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Ukraine

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hepcat
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Re: Ukraine

Post by hepcat » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:47 pm

But Obama did all those things while he was Obama.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
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Alefroth
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Alefroth » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:04 am

Which is like multiplying by zero.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:48 am

Grifman wrote:
Rip wrote:What I would do is bolster our military and sink lots of effort and money into it
Our military already outclasses that of the Russians.
Yet they grab Crimea and makes moves on Ukraine and all I hear is we are unable to do anything about it militarily. So I guess it doesn't outclass it by enough.
and cyber weapons and defense systems.
We are already doing these things.
The we better do it better/faster if we can't provide technical proof of hack sources or prevent them.
I would begin infiltrating their C3 systems with reckless abandon
And how do you know that we aren't already doing this?
Because if we did, we would know about thing like Crimea going down before they happen.
and I would kick some ass on their friends like Iran and Syria.
Short of going to war with them, what exactly do you propose?
If war was necessary then that, but you would find a lot of people backing down when they knew you actually would/might. Just ask Saddam. If he had actually thought the US would invade he would have backed down and the Gulf war would have been averted.
Some of those stern words that have been so effective for Obama?
Impact of sanctions on Russia:

http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2015/Ru ... /index.htm

NATO response to Russia:

Main elements of the Readiness Action Plan
Deploy four multinational battalions to Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland
Enlarge the existing NATO Response Force from 13,000 to 40,000 troops
Create a new very high readiness force (VJTF) of around 5,000 troops
Appointing a country, drawn from a pool of seven nations, to lead this force
Significant increase in size and number of exercises
Pre-position equipment in Baltics and Eastern Europe
Establish small headquarters in Baltic and eastern European states
Speed up the decision-making for the Response force
That's a lot of do nothing.
Which has accomplished nothing. Stacking your troops that everyone knows you have no intention of using for anything other than defense is just strategic masturbation.

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Max Peck
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:34 am

Your alt-strategic alt-insight is alt-persuasive.
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
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Grifman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Grifman » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:52 am

Rip wrote:Yet they grab Crimea and makes moves on Ukraine and all I hear is we are unable to do anything about it militarily. So I guess it doesn't outclass it by enough.
So you are proposing we go to war over this? If not, then your comment is irrelevant.
The we better do it better/faster if we can't provide technical proof of hack sources or prevent them.
How do you know we don't have technical proof? Are you privy to the Senate/House intelligence briefings? The senators and house members who have seen the evidence seem very convinced.
Because if we did, we would know about thing like Crimea going down before they happen.
False. Just because you hack into systems doesn't mean you have access to everything. And we were talking about a response TO the invasion of Crimea, duh. That means AFTER. So how could we know about the invasion if our response to that invasion is hacking into their systems to learn of that invasion. Do you think about what you actually write? :)
If war was necessary then that, but you would find a lot of people backing down when they knew you actually would/might. Just ask Saddam. If he had actually thought the US would invade he would have backed down and the Gulf war would have been averted.
That's not really a response. What do you mean when you say we should "kick some ass on their allies"? Do you want two more wars in addition to the one you want us to launch in the Ukraine?
Which has accomplished nothing. Stacking your troops that everyone knows you have no intention of using for anything other than defense is just strategic masturbation.
Actually, it sends a message to the Russians that an invasion of the Baltic states would automatically involve the NATO units of other countries. The Baltics are a definite concern because they have Russian minorities that could be used as a pretext for actions similar to Ukraine/Crimea.

And for the record, NATO is a defensive alliance.

So far, it seems you still have nothing substantive to offer. All bluster, smoke and mirrors.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Defiant
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Defiant » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:08 pm


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Sepiche
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Sepiche » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:32 pm

Huh, weird. I wonder what changed over the last week that might cause Russia to start escalating things... what a conundrum.

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LordMortis
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Re: Ukraine

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:34 pm

Requires a subscription.

What I read this morning that I assume is the same.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukria ... SKBN15E0QS

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El Guapo
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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:52 pm

Sepiche wrote:
Huh, weird. I wonder what changed over the last week that might cause Russia to start escalating things... what a conundrum.
From what I've read (very brief, in passing) it may actually be the Ukraine that's escalating the fighting right now. They have beefed up their military recently (for some reason), and I saw some speculation that they may want to try to secure control of as much territory as they can, for fear that Trump is going to cut a deal with Putin and leave them out in the cold.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Sepiche » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:26 pm

El Guapo wrote:From what I've read (very brief, in passing) it may actually be the Ukraine that's escalating the fighting right now. They have beefed up their military recently (for some reason), and I saw some speculation that they may want to try to secure control of as much territory as they can, for fear that Trump is going to cut a deal with Putin and leave them out in the cold.
First sentence of the story LM linked to:
The number of Ukrainian soldiers killed in an offensive by pro-Russian separatists over the past two days has risen to seven
Everything I've read indicates this is a new offensive launched by the Russian Army Ukrainian Separatists.

