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Pictures and Videos for R&P

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Smoove_B
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Smoove_B » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:54 pm

Moliere wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:25 pm
I Failed the Covington Catholic Test
As I watched the longer videos, I began to see the smirking kid in a different light. It seemed to me that a wave of emotions rolled over his face as Phillips approached him: confusion, fear, resolve. He finally, I thought, settled on an expression designed to mimic respect while signaling to his friends that he had this under control. Observing it, I wondered what different reaction I could have reasonably hoped a high-school junior to have in such an unfamiliar and bewildering situation. I came up empty.
Or perhaps, don't doubt what you saw with your own eyes:
Respectable news organizations and journalists, to whom being seen as balanced, level-headed, and more attuned to context and contingency than the reactive social-media mob is more important that reporting the most accurate version of the truth as best they can tell it, backed off, following Reason’s lead and doing the work of the gibbering masturbators who had risen up in defense of the MAGA teens.

...

Strangely—or perhaps not—these stories either gloss over or fail to mention completely the fact that the white MAGA-clad students, from a pricey Kentucky private school called Covington Catholic, were doing the tomahawk-chop motion and mocking the way Phillips was singing. Neither do they detail the fact that Phillips only walked near the writhing mass of sneering young white men as a way to try and calm them. Relitigating what is as plain to see on the initial videos as it is on the one Soave surfaced or as it is on any others is as exasperating as it is depressing an exercise, but it’s perhaps worth noting that the clearest and most revelatory video—one that has not to my knowledge caused any reconsideration in respectable outlets of what actually happened here—comes from Indian Country Today, a vital news outlet covering Native issues. Here’s unedited video of the minutes leading up to the video of Sandmann smirking in Phillips’ face (embedded video)

...

Then I see Phillips, as he has stated from the beginning that he did, walk up to the teens, in what seems to be an attempt to diffuse the situation. I see them laughing and dancing, red MAGA hats bobbing up and down in glee. I see them yell in Phillips’ face, and I see that he doesn’t falter. I see the smugness of a group secure in its relative power over someone more vulnerable than they are. Nothing about the video showing the offensive language of Black Israelites changes how upsetting it was to see the Covington students, and Sandmann in particular, stare at Phillips with such contempt. I don’t see how you could watch this and think otherwise unless you’re willing to gaslight yourself, and others, in the service of granting undeserved sympathy to the privileged
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by gameoverman » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:48 am

Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 pm
The upshot is that when you see all the videos, not just the one that initially spread like wildfire, you get a lot more context to what led up to that video moment. But it doesn’t greatly change the substance of what you see on the video, which is a middle aged Native American activist/elder beating a ceremonial drum in the face of what appears to be a bemused and cocky teenager while his classmates surrounding them, mostly wearing MAGA caps, jeer and taunt the man with chopping motions. To me, Sandman’s grin looks self-satisfied and arrogant. You can see that part as well as I can. So make your own judgments.
The two videos I saw showed me two groups of people, black/white, sort of facing off in a non physical way. That is, they each were trying to show they weren't intimidated/were standing their ground/etc. Then this guy comes walking into the middle of all that, playing a drum no less. He gets in the teens' faces, which results in what I'd expect if an elder got in a group of teens' faces like that.

The fact he's native American means nothing in this context. It would be like saying he's a veteran, a cop, a Medal of Honor winner, or any other person worthy of respect. Here he's just a man jumping in the middle of a agitated group of people. The fact they are teens automatically means reason and consideration will be in short supply. Groups of ADULTS can't be counted on to behave, who expects that from kids?

The MAGA stuff? Eh, who cares? People in this country have all sorts of political beliefs, including stupid ones. Proof of that sits in the White House. Once again, these are teens, the dumbest of the human age range. Smarter than little kids, but not yet adults, perfect for acting like they know it all. And that's what happened. They have all the smugness teens can have, which is a lot. I know, I was a teen once.

I'm as liberal as they get, more or less, but I see nothing to get outraged about here.

edit: "It does raise an interesting discussion though. When someone is walking around in public with the modern equivalent of a swastika armband, what level of shit should they reasonably expect to receive?"

