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Ukraine

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GreenGoo
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Re: Ukraine

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:56 am

Scraper wrote: Hell Putin has something crazy like a 75% approval rating in Russia. Explain that one to me, I know Putin destroyed their free press, but come on people can still get on the internet there and see that the stuff he is selling them is bullshit.
See my encounter with a russian phone tech living in Canada. The Ukraine situation is the fault of the US according to him.

He's living in Canada. Has access to the internet and is surrounded by western media sources. Sometimes people believe what they want to believe, and nothing will change that. It takes a special kind of lying to yourself to look at the current situation (well, earlier, when the Ukraine people were protesting, and their Russian puppet leader fled after agreeing to changes) to decide that it's the US's fault.

Not that I'm comparing Putin directly to Hitlier in all aspects, but like Hitler, Putin is giving hope, pride and strength to people that are/were demoralized. When you are a world power, then collapse, and someone gives you hope and leadership (even if he's a tyrant) you WANT to believe.

Shrug.

It's a different mindset over there. Just like Russia will always been an enemy to the US for some in America, the US will always be an enemy of Russia to some russians.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Defiant » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:23 am

Not sure if this is quite the thread to put this in since it's about Russia and not Ukraine, but it shows some of the rising tensions and I didn't want to start a new thread.
Russia tested a ground-launched cruise missile, breaking the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty signed in 1987 during the Cold War, the US said.

A senior US official did not provide further details on the alleged breach, but described it as "very serious".
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:44 am

Defiant wrote:Not sure if this is quite the thread to put this in since it's about Russia and not Ukraine, but it shows some of the rising tensions and I didn't want to start a new thread.
Russia tested a ground-launched cruise missile, breaking the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty signed in 1987 during the Cold War, the US said.

A senior US official did not provide further details on the alleged breach, but described it as "very serious".
link
Yea, and the interesting thing is this wasn't a recent event. This is something they have been arguing with Russia about for over a year. So I think if anything this was a precursor to the real time world events unfolding in Ukraine. Just it wasn't known publicly.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Kraken » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:09 am

Russia makes a good enemy of the old-school uniform-wearing, marching-up-and-down-the-square variety. I'm kind of glad to have them back.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:55 pm

Kraken wrote:Russia makes a good enemy of the old-school uniform-wearing, marching-up-and-down-the-square variety. I'm kind of glad to have them back.
Fingers crossed we get some good video games out of it.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:07 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Kraken wrote:Russia makes a good enemy of the old-school uniform-wearing, marching-up-and-down-the-square variety. I'm kind of glad to have them back.
Fingers crossed we get some good video games out of it.
The next modern Combat Mission title (in development since 2011 or so) is a hypothetical NATO/Russia conflict in Ukraine. Apparently they're rewriting the original backstory because it so closely predicted current events, up to and including a breakaway eastern region.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:43 am

Increased sanctions announced yesterday by the EU and the US.

Our friends just returned from a month-long family vacation in Latvia (mom and dad are Eastern European Studies professors). Just as in Ukraine, there are many ethnic Russians in Latvia, with a good deal of intermarriage and of course a lot of mixed workplaces. Riga is a small world.

Their report is that, while working-class Russians love their Putin, many educated Russians are embarrassed by him. They recognize that a new Cold War will be bad for the Russian economy and Russian prestige in the long run.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by AWS260 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:38 pm

I've found that this blog is a good source for keeping up with developments in Ukraine: http://www.interpretermag.com/category/blog/.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:36 pm

Hundreds of thousands have fled to Russia:
Almost 730,000 people have left Ukraine for Russia this year due to the fighting in eastern Ukraine, UNHCR's [High Commissioner for Refugees - Isg.] European director Vincent Cochetel said on Tuesday.

''That figure implies a far higher exodus than the 168,000 who have fled and applied to Russia's Migration Service. A further 117,000 people are displaced inside Ukraine, a number that is growing by about 1,200 per day,'' he said.

UNHCR stripped out the seasonal figures and numbers for people who would normally have crossed the border in the course of trade or tourism to arrive at the 730,000 figure, Cochetel told a UN news briefing.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Kurth » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:17 am

I debated on whether this should be a separate thread, but I figured the discussion here about Ukraine is intertwined with the current state of popular opinion in Russia.

Anyway, I read this morning about a significant upswing of racially charged posters and demonstrations going on in Russia directed at President Obama. Apparently, the latest is that Russians Mock Obama With Racist Laser Projection On U.S. Embassy In Moscow.

As if the annexation of Crimea and their ongoing activity in Ukraine weren't bad enough, between their stupid embargo of western food imports (who's that really going to hurt?) and this, I'm left feeling that our relations with the Russians have maybe passed the tipping point.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:09 pm

Kurth wrote:I debated on whether this should be a separate thread, but I figured the discussion here about Ukraine is intertwined with the current state of popular opinion in Russia.

