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Pictures and Videos for R&P

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gbasden
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by gbasden » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:41 am

hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:19 am


This is not the case. I'm condemning the judge, jury and executioner nature of social media. Which I feel is out of control. I think that message is starting to fade into the background right now.
I totally get what you are saying. But when we once lived in small communities, shame was a powerful tool to reinforce social norms. It can absolutely be used for good or ill, and nobody should be calling in death threats against a teen being a douchewad. But when you have video like this, or the torch wielding mob in Charleston holding that up and saying "this isn't ok" seems like a social good, not ill.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by malchior » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:45 am

hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:29 am
Paingod wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:56 am

I'm oddly fine with these boys getting the proverbial internet switching for this.
I'm not fine with it. The mob mentality of the internet in situations like this disgusts me and is evidence of the worst of humanity. People bitching about bullying and racism become even worse bullies and racists themselves. And if you try to denounce said mob mentality, then you usually end up becoming the target yourself. The hypocrisy is astounding at times.
Totally agree. The doxx-ing of teenagers was ridiculous. I *hate* the mob mentality. I see it everywhere now. Some of my niche hobbies are rampant with purity hunts. Say something unpopular. The mob descends and drives them away.
Videos coming out now show that the hate group House of Israel sought a confrontation with teenagers. The Native American group tried to do what I assumed they thought was the right thing by intervening. The teenage kid who's obviously a smart ass tried to act cool and impress his friends by staring down an elderly man.

CNN reviewed the video and couldn't find any evidence of the teenagers shouting "build a wall". Phillips (the drummer) says he heard it, and I have no reason to doubt him. But it doesn't seem like the kids were all shouting it. Meanwhile, the racist House of Israel group was hurling insults at every ethnic group around them.
I heard it in one of the videos. I'm hunting it down again but you can see them doing a 'tomahawk' chop in a WaPo video here at approximately 2:10 or so..
Was "staring kid" acting like a jackass? Sure. But the kid's getting death threats and the school is talking about expulsion.
Over the top and hard to impart a motive on him - though he did move with him and eventually blocked his path. That doesn't seem all that 'neutral' to me. Best I can say was it seemed odd. FWIW the student released a statement that doesn't square with the videos. It reads like a lawyer wrote it for what it is worth.
edit: LM noted that some of Phillips group was also acting like asshats. I hadn't watched the second video long enough to catch that, so I don't know what really happened. Except that almost everyone acted badly, it seems.
The native group appeared to be almost inviting the kids to participate was my read.
Last edited by malchior on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:46 am

gbasden wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:41 am
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:19 am


This is not the case. I'm condemning the judge, jury and executioner nature of social media. Which I feel is out of control. I think that message is starting to fade into the background right now.
and nobody should be calling in death threats against a teen being a douchewad.
Then we agree on what I consider the most important point.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by The Meal » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:50 am

The kids aren't going to "learn anything" from internet mob justice. Well nothing I would want them to internalize.

Their educational structure certainly could be affected to generate different outcomes though.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:52 am

malchior wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:45 am
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:29 am

I'm not fine with it. The mob mentality of the internet in situations like this disgusts me and is evidence of the worst of humanity. People bitching about bullying and racism become even worse bullies and racists themselves. And if you try to denounce said mob mentality, then you usually end up becoming the target yourself. The hypocrisy is astounding at times.
Some of my niche hobbies are rampant with purity hunts. Say something unpopular. The mob descends and drives them away.
To be fair, your belief that Bronies should be considered a religious group that doesn't have to pay taxes, and that they be allowed to demand piggy back rides from non-members at any time is a bit out there.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by malchior » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:57 am

hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:52 am
malchior wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:45 am
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:29 am

I'm not fine with it. The mob mentality of the internet in situations like this disgusts me and is evidence of the worst of humanity. People bitching about bullying and racism become even worse bullies and racists themselves. And if you try to denounce said mob mentality, then you usually end up becoming the target yourself. The hypocrisy is astounding at times.
Some of my niche hobbies are rampant with purity hunts. Say something unpopular. The mob descends and drives them away.
To be fair, your belief that Bronies should be considered a religious group that doesn't have to pay taxes, and that they be allowed to demand piggy back rides from non-members at any time is a bit out there.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Holman » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:28 pm

hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:19 am
Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:13 am
There were, what, four people in "Black Israel" group?
So the injustice of racism is lessened depending on the number of people yelling it at one time?
Careful there. No one is saying the Black Israel group is anything less than despicably racist.