That's a step I'm not willing to make, at least not at this point in time(MAGA=swastika). Certainly the potential is there, but right now to me it's merely an icon of the Confederate flag waving kind. Worn by teens it's even more meaningless, since they are just trying to be rebels.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:17 am

Drumpf is clearly racist, appeals to racists and apologizes for racists. In that context, a confrontation between MAGA hat wearing teens using the tomahawk chop in a clearly racist way, to a native american, is absolutely relevant. That people hold stupid political opinions doesn't alleviate them from criticism for those opinions, and neither does it here. I might buy your argument if we were talking about a first year college student wearing a Che Guevara tee shirt in a college bar, but here we have real world activity with real world consequences. That they wear the hats is symbolic of their actions, not the "crime" itself. If a white supremacist burns a cross on someone's lawn, the problem isn't that he shaves his head and wears doc marten's. Likewise, the problem isn't the hats, it's the activity of those wearing the hats.

I struggle to see how anyone, liberal or otherwise, that isn't looking for an excuse to let these kids off easy, can look at what happened and come away with the idea that the kids behaved reasonably given the circumstances. Even when their youth is taken into account.

I'm at a loss that that sentiment exists amongst reasonable minded people. Next we'll hear that boys will be boys and it's all good in the hood.

You're welcome to your opinion gameoverman, but it's one that I can't share or even comprehend, really.

On the plus side, neither of our opinions will impact these kids' lives one iota, so in that respect, your opinion (and mine) doesn't matter. Which is a good thing really, as we are barely interested voyeurs in the lives of everyone involved. It would suck if we had any lasting impact, given that in a year we will barely remember that it occurred at all. Now if those directly involved in their lives decide to impact their lives, well, we all reap what we sow.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Skinypupy » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:04 am

gameoverman wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:48 am
edit: "It does raise an interesting discussion though. When someone is walking around in public with the modern equivalent of a swastika armband, what level of shit should they reasonably expect to receive?"

That's a step I'm not willing to make, at least not at this point in time(MAGA=swastika). Certainly the potential is there, but right now to me it's merely an icon of the Confederate flag waving kind. Worn by teens it's even more meaningless, since they are just trying to be rebels.
Thank you. I was actually trying to come up with a less extreme example than a swastika band, but nothing was coming to mind. The Confederate flag is more along the lines of what I was looking for, as it draws similar parallels around assumed racism, jingoism, xenophobia, etc. without the implied genocide element.

I'd probably disagree on the "just trying to be rebels" bit though.
Last edited by Skinypupy on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Chrisoc13 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:05 am

gameoverman wrote:
Holman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 pm
The upshot is that when you see all the videos, not just the one that initially spread like wildfire, you get a lot more context to what led up to that video moment. But it doesn’t greatly change the substance of what you see on the video, which is a middle aged Native American activist/elder beating a ceremonial drum in the face of what appears to be a bemused and cocky teenager while his classmates surrounding them, mostly wearing MAGA caps, jeer and taunt the man with chopping motions. To me, Sandman’s grin looks self-satisfied and arrogant. You can see that part as well as I can. So make your own judgments.
The two videos I saw showed me two groups of people, black/white, sort of facing off in a non physical way. That is, they each were trying to show they weren't intimidated/were standing their ground/etc. Then this guy comes walking into the middle of all that, playing a drum no less. He gets in the teens' faces, which results in what I'd expect if an elder got in a group of teens' faces like that.

The fact he's native American means nothing in this context. It would be like saying he's a veteran, a cop, a Medal of Honor winner, or any other person worthy of respect. Here he's just a man jumping in the middle of a agitated group of people. The fact they are teens automatically means reason and consideration will be in short supply. Groups of ADULTS can't be counted on to behave, who expects that from kids?

The MAGA stuff? Eh, who cares? People in this country have all sorts of political beliefs, including stupid ones. Proof of that sits in the White House. Once again, these are teens, the dumbest of the human age range. Smarter than little kids, but not yet adults, perfect for acting like they know it all. And that's what happened. They have all the smugness teens can have, which is a lot. I know, I was a teen once.

I'm as liberal as they get, more or less, but I see nothing to get outraged about here.

edit: "It does raise an interesting discussion though. When someone is walking around in public with the modern equivalent of a swastika armband, what level of shit should they reasonably expect to receive?"