Anyway, I read this morning about a significant upswing of racially charged posters and demonstrations going on in Russia directed at President Obama. Apparently, the latest is that Russians Mock Obama With Racist Laser Projection On U.S. Embassy In Moscow.

As if the annexation of Crimea and their ongoing activity in Ukraine weren't bad enough, between their stupid embargo of western food imports (who's that really going to hurt?) and this, I'm left feeling that our relations with the Russians have maybe passed the tipping point.
While the US imports 13% of the EU food exports, Russia imports 10%. It's not negligible. I still hope it hurts Russia more than western economies. Preventing air traffic from flying in Russian air space is a pretty big deal as well. I actually hope this will get the EU off it's butt and start pushing hard. This might be the trigger those on the fence need to really go after Russia. Probably dreaming, but maybe.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:13 pm

I feel like I need to do my part.


No more Russian dressing for me.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Kraken » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:54 pm

Rip wrote:
No more Russian dressing for me.
Those big furry hats don't suit you anyway.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:59 am

Kraken wrote:
Rip wrote:
No more Russian dressing for me.
Those big furry hats don't suit you anyway.
As long as I don't have to give up the Beluga Caviar.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:56 am

Rip wrote:
Rip wrote: No more Russian dressing for me.
As long as I don't have to give up the Beluga Caviar.
Frankly, it sounds like you could stand to ease up.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:20 pm

Ukraine: We Destroyed Russian Military Incursion
Russian military vehicles crossed into Ukraine during the night, NATO and Ukraine said Friday, and the Ukrainian president said most of them were quickly destroyed by his troops.

The reported Russian incursion, which Moscow denied, came amid a week of drama over a Russian humanitarian aid mission for people in eastern Ukraine caught in the crossfire of fighting between government troops and pro-Russian separatists.

A statement on President Petro Poroshenko's website said he and British Prime Minister David Cameron spoke Friday by telephone about the reports from Western journalists that Russian APCs were seen crossing into Ukraine near the point where over 200 vehicles in the Russian aid convoy were parked.

"The president said that the given information was trustworthy and confirmed because the majority of the vehicles were destroyed by Ukrainian artillery at night," the presidential statement said.
...
Russia said Russian forces were patrolling the border but denied that any military vehicles had crossed into Ukraine. NATO secretary-general Anders Fogh Rasmussen, however, confirmed that the alliance had observed a Russian "incursion" into Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by TiLT » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:11 am

With a Russian military convoy having crossed into Ukraine from Russia while being observed by independent press, Putin can no longer pretend ignorance and get away with it. European officials have been very damning when talking about this situation. Essentially, we now have non-Ukrainian verification that Russia has been supplying the rebels with weapons and troops, and still are.

This has turned into such an enormous lose-lose proposition for Russia. If they could have turned the clock back, I suspect they would have stayed out from the very beginning.
Insert witty comment here.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by dbt1949 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:59 am

And nobody is going to do anything substantial. Why should Russia stop?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by TiLT » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:23 am

dbt1949 wrote:And nobody is going to do anything substantial. Why should Russia stop?
I don't know what you define as "substantial", but Russia has already seen itself forced to stop imports of lots of stuff from the west, which has caused huge shortages of products the Russians expect to be able to buy. It's not going to make it easier for Putin to keep his power. Russia has isolated itself with these actions, and it's getting more isolated all the time. It's probably too late to stop anything now, as "retreat" isn't in Putin's dictionary, but there are consequences to what has been happening that are affecting Russia far, far more than it's affecting Europe. Russia depends a lot on its imports, and now the citizens there will begin to feel the results of Putin's actions. Russian democracy hardly exists any more, but what little remains can be a real danger to the current regime once Russian daily life becomes affected.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by AWS260 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:08 pm

Putin's actually wildly popular now as a result of his aggressive stance on "border issues" -- much more popular than he was at the beginning of the year. An interesting analysis:
The Moscow Times wrote:The ongoing bloody conflict in Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea have fundamentally changed the way the Russian public perceives the Kremlin's policies, according to Levada Center head Lev Gudkov.

"What has happened is that the state-run media, government institutions and even parts of civil society have adapted to this new situation, this "us-versus-them" anti-Western ideology, and have accepted it as the new norm," he said.

Unlike previous "mobilization spikes" when the government harnessed patriotic sentiment to consolidate its support among society, the Ukraine crisis is on a larger scale and is much more drawn-out.

***

At the same time, the patriotic hysteria cannot be maintained indefinitely, with political analysts predicting that the "Crimea factor" will fade away by the end of the year.

"Putin's rating has reached its ceiling and we can already sense that there are elements of emotional weariness among the public," said Alexander Konovalov, president of the Moscow-based Institute for Strategic Assessment think tank.

"People have not yet realized how steep the cost of annexing Crimea will eventually turn out to be," he said.