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LordMortis
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Re: Ukraine

Post by LordMortis » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:43 pm

Not sure how to twitter link...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... wsrc%5Etfw

Saw this dug up as a response to the escalations after the unrecorded Trump/Putin call coming after Tillerson's approval

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Re: Ukraine

Post by coopasonic » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:13 pm

LordMortis wrote:Not sure how to twitter link...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... wsrc%5Etfw

Saw this dug up as a response to the escalations after the unrecorded Trump/Putin call coming after Tillerson's approval
use the tweet button... and remove the ref_src= stuff apparently
-Coop

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Re: Ukraine

Post by tjg_marantz » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:25 am

No don't. Use mobile users won't see it then, or use both.
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Holman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:30 pm

We have always never been at war with Eurasia:
France's Marine Le Pen insists that there was no invasion of Crimea.

Oh, and she also wants to end sanctions on Moscow.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Max Peck
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:04 pm

Holman wrote:We have always never been at war with Eurasia:
France's Marine Le Pen insists that there was no invasion of Crimea.

Oh, and she also wants to end sanctions on Moscow.
That's not surprising. By all accounts, her party had been relying on loans from a now-shuttered Russian bank for funding. Hmm, can't get domestic bank loans but can borrow Russian money -- why does that sound so familiar? :think:
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
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Max Peck
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 pm

It seems that being a Ukrainian separatist leader is bad for your health. The usual suspects would be the Ukrainian security services, but... :think:
A prominent separatist commander has been killed in eastern Ukraine, four days after another pro-Russian military leader was blown up by a car bomb.

Mikhail Tolstykh, known as Givi, died in his office in an explosion described by rebel authorities in Donetsk as a terrorist attack.

Eastern Ukraine has seen its bloodiest period of clashes since 2015, with at least 35 deaths in little over a week.

Rebels have blamed Ukraine's security services for both bomb attacks.

Oleg Anashschenko, who was de facto defence minister of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People's Republic (LNR), had been driving in Luhansk when his car blew up on Saturday.
Killings of high-profile commanders in Ukraine's Donbass began in May 2015 with the bombing of the charismatic Alexei Mozgovoi. Rank-and-file separatists and local residents reported an increased Russian influence in the area in summer 2015 as Moscow apparently tried to rein in the warlords, some of whom seemingly got out of hand with murder and violence targeting civilians.

The very existence of unruly commanders like Givi bolstered the Ukrainian government's long-standing refusal to negotiate with what it regarded as terrorists. Givi and other warlords who have been killed in the past two years have publicly assaulted prisoners of war and been engaged in what can be classified as war crimes.

While the unruly commanders were dying in car bombings, the leadership of the rebel-controlled parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions came to be dominated by bureaucrats with ties to ousted pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych, a Donbass native, rather than the commanders who led the uprising. Unlike the assassinated warlords, the Donetsk bureaucrats are seen as less extreme and more inclined to bargain with Kiev.
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:43 am

Russia tells White House it will not return Crimea to Ukraine
Russia said on Wednesday it would not hand back Crimea to Ukraine or discuss the matter with foreign partners after the White House said U.S. President Donald Trump expected the annexed Black Sea peninsula to be returned.

Moscow says an overwhelming majority of Crimeans voted to become part of Russia in a 2014 referendum wanting protection from what the Kremlin cast as an illegal coup in Kiev.

Ukraine says the referendum was a sham held at gunpoint after Russian troops illegally annexed the peninsula, that Russia-friendly president Viktor Yanukovych was ousted by people power, and that Moscow should return Crimea.

"We don't give back our own territory. Crimea is territory belonging to the Russian Federation," Maria Zakharova, spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, told a news briefing on Wednesday.

The 2014 annexation prompted the United States and the European Union to impose sanctions on Russia, plunging Western relations with the Kremlin to their worst level since the Cold War.

White House spokesman Sean Spicer said on Tuesday that Trump expected and wanted to get along with Russia, but was expecting Moscow to hand Crimea back.
I'm sure that Trump's current position on Crimea totally wasn't a facile attempt to make a show of not being Putin's life partner. :coffee:
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Holman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:53 am

Tillerson will sort it out. He knows where the bodies are buried.

I mean the oil. He knows where the oil is buried.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Jeff V » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:31 pm

Holman wrote:Tillerson will sort it out. He knows where the bodies are buried.

I mean the oil. He knows where the oil is buried.
Under proper conditions, the bodies will become oil one day.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Paingod » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:12 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Holman wrote:Tillerson will sort it out. He knows where the bodies are buried.