That's a step I'm not willing to make, at least not at this point in time(MAGA=swastika). Certainly the potential is there, but right now to me it's merely an icon of the Confederate flag waving kind. Worn by teens it's even more meaningless, since they are just trying to be rebels.
This is exactly how I feel in every point. Except the whole liberal as they get thing. But I loathe trump.

That teen is making a punchable face, but watching the full video Phillips is playing the martyr while he isn't actually one. Not sure why he is largely getting a free pass by most of the media. He's at best being disingenuous about what happened. He instigated his contact into a tense situation. To say otherwise is a lie.

Overall... The whole incident is stupid. And I've never agreed with hepcat more then on his discussion about the internet mob... That's just straight scary stuff.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by malchior » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:14 am

What is clear is that this is more evidence that this nation is shattered. There is no capability to learn from anything. Again all evidence is that people just want their tribe to win. Perhaps it is just evidence that we are sliding into an information over-driven dark age because we don't have the framework or tools to process all this competing information.

One thing that stands out is that many people's first reaction to the close up shot wasn't too far off from what the 'neutral' readers saw - to wit that the kids were being disrespectful. Plain old human intelligence still wins out. However, that was overwhelmed by the garbage data. For example, the focus on the nebulous 'Build that wall' chant overcomes that the youths were tomahawk chopping Phillips, making fun of his chant, and earlier imitating a haka when they were verbally sparring with the 'black Isrealites'. I heard 'Build that wall' too but on further re-listens it is only something that vaguely sounds like it and I can't be sure. But on the balance it doesn't matter. None of this really matters.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by malchior » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:21 am

Chrisoc13 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:05 am
That teen is making a punchable face, but watching the full video Phillips is playing the martyr while he isn't actually one. Not sure why he is largely getting a free pass by most of the media. He's at best being disingenuous about what happened. He instigated his contact into a tense situation. To say otherwise is a lie.
He is mostly getting a pass because he has been consistent and came from a 'good place'. I'd agree he is getting a bit of pass for poor judgement walking up like that.

Still, I'd recommend watching any of his interviews if you are on the fence about him because IMO you can tell he is a thoughtful person who tried to do right. He pauses to choose his words carefully while speaking. I also definitely did not get the sense he was trying to peddle a story that was outside his actual experience.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Chrisoc13 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:31 am

malchior wrote:
Chrisoc13 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:05 am
That teen is making a punchable face, but watching the full video Phillips is playing the martyr while he isn't actually one. Not sure why he is largely getting a free pass by most of the media. He's at best being disingenuous about what happened. He instigated his contact into a tense situation. To say otherwise is a lie.
He is mostly getting a pass because he has been consistent and came from a 'good place'. I'd agree he is getting a bit of pass for poor judgement walking up like that.

Still, I'd recommend watching any of his interviews if you are on the fence about him because IMO you can tell he is a thoughtful person who tried to do right. He pauses to choose his words carefully while speaking. I also definitely did not get the sense he was trying to peddle a story that was outside his actual experience.
Sorry to be clear I have watched his interviews and think he meant well. He shouldn't be attacked either. But in the video his actions are far more difficult to discern the intent of them and I think the group of teenagers would have had a very difficult time without the knowledge of hindsight to know he had peaceful intentions especially as his group... Was less than peaceful in their words.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by RunningMn9 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:58 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:47 pm
Oddly I feel exactly the same way. Other peoples' kids are known to suck. My kids would bring down the holy fist of god on their heads for this behaviour. I would feel much differently, but my feeling would be much more critical and condemning, rather than less critical and more supportive. My earlier comment was about any illusions I have that my kids knowing the holy fist was hovering would prevent them from behaving like idiots.

Since you've acknowledged that as well, I retract my earlier Lithgow-y comment.
I know enough teenagers to know that they all suck, just to varying degrees. I've spent enough time with the friend group to know where the mob mentality is gonna start, and I know that there are definitely times where my dumb progeny will follow the crowd. I would be stunned beyond measure if he was the one leading it (and that extends to some of his friends), but even then, the chance isn't 0%.

