in bad shape. Its economy is wrecked. Government institutions broke down completely after the Yanukovych government disappeared overnight. Corruption and criminality, Ukraine’s twin scourges, remain basically intact. Thanks to Russia’s unexpected moves in Crimea, the West will now have to put Humpty Dumpty back together on its own. These tasks demand that the president designate a senior point-person for coordinating Ukraine policy in all its complexity. Deputy Secretary of State William Burns, one of America’s ablest diplomats and an old Russia hand, is the obvious choice.
The break in the West’s relations with Russia is bound to be deep and lasting. The G-8 will be its first casualty with the Western powers likely to reconstitute the G-7 in its original form as a direct rebuff to Putin. Other important international mechanisms —the U.N. Security Council, ad hoc diplomatic efforts on Syria, the P5+1 process on Iran, the Six-Party talks on North Korea, and so on—will be filled with renewed acrimony and dysfunction. Some may break down entirely. Inevitably, there will be congressional calls for sanctions against Russia, which the White House will be hard-pressed to resist no matter how much it may want to preserve the shreds of cooperation with Russia on Iran, Syria or Afghanistan. The West and Russia are in uncharted waters.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... xK2UvldWSo

Well written insightful article on where we stand at the moment.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip »

Troops in Ukraine likely identified.
According to one of the participants in the operation, officers and contractors of the 76th Shock Troops Division have been re-locating to Ukrainian territory since last week. By early this week, there were already more than 100 soldiers. The last of the famous detachments was sent on Thursday, 27 February. They are fully armed, with 5,000 rounds of ammunition per person. There is one truck per 10 soldiers, and they are completely loaded with weapons including flame-throwers. Upon arrival on the territory of Ukraine, they did not report their geographical locations to people, and they were assigned local tasks. Most likely, this was Sevastopol and Simferopol. Emergency troops remain in Yysk, and did not take part in the operation. The barracks of the 76th Storm Troops Division on Margelova Street in Pskov is practically empty
http://www.infowars.com/officers-of-76t ... n-ukraine/
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Re: Ukraine

Post by RLMullen »

Holman wrote: Do you really think Obama is playing golf rather than deep in whatever strategy meetings a POTUS enters at times like these?
Figuratively speaking, yes! You don't need insiders' knowledge to see that Obama doesn't put foreign and military policy at the top of his priorities. If you want insiders' knowledge simply read Robert Gates' book.
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