My point is that whatever was going on between Black Israel and the MAGAshits, it doesn't excuse the intimidation and disrespect shown to the Native American group.
Look, I know this is going to turn into me being seen as a defendant of these kids actions. If it already hasn't.

This is not the case. I'm condemning the judge, jury and executioner nature of social media. Which I feel is out of control. I think that message is starting to fade into the background right now.
Act like an asshole in public, be called an asshole. Such has it ever been.

If it turns out to be complicated in ways that make this assholery excusable, I'm perfectly willing to revisit.

"Judge, jury, and executioner" seems a little much, though. The odds of these kids suffering anything but a stern lecture from the Assistant Principal and a few schoolwide assemblies on racial sensitivity (which they will mock and ignore before and after) are pretty slim.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:03 pm

Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:28 pm
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:19 am
Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:13 am
There were, what, four people in "Black Israel" group?
So the injustice of racism is lessened depending on the number of people yelling it at one time?
Careful there. No one is saying the Black Israel group is anything less than despicably racist.
Look, I know this is going to turn into me being seen as a defendant of these kids actions. If it already hasn't.

This is not the case. I'm condemning the judge, jury and executioner nature of social media. Which I feel is out of control. I think that message is starting to fade into the background right now.
Act like an asshole in public, be called an asshole. Such has it ever been.
The internet and its size,the anonymity it affords so many, and the prevalence of cell phones with cameras, has made any attempt to try and draw a comparison to any situation like this prior to its existence inherently wrong. We're all one bad day away from being fired from our jobs, being threatened with death, and ostracized on a worldwide scale in this day and age. And if anyone tries telling you that they've never done something they've regretted, they're lying.

It's a completely new world in which a farmer in Sweden can now send a teenager a death threat within seconds of seeing one video that was posted without context or any attempt to get the other side's story. The concept of community has been forever changed. Sometimes that's great. But in situations like this, it's not.

So no, it isn't a case of "such has it ever been".
My point is that whatever was going on between Black Israel and the MAGAshits, it doesn't excuse the intimidation and disrespect shown to the Native American group.
I have never said otherwise. What I have said is let's try to help said teenagers learn what made it wrong instead of immediately going to 11 on the outrage meter. And let's try to understand why they acted the way they did before writing them off as lost causes.
"Judge, jury, and executioner" seems a little much, though. The odds of these kids suffering anything but a stern lecture from the Assistant Principal and a few schoolwide assemblies on racial sensitivity (which they will mock and ignore before and after) are pretty slim.
Too late. As has been widely reported since this started, staring kid already received death threats and was reportedly being told he could be expelled, along with a few others that were hunted down by the torch wielding villagers of the internet. Even in this very forum, people were talking about how much they wanted to beat his ass. And new videos are now being released that show a wider view of what happened. The kids still acted like jerks, but they acted less like Hitler Youth and more like dumb kids in those videos.

Bad behavior has always existed on every front. But these days you're less likely to be lectured in an attempt to use it as a teachable moment than you are to be told you should die, or at the very least threatened with violence. What do you think the end result of that is?
Last edited by hepcat on Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by YellowKing » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:13 pm

I blame the school for even allowing these kids to be put into a potentially dangerous situation to begin with.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Jaymann » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:13 pm

I agree with Hep that everything has escalated to the point of insanity in this day and age. Even if I would like to punch the little fokkers in the face.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Paingod » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:14 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:13 pm
I blame the school for even allowing these kids to be put into a potentially dangerous situation to begin with.
I blame their parents for buying them the red armbands hats.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:15 pm

Paingod wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:14 pm
YellowKing wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:13 pm
I blame the school for even allowing these kids to be put into a potentially dangerous situation to begin with.
I blame their parents for buying them the red armbands hats.
I have to admit, that thought crossed my mind too. :wink:
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Holman » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 pm

I trust TPM's Josh Marshall to be a careful and honest observer. Here's his blog post on what he sees in all of the available videos.

tl;dr:
The upshot is that when you see all the videos, not just the one that initially spread like wildfire, you get a lot more context to what led up to that video moment. But it doesn’t greatly change the substance of what you see on the video, which is a middle aged Native American activist/elder beating a ceremonial drum in the face of what appears to be a bemused and cocky teenager while his classmates surrounding them, mostly wearing MAGA caps, jeer and taunt the man with chopping motions. To me, Sandman’s grin looks self-satisfied and arrogant. You can see that part as well as I can. So make your own judgments.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:36 pm

Point me towards the post I made in which I said staring kid wasn't acting like a jackass.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Max Peck » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:50 pm

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Holman » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:04 pm

hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:36 pm
Point me towards the post I made in which I said staring kid wasn't acting like a jackass.
:?:

I never said you said he wasn't.