The difference is that for him there would be negative consequences. This smarmy fuck likely got a hero's welcome from his parents, and now they get to live out their persecution fantasies to boot.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:21 am

I can't speak to the media, but I felt OUTRAGE halfcocked from the second round of video I saw, that I had to hunt down. The first round of video I saw like five or ten seconds and it was just douche child being douchey but I knew who Phillips was and knew he how poorly young men treated him from my alma mater and I wanted to know more, so I searched on and saw a minute video that made my blood boil. None of that came from "the media" other than social media. The next day another friend pointed out that I was OUTRAGed by a presented narrative and not by a larger story and pointed me to the GMA video, which was still not the whole thing but he was totally right and I did become OUTRAGed by a calculated narrative.

Only thing I could find from years before:

http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/native- ... as-indians

This was around the same time a truck ran over protestors (not seriously injuring them) a few days after someone spray painted swastikas across campus.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/ ... /90728874/

It's an exposed nerve.

I don't expect kids to have any respect or reverence for the man. They don't know who he is, what he's done or what he continues to do but I do expect them to have a decency and if their decency had already been tried by their confrontation with zealots, well, that's what chaperones are for. I get caught at either they are to act as adults or they are to be treated as children. Their actions are unacceptable for adults, their supervision is unacceptable if they are children. And that's that. I'm come down from being wrongly OUTRAGed, even if the nerve is still raw. Douche child is still douche, even seeing that at least one of Phillips compatriots was obviously not trying to de-escalate and even if it was not Phillips place to try and de-escalate.

I'm not sure there is every a place for mob justice but even if this were the worst case this wouldn't have been it, no matter my personal OUTRAGE.

(Also I post too much on a dead horse because this is a pretty big introspective moment for me. I'd like to (or would have liked to) believe that I am actively mitigating against being ill informed when it comes to social media presenting itself as fact based news and this weekend not only showed me I'm off, it showed me how quick I can move to upset through poor exposure. I never believed myself immune but thought myself better than I was.)

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:04 pm

gameoverman wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:48 am

Worn by teens it's even more meaningless, since they are just trying to be rebels.
In what world do rebelous teens express their discontent by wearing hats signifying political alignment with their parents? Hell, they're probably the same hats their parents wear to rallies.

These aren't teens trying to be rebellious. These are teens looking for confrontation and shit to post on Facebook/Insta.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Paingod » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:01 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:04 pm
These are teens looking for confrontation and shit to post on Facebook/Insta.
I'm of the mind that anyone who steps out of their house wearing that hat knows they're inviting scorn - and are spoiling for a fight. They want to step up for The Big Boss and prove they're worthy.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:11 pm

For the record it is still not as straight forward as some here have decided it is. Video after video after video have come out that continually change the narrative, with all of them seemingly accurate.

Phillips may not be a "martyr" but it's clear that he is not an instigator either so I'm still dumbfounded that a smart kid giving a good interview let's him off the hook for some people.

I also don't give the kids a free pass because the internet sucks. Being maligned more than is appropriate by some shouldn't be a get out of jail free card from others.

This whole thing is annoying because several "sides" with no dogs in the race are trying to control the narrative. CNN published a Phillips interview that I couldn't get through due to the leading questions and suggested conclusions put forth for Phillips to agree to.

Those giving the kids a pass, are you suggesting they are just over enthusiastic Braves fans?


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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Paingod » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:21 pm

It's a weird mess, but my take on that is that the school colors appear to be black and ... black ... with a theme of 'Crazy' ... ? I don't know where that lands us, but it doesn't look like blackface, but more black team colors? Hell, I don't know.

This all goes in my "Why I don't like organized religions" bin, with footnotes for disdain for Trump supporters. The two get mingled frequently, with him seeming to embolden the worse in people who claim they're full of love - as long as you're of the right sexuality/skin color.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:29 pm

Paingod wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:21 pm
It's a weird mess, but my take on that is that the school colors appear to be black and ... black ... with a theme of 'Crazy' ... ? I don't know where that lands us, but it doesn't look like blackface, but more black team colors? Hell, I don't know.