Gudkov said that Putin's ratings will return to the "slow erosion" trend, with the state propaganda machine protecting it from any sudden plunges.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by dbt1949 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:52 pm

Substantial is curbing Russia's oil and gas exports. (for example)
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Sepiche » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:16 pm

Interesting BBC article about food costs in Russia:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28855966
Moscow officials say frozen fish prices in the capital's major supermarkets have risen by 6%, milk by 5.3% and an average cheese costs 4.4% more than it did before the 7 August ban took effect.
...
And it is not just Moscow. On the island of Sakhalin, in Russia's far east, officials say the price of chicken thighs has soared 60%. Before the sanctions these were among the cheapest and most popular meat products in Russia.

In the neighbouring Primorye region fish is now reportedly 40% more expensive than just a few weeks ago.
I thought at the time that food sanctions were a pretty bad idea for Russia, mostly because food prices are something that effect everyone and isn't something they can just cover up with propaganda. The nationalist fervor they've whipped up will likely keep a lid on it for a while, but I can't help but think Putin's popularity is going to start taking a hit if they don't find some way of controlling prices over the next few months.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Carpet_pissr » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:48 pm

dbt1949 wrote:And nobody is going to do anything substantial. Why should Russia stop?
See:
TiLT wrote:European officials have been very damning when talking about this situation.
A stern talking...about can be brutal. Obviously not on the level of a stern talking TO, but let's not get crazy...

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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:01 pm

Ukraine Says Russian Forces Lead Major New Offensive

Russia's invading Ukraine, they're just not admitting it.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:07 pm

El Guapo wrote:Ukraine Says Russian Forces Lead Major New Offensive

Russia's invading Ukraine, they're just not admitting it.

:liar:

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:12 pm

:whistle:

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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:34 pm

:naughty:

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:45 pm

:dance:

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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:49 pm

:wub:

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Carpet_pissr » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:02 pm

:animals-chickencatch:

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Re: Ukraine

Post by $iljanus » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:14 am

El Guapo wrote:Ukraine Says Russian Forces Lead Major New Offensive

Russia's invading Ukraine, they're just not admitting it.
From a WaPo article:
A separatist leader in Eastern Ukraine has a secret he’d like to share. There are Russian troops inside Ukraine fighting alongside the rebels and against Ukrainian troops. But wait. They’re really just freelancing while on vacation, according to his comment in a Reuters report.

“Among us are fighting serving [Russian] soldiers, who would rather take their vacation not on a beach but with us, among brothers, who are fighting for their freedom,” Alexander Zakharchenko said in a reported interview with a Russian state television station.
Tanning on beaches are for decadent West.
tl;dr

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Re: Ukraine

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:16 am

Lol?!

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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:52 am

I like to think that Putin and his top advisers get drunk and debate what's the most craziest lie they can say with a straight face. "Oh! How about we need to intervene because the Ukrainian President is a mole person bent on conquering the world?"

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Re: Ukraine

Post by paulbaxter » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:44 pm

El Guapo wrote:I like to think that Putin and his top advisers get drunk and debate what's the most craziest lie they can say with a straight face. "Oh! How about we need to intervene because the Ukrainian President is a mole person bent on conquering the world?"
That's pretty much the most sensible interpretation of Russia's foreign policy I've heard to date.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:19 pm


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Re: Ukraine

Post by dbt1949 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:25 pm

Nato confirms Russians troops on Ukrainian soil. Sound like Putin needs another strong talking to.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Carpet_pissr » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:34 pm

dbt1949 wrote:Nato confirms Russians troops on Ukrainian soil. Sound like Putin needs another strong talking to.
Have any world leaders actually spoken TO him about this, or simply talking around, and loudly/sternly condemning from their own country? I feel I should know the answer to that...

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Defiant » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:33 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:
dbt1949 wrote:Nato confirms Russians troops on Ukrainian soil. Sound like Putin needs another strong talking to.
Have any world leaders actually spoken TO him about this, or simply talking around, and loudly/sternly condemning from their own country? I feel I should know the answer to that...
EU's Barroso condemns Russian incursion in call with Putin

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Rip » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:45 pm

Defiant wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:
dbt1949 wrote:Nato confirms Russians troops on Ukrainian soil. Sound like Putin needs another strong talking to.
Have any world leaders actually spoken TO him about this, or simply talking around, and loudly/sternly condemning from their own country? I feel I should know the answer to that...
EU's Barroso condemns Russian incursion in call with Putin
That'll learn him.

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Re: Ukraine

Post by NickAragua » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:21 pm

Rip wrote:
Defiant wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:
dbt1949 wrote:Nato confirms Russians troops on Ukrainian soil. Sound like Putin needs another strong talking to.
Have any world leaders actually spoken TO him about this, or simply talking around, and loudly/sternly condemning from their own country? I feel I should know the answer to that...
EU's Barroso condemns Russian incursion in call with Putin
That'll learn him.
Well, you have to be somewhat careful when dealing with a petulant child armed with nuclear weapons.

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