I see your point (way back) about the dangers of social media mobbery. I agree it's a bad problem.

Of course whatever happens to these kids will be up to the adults in their lives, not to the internet. By the time it does, we will have moved on anyway.

--

Incidental note:

Apparently some conservative types are complaining that "liberal activists" are calling the colleges where some of these kids were accepted and getting their admissions rescinded.

Calling BS on this.

1) I feel sure whatever colleges are involved were already well aware of the situation;
2) There's no way for any "liberal activists" to be aware of any college that any HS senior was admitted to unless the kid went early admission, bragged about it on social media, and has been identified by name;
3) It's a three-day weekend in Academia. No one at any Admissions Office anywhere is answering the phone.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Jaymann » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:08 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:50 pm
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"Dude, this is definitely not kosher!"
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:08 pm

Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:04 pm
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:36 pm
Point me towards the post I made in which I said staring kid wasn't acting like a jackass.
:?:

I never said you said he wasn't.
Coming on the heels of my reply in which I mention the new video, I took your post as assuming I was defending the actions of the kids. My mistake.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:15 pm

Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:04 pm
Incidental note:

Apparently some conservative types are complaining that "liberal activists" are calling the colleges where some of these kids were accepted and getting their admissions rescinded.

Calling BS on this.

1) I feel sure whatever colleges are involved were already well aware of the situation;
2) There's no way for any "liberal activists" to be aware of any college that any HS senior was admitted to unless the kid went early admission, bragged about it on social media, and has been identified by name;
3) It's a three-day weekend in Academia. No one at any Admissions Office anywhere is answering the phone.
I have seen social media imploring people to do so via post of bumpersticker pics, though I have no idea how would have acquired college lists and I don't know that anyone has done anything other than be a stranger to me clicking "share"in a response on someone I do know's wall.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Jaymann » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:04 pm
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:36 pm
Point me towards the post I made in which I said staring kid wasn't acting like a jackass.
:?:

I never said you said he wasn't.

I see your point (way back) about the dangers of social media mobbery. I agree it's a bad problem.

Of course whatever happens to these kids will be up to the adults in their lives, not to the internet. By the time it does, we will have moved on anyway.

--

Incidental note:

Apparently some conservative types are complaining that "liberal activists" are calling the colleges where some of these kids were accepted and getting their admissions rescinded.
Hey, they could always get into Trump University.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:28 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Oh, I don't think these kids deserve to be identified by the mob of the internet, no. But I do think it's fair to laser attention to the school and/or community that set them up for this opportunity.
This seems to match my reaction, when I first saw the initial video and calls to identify them and ruin their lives.

The smarmy douche canoe that was staring down the dude with the drum, fuck that kid. But like, that’s it, fuck him. I don’t need him to be identified and have his life ruined for the crime of being a smarmy asshole teenager.

It’s enough to just go “fuck that kid”.

If that was my kid, my reaction would also be “fuck that kid”, and then holy hell would descend upon him. My kid knows that and acts accordingly.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:47 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:15 pm
Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:04 pm
Incidental note:

Apparently some conservative types are complaining that "liberal activists" are calling the colleges where some of these kids were accepted and getting their admissions rescinded.

Calling BS on this.

1) I feel sure whatever colleges are involved were already well aware of the situation;
2) There's no way for any "liberal activists" to be aware of any college that any HS senior was admitted to unless the kid went early admission, bragged about it on social media, and has been identified by name;
3) It's a three-day weekend in Academia. No one at any Admissions Office anywhere is answering the phone.
I have seen social media imploring people to do so via post of bumpersticker pics, though I have no idea how would have acquired college lists and I don't know that anyone has done anything other than be a stranger to me clicking "share"in a response on someone I do know's wall.
The kid with the Notre Dame hat...way to be aware, brah. :clap:
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by RuperT » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:36 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:28 pm
Smoove_B wrote:Oh, I don't think these kids deserve to be identified by the mob of the internet, no. But I do think it's fair to laser attention to the school and/or community that set them up for this opportunity.
This seems to match my reaction, when I first saw the initial video and calls to identify them and ruin their lives.