This all goes in my "Why I don't like organized religions" bin, with footnotes for disdain for Trump supporters. The two get mingled frequently, with him seeming to embolden the worse in people who claim they're full of love - as long as you're of the right sexuality/skin color.
It's a "blackout" where all the fans wear black. It's kind of common at sports events with "whiteouts," "blackouts" and whatever other color scheme. Usually it just involves wearing clothes of said color. Body/face paint is a step above. Blackface is a step too way too far. And that is blackface, there is no doubt.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Paingod » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:32 pm

I don't do anything with sports and had no idea that blackouts or whiteouts existed. That makes more sense.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:03 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:21 am
The next day another friend pointed out that I was OUTRAGed by a presented narrative and not by a larger story and pointed me to the GMA video, which was still not the whole thing but he was totally right and I did become OUTRAGed by a calculated narrative.
This. I'm tired of being manipulated by viral videos that often times are edited to make things either look worse/better than the actual event. Twitter announced they shut down the account of the person who first posted the shorter video that launched all the outrage. The owner announced themselves as a teacher from California, but in fact it was a troll from Brazil (at least that's the current update).

In the age of Trump, it seems to have become more and more prevalent. IMHO, it's partially because we have a leader that uses social media like a 13 year old, posting OMG whenever he sees something he doesn't like/supports his belief that he's beset upon on all sides by leftist enemies.

But I'm also of a mind that we're rapidly becoming a people that love to be outraged. Probably nothing new. But social media has given that shortcoming a medium unlike anything we've had before. It's the gas to the fire of outrage.

Personally, I'm all for just going all China on the internet, but instead of limiting political speech, I would turn off all access to the internet unless the keywords "cat video", "board games", and "naughty Mennonites with engine powered churners" were used in a search.

I kid, I kid...

...human powered churners would work too.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:46 pm

Coincidentally, caught this premier on PBS last night. A good watch.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Smoove_B » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:58 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:03 pm
This. I'm tired of being manipulated by viral videos that often times are edited to make things either look worse/better than the actual event.
No worries. Soon enough you'll be able to watch video of Trump meeting with the Covington Catholic School boys. If you think it sounds bad, wait until you see it.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by gameoverman » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:14 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:04 pm
gameoverman wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:48 am

Worn by teens it's even more meaningless, since they are just trying to be rebels.
In what world do rebelous teens express their discontent by wearing hats signifying political alignment with their parents? Hell, they're probably the same hats their parents wear to rallies.

These aren't teens trying to be rebellious. These are teens looking for confrontation and shit to post on Facebook/Insta.
'Rebels' doesn't always mean rebellious to parents. In this case, they are from Kentucky, they are wearing MAGA hats, and they were there for an anti-abortion rally(or so I read). They were rebelling against what their ilk like to stand against- the urban, educated, elite, intellectual, SJW, PC, minority tolerating left. They were rebelling against people like me, not their parents. Their parents send them to a private school, where they get trips like this among other things. Why would they rebel against their parents?

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Jaymann » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:58 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:58 pm
hepcat wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:03 pm
This. I'm tired of being manipulated by viral videos that often times are edited to make things either look worse/better than the actual event.
No worries. Soon enough you'll be able to watch video of Trump meeting with the Covington Catholic School boys. If you think it sounds bad, wait until you see it.

It's good to know that asshole is going to go down as a meme for a privileged, bigoted douchebag.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Z-Corn » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:49 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:46 pm
Coincidentally, caught this premier on PBS last night. A good watch.
Thanks for this. It's streaming on Prime also.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:51 pm

gameoverman wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:14 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:04 pm
gameoverman wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:48 am

Worn by teens it's even more meaningless, since they are just trying to be rebels.
In what world do rebelous teens express their discontent by wearing hats signifying political alignment with their parents? Hell, they're probably the same hats their parents wear to rallies.

These aren't teens trying to be rebellious. These are teens looking for confrontation and shit to post on Facebook/Insta.
'Rebels' doesn't always mean rebellious to parents. In this case, they are from Kentucky, they are wearing MAGA hats, and they were there for an anti-abortion rally(or so I read). They were rebelling against what their ilk like to stand against- the urban, educated, elite, intellectual, SJW, PC, minority tolerating left. They were rebelling against people like me, not their parents. Their parents send them to a private school, where they get trips like this among other things. Why would they rebel against their parents?
Then that doesn't sound like "meaningless" rebellion to me. Sounds like MAGA youth.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Z-Corn » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:04 pm

I've always found the Black Hebrew Israelites to be kinda amusing. I understand they are a PITA to deal with on the streets of NYC when they show up but they do have some sick burns.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LordMortis » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:19 pm

Speaking of more videos that give more insight





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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by hepcat » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm

Looks like some kids need to watch a shaving cream commercial.