I mean the oil. He knows where the oil is buried.
Under proper conditions, the bodies will become oil one day.
Let's just hope we go for the multi-million year (natural) mode instead of the 6 year (war) mode.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:30 am

Big mouth strikes again.
Foreign Affairs Issue Launch with Former Vice President Joe Biden
Past Event — January 23, 2018 12:30pm EST


...
And so I got Ukraine. And I remember going over, convincing our team, our leaders to—convincing that we should be providing for loan guarantees. And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev. And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t.

So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him. (Laughter.) I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.
CFR
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Pyperkub » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:19 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:30 am
Big mouth strikes again.
Foreign Affairs Issue Launch with Former Vice President Joe Biden
Past Event — January 23, 2018 12:30pm EST


...
And so I got Ukraine. And I remember going over, convincing our team, our leaders to—convincing that we should be providing for loan guarantees. And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev. And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t.

So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him. (Laughter.) I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.
CFR
Big Mouth = Trump not hewing to the anti-corruption status in Ukraine? Not sure what you mean here...
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Re: Ukraine

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:33 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:19 pm


Big Mouth = Trump not hewing to the anti-corruption status in Ukraine? Not sure what you mean here...
Ditto. Not following Big Mouth reference.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Freyland » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:06 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:33 pm
Pyperkub wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:19 pm


Big Mouth = Trump not hewing to the anti-corruption status in Ukraine? Not sure what you mean here...
Ditto. Not following Big Mouth reference.
Add me to the list.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri May 18, 2018 11:46 am

NickAragua wrote:
Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:01 am
This situation looks to be working out for the dolphins.
Foxtrot Alpha
The Ukrainian Navy “combat dolphins” were captured by Russian forces after they invaded Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014, according Russian news site Gazeta.ru, and refused to listen to the special whistles that their Ukrainian handlers had originally used but were now in the hands of the Russian military. And then the unthinkable happened:

“The Russians received these whistles and all the rest of the special property of the corresponding military unit, but trained animals refused to not only interact with the new Russian coaches, but refused food and died some time later,” the official said.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by AWS260 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:05 am

This is a pretty remarkable reconstruction of the violence at the Maidan protests in 2014, created to support the prosecution of security forces involved in the shootings.

From a NY Times article about the project:
a sophisticated multimedia presentation that tries to recreate the deaths of three protesters using three-dimensional laser scans of the streetscape, ballistics analysis and autopsy reports. The combination of so many disparate data sources into a single three-dimensional model has little precedent. The arduous work of timing and placing individual videos was assisted by artificial intelligence, which helped organize and synchronize the enormous quantity of footage. Now assembled on a mini-PC and received as evidence by a Ukrainian criminal court, the reconstruction project could prove crucial in the trial of five police officers who, Ukrainian prosecutors say, are responsible for the killings.
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Max Peck
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:37 pm

Blast kills top Donetsk rebel Zakharchenko
An explosion at a cafe has killed Alexander Zakharchenko, the leader of the Russian-backed separatists in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, sources in the rebel administration there say.

The report was carried by the rebel "Donetsk Republic" news agency DNR.

Ukrainians suspected of being behind the blast were arrested nearby, a rebel security source was quoted as saying.

Russia's foreign ministry says it suspects the Ukrainian government of organising the killing of Zakharchenko.

The heavily armed rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk regions refuse to recognise the Ukrainian government in Kiev.

The rebel and Russian news reports say the separatist "finance minister" Alexander Timofeyev was wounded in the blast at the Separ cafe.

"According to preliminary information, it is unfortunately true. The republic's leader suffered a fatal wound," a senior Donetsk rebel, Vladislav Berdichevsky, told Interfax news agency.
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: Ukraine

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:01 pm

Yeah, I'm not even looking at that part of the world right now. Good luck with all that, Ukraine.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:56 pm

Russia 'fires on and seizes Ukraine ships'
The Ukrainian navy says Russia has opened fire and seized three of its vessels off the coast of the annexed Crimea, in an escalation of tensions near annexed Crimea.

Two gunboats were captured and a tug was forced to stop, a statement said. Two crew members were injured.

Russia is yet to comment on the claims.

It earlier accused Ukraine of illegally entering Russian waters, blocking access to the Sea of Azov with a tanker.
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:22 pm

Seems like a great day for Trump to be bitching at NATO allies!




The large and violent French protests don’t take into account how badly the United States has been treated on Trade by the European Union or on fair and reasonable payments for our GREAT military protection. Both of these topics must be remedied soon.
Europe has to pay their fair share for Military Protection. The European Union, for many years, has taken advantage of us on Trade, and then they don’t live up to their Military commitment through NATO. Things must change fast!
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:24 pm

I'm sure he'll find some way to turn this on the Ukraine.

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