The smarmy douche canoe that was staring down the dude with the drum, fuck that kid. But like, that’s it, fuck him. I don’t need him to be identified and have his life ruined for the crime of being a smarmy asshole teenager.

It’s enough to just go “fuck that kid”.

If that was my kid, my reaction would also be “fuck that kid”, and then holy hell would descend upon him. My kid knows that and acts accordingly.
But why not “fuck them all”? I’m surprised you think banging a drum in a stranger’s face is obviously better behavior than staring someone down. Are you not the pants-crapping reclacitrant RM9 of olde?
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:05 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:28 pm

If that was my kid, my reaction would also be “fuck that kid”, and then holy hell would descend upon him. My kid knows that and acts accordingly.
Can someone else point out that Rmn9 sounds like every stereotypical dad in every teenage rebel movie, book or anecdote ever made? Because good lord. I will no longer be shocked to find out that Rmn9 is actually a preacher in a small town named Bormont.

edit: retracted.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:20 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:13 pm
I agree with Hep that everything has escalated to the point of insanity in this day and age. Even if I would like to punch the little fokkers in the face.
30 years ago kids in their first year at university were expelled when the males and females go into it in a war of words over the "no means no" campaign, hanging banners outside their dorm windows which faced each other across a field. The girls made size jokes. The boys made rape jokes. To the boys and girls they were of the same nature, but to the adults, they weren't. And rightly so. The boys were gone. Buh-bye. This was on the tail end of a decade were a LOT of media contained rape jokes as a matter of course, for whatever that's worth. We've talked about movies like Revenge of the Nerds a number of times, for example.

It didn't require an internet posse. Their lives were derailed (and if they had specific, particularly ambition plans, destroyed) because they made the same jokes they had seen on tv and in the movies. Luckily it's 30 years later and no one thinks sexual assault isn't a big deal, so that sort of thing is unlikely to happen again. *sarcasm* if it's unclear.

2 months after this event a man bitter about his struggles to be admitted into engineering college in Quebec would assault a classroom and take everyone hostage, systematically murdering the women in it, blaming them for taking the spots in the class that he felt he deserved. These two separate events were tied together in the media and the schools in question. Whether that was appropriate or not I have no idea. I can't recall exactly but I believe the boys weren't expelled until after the shootings, although that could have just been the slow pace of bureaucratic justice in action.

The age difference between these kids and the kids in my story who were expelled is probably at most one, maybe 2 years. That's not huge even in the teenage range.

My point of this rambling mess is that punishment for saying or doing stupid things is not a new concept, and that internet or no, these guys will receive what they receive. They aren't the victims here. If mob rule (which I've been vocal against even recently) goes too far, then it needs to be called out too. I'm still waiting for evidence of that, however. It seems premature to make them the poster children for social justice overreach when it is unclear yet that they will face any consequences whatsoever for their actions, let alone overly severe consequences.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by YellowKing » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:27 pm

This whole thing makes me feel like a cat chasing a laser pointer. Americans are so easily outraged by whatever new controversy the news focuses on. Remember when we were all upset about the Border Wall? Or before that when we were all upset about the Caravan? Or let's take it way back when we were all upset about Confederate Flags?

I'm not casting blame, I fall into the trap just like everyone else. But it is rather ridiculous when you stop and think about it. We're all being led by the nose.

I'm going to make a conscious effort to stop getting outraged by everything the news tells me to be outraged about. Except for Trump. I won't stop being outraged by whatever he does.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:35 pm

I can understand the complaints of African Americans about the south glamorizing the Civil War through confederate flags and monuments in public locations they're constantly exposed to.

But the one that got me recently was the weatherman who was fired for the slip of the tongue that turned "King" in "Martin Luther King, Jr." into a word associated with racism. It really did sound like an accident. Even Bernice King noted that she thought his firing was going too far.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:41 pm

RuperT wrote:But why not “fuck them all”? I’m surprised you think banging a drum in a stranger’s face is obviously better behavior than staring someone down. Are you not the pants-crapping reclacitrant RM9 of olde?
I was describing my reaction to the initial video, and it was mostly informed by the douchey, punchable face on the kid. After about 10 minutes of thinking “fuck that kid” I realized that I give fuck all about any of this and I stopped caring.

I was more motivated by the “you’d feel differently if it was your kid!” point. I’d fee exactly the same about the kid if it was my kid. Except that I would also be able to take direct action to address the dumb kid in question.

Of course, as Trent alluded to, the chances that my kid would do this is likely not the same chances that this douchey kid would do it. The chances aren’t 0%, because he’s a dumb kid with dumb friends.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:47 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:41 pm
I was more motivated by the “you’d feel differently if it was your kid!” point. I’d fee exactly the same about the kid if it was my kid. Except that I would also be able to take direct action to address the dumb kid in question.

Of course, as Trent alluded to, the chances that my kid would do this is likely not the same chances that this douchey kid would do it. The chances aren’t 0%, because he’s a dumb kid with dumb friends.
Oddly I feel exactly the same way. Other peoples' kids are known to suck. My kids would bring down the holy fist of god on their heads for this behaviour. I would feel much differently, but my feeling would be much more critical and condemning, rather than less critical and more supportive. My earlier comment was about any illusions I have that my kids knowing the holy fist was hovering would prevent them from behaving like idiots.

Since you've acknowledged that as well, I retract my earlier Lithgow-y comment.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:54 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:27 pm
This whole thing makes me feel like a cat chasing a laser pointer. Americans are so easily outraged by whatever new controversy the news focuses on. Remember when we were all upset about the Border Wall? Or before that when we were all upset about the Caravan? Or let's take it way back when we were all upset about Confederate Flags?

I'm not casting blame, I fall into the trap just like everyone else. But it is rather ridiculous when you stop and think about it. We're all being led by the nose.

I'm going to make a conscious effort to stop getting outraged by everything the news tells me to be outraged about. Except for Trump. I won't stop being outraged by whatever he does.
There's a lot to be outraged about. Unsurprising that we are most outraged by the things we are aware of. I agree that not everything is equally outrageous, and try to be proportional in my outrage. I'm not outraged by these kids, but that doesn't mean I don't care about what they did or believe they shouldn't face significant consequences.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Trent Steel » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:31 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:28 pm
Smoove_B wrote:Oh, I don't think these kids deserve to be identified by the mob of the internet, no. But I do think it's fair to laser attention to the school and/or community that set them up for this opportunity.
This seems to match my reaction, when I first saw the initial video and calls to identify them and ruin their lives.

The smarmy douche canoe that was staring down the dude with the drum, fuck that kid. But like, that’s it, fuck him. I don’t need him to be identified and have his life ruined for the crime of being a smarmy asshole teenager.
Yes, but internet's gonna internet. Will this kid's life be ruined? Probably not. Will he have to take some of the slings and arrows for being a douche in the public eye? I'm afraid so. If some other inconveniences happen to pop up in his life because of this, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

On the other hand, the weatherman fired for misspeaking is asinine bullshit and that's where outrage over knee-jerk reactions are more warranted.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Jaymann » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:54 pm

hepcat wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:35 pm
I can understand the complaints of African Americans about the south glamorizing the Civil War through confederate flags and monuments in public locations they're constantly exposed to.

But the one that got me recently was the weatherman who was fired for the slip of the tongue that turned "King" in "Martin Luther King, Jr." into a word associated with racism. It really did sound like an accident. Even Bernice King noted that she thought his firing was going too far.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by YellowKing » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:03 pm

Unfortunately we live in an age where our first inclination is to assume the worst rather than assume the best.

Before the internet, mobs were really difficulty to organize. You had to call people and go door to door, you had to track down pitchforks. By the time you got everything coordinated everybody forgot what they were so mad about.

Now it's just a button click and boom - you've got millions of people stirred into a frenzy.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Moliere » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:25 pm

I Failed the Covington Catholic Test
Next time there’s a viral story, I’ll wait for more facts to emerge.

By Sunday morning, more videos had surfaced, and I started looking for the clip that showed them chanting support for the wall. I couldn’t find it, but I did find a confrontation more complicated than I’d first believed. I saw a few people yelling terrible insults at the students before Phillips approached, which cast an ugly pall over the scene. I saw Phillips approach the students; I had believed him when he said he’d intended his drumming to defuse the tension, but I also wondered how a group of high-school students could have gleaned that when he didn’t articulate it in a language they might understand.

I hated the maga hats some of the kids were wearing, their listless tomahawk chops, the way some of their chanting mocked Phillips’s. But I also saw someone with Phillips yelling at a few of the kids that his people had been here first, that Europeans had stolen their land. While I wouldn’t disagree, the scene was at odds with the reports that Phillips and those with him were attempting to calm a tense situation.

As I watched the longer videos, I began to see the smirking kid in a different light. It seemed to me that a wave of emotions rolled over his face as Phillips approached him: confusion, fear, resolve. He finally, I thought, settled on an expression designed to mimic respect while signaling to his friends that he had this under control. Observing it, I wondered what different reaction I could have reasonably hoped a high-school junior to have in such an unfamiliar and bewildering situation. I came up empty.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by RuperT » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:29 pm

:doh:
Last edited by RuperT on Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:27 pm

Moliere wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:25 pm
I Failed the Covington Catholic Test
Next time there’s a viral story, I’ll wait for more facts to emerge.

By Sunday morning, more videos had surfaced, and I started looking for the clip that showed them chanting support for the wall. I couldn’t find it, but I did find a confrontation more complicated than I’d first believed. I saw a few people yelling terrible insults at the students before Phillips approached, which cast an ugly pall over the scene. I saw Phillips approach the students; I had believed him when he said he’d intended his drumming to defuse the tension, but I also wondered how a group of high-school students could have gleaned that when he didn’t articulate it in a language they might understand.

I hated the maga hats some of the kids were wearing, their listless tomahawk chops, the way some of their chanting mocked Phillips’s. But I also saw someone with Phillips yelling at a few of the kids that his people had been here first, that Europeans had stolen their land. While I wouldn’t disagree, the scene was at odds with the reports that Phillips and those with him were attempting to calm a tense situation.

As I watched the longer videos, I began to see the smirking kid in a different light. It seemed to me that a wave of emotions rolled over his face as Phillips approached him: confusion, fear, resolve. He finally, I thought, settled on an expression designed to mimic respect while signaling to his friends that he had this under control. Observing it, I wondered what different reaction I could have reasonably hoped a high-school junior to have in such an unfamiliar and bewildering situation. I came up empty.
That's exactly me right up until the last paragraph. Sunday morning, someone had to call me out from the night before as not having seen the whole thing and they were entirely right. With regard to the last paragraph, I never get so far as to ascribe intent beyond the look of a weird peacock like arrogant dare to do something because I'm lost at who is watching this mob of kids? Who lets the mass run around engaging whatever that other group is and lets them be so confrontational? What happens if/when something goes beyond words?

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:10 pm

I don’t really see how anyone could see “respect” in staring kid’s demeanor. I saw the exact opposite. :?
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by tjg_marantz » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:21 pm

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:21 pm

I'll just point out that the very nature of protesting, even peaceful marching for a cause, is to put your political voice on display in public. You need to be ready to deal people being angry with you about it. If you're old enough to be there without parents, you better be damn sure you're old enough to handle angry people yelling at you. Which is not to say that you opinion is wrong, or that people yelling at you are yelling at you for reasonable reasons.

You might think a trip to DC with your classmates to lend your voice to the right to life movement is a grand old time, but the abortion debate is one of the most divisive, heated topics in America. Your parents and teachers need to teach you what holding your opinion means in those terms as well, and not just echo chamber that your opinion is right and any other opinion is wrong. Political debate (and marching is participating in it) is not a conflict-less activity. People have been injured and killed for it. Surprise, people can get angry and yelly. I'm sure they had plenty of preparation before the trip in learning how to deal with it, right? How to handle themselves maturely as well as how to keep safe.

All that is a separate observation to the actual facts of what happened here. None of what I'm saying is triggered by specific events that happened/didn't happen. I can't imagine a more irresponsible scenario than convincing high school students to participate in divisive politics without discussing the possibility of personal consequences for participating. Not to scare them, but to prepare them to handle events that may (hell, even likely to) transpire.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:24 pm

tjg_marantz wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:21 pm
This is not how a responsible leader participates in public debate. Just another reminder that you elected a monster and he is tearing your country apart. Intentionally. Which, apparently, is what Rip and others have been waiting for for a long time.

Fantastic.

Both sides!

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