They keep this up, they’re gonna become Supreme Court Justices someday.
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Z-Corn » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:45 am

There's a good chance some of them like beer already.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Defiant » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:36 am

They need to remember to maintain calendars of what they didn't do, though.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by gameoverman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:48 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:51 pm
gameoverman wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:14 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:04 pm
gameoverman wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:48 am

Worn by teens it's even more meaningless, since they are just trying to be rebels.
In what world do rebelous teens express their discontent by wearing hats signifying political alignment with their parents? Hell, they're probably the same hats their parents wear to rallies.

These aren't teens trying to be rebellious. These are teens looking for confrontation and shit to post on Facebook/Insta.
'Rebels' doesn't always mean rebellious to parents. In this case, they are from Kentucky, they are wearing MAGA hats, and they were there for an anti-abortion rally(or so I read). They were rebelling against what their ilk like to stand against- the urban, educated, elite, intellectual, SJW, PC, minority tolerating left. They were rebelling against people like me, not their parents. Their parents send them to a private school, where they get trips like this among other things. Why would they rebel against their parents?
Then that doesn't sound like "meaningless" rebellion to me. Sounds like MAGA youth.
Meaningless in the sense that this whole "MAGA" thing wasn't created by teens. This is a bandwagon they've jumped on, they don't control anything. They are like barnacles on a ship. When I was a teen it would been some anti-commie thing, today it's MAGA, next generation it'll be something else. So they can wear the hats, yell the slogans, and it's all just noise. To treat it as more than that is to validate it, ennoble it.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:26 pm

Anyone who joins an organization are just "jumping on the bandwagon" by that definition. I don't find it to be a useful one in this context. Cruise just jumped on the Scientologist bandwagon too, until he became a major promoter. Maybe with a little luck these kids can become major promoters of the bandwagon they jumped on with time. Until then, they should be free from criticism for their headwear fashion choices though.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:51 pm

Holman wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:53 pm
The Native American elder being mocked by smug little MAGA shits is a Vietnam veteran who performs ceremonies annually for natives buried at Arlington.

The lamest leftiest political-cartoon hack wouldn't attempt an allegory this broadly obvious.
WaPo
The Native American activist, seen beating a drum Friday as teens from Covington Catholic High School in Kentucky surrounded and mocked him, has referred to himself as a “Vietnam-times” veteran. He described in interviews getting spit on and called a baby killer by a “hippie girl” and told the Detroit Free Press on Saturday that “I’m a Marine Corps veteran, and I know what that mob mentality can be like.”
...
The incident also has led to scrutiny of Phillips’s service record after an organization representing him, the Lakota People’s Law Project, described him as a Vietnam veteran in a news release and numerous media reports identified him as one afterward. Several, including The Washington Post, have since issued corrections.

In reality, Phillips served from June 1972 to May 1976 in the Marine Corps Reserve, a service spokeswoman, Yvonne Carlock, said Wednesday. He did not deploy, and he left the service as a private after disciplinary issues. From October 1972 to February 1973, he was classified as an antitank missileman, a kind of infantryman, Carlock said. He then became a refrigerator technician for the majority of his service.

Daniel Paul Nelson, a leader in the Lakota People’s Law Project, said in an interview that his group made the error and that Phillips never told the group he served in Vietnam. The group, Nelson said, “trusted what we had seen” in previous stories about Phillips, some of which also referred to him erroneously as a Vietnam veteran.

“We were trying to do the advocacy work that we do,” Nelson said.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by gameoverman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:48 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:26 pm
Anyone who joins an organization are just "jumping on the bandwagon" by that definition. I don't find it to be a useful one in this context. Cruise just jumped on the Scientologist bandwagon too, until he became a major promoter. Maybe with a little luck these kids can become major promoters of the bandwagon they jumped on with time. Until then, they should be free from criticism for their headwear fashion choices though.
I'm just explaining why I'm not outraged by their behavior. Issues such as criticism of their action or even consequences for their actions are not my concern. They are teens, which means they have no standing in society, no leverage to use so their words or actions mean anything. They were in essence trolling everyone there. The worst thing to do with trolls is to engage with them because now you have elevated them and now they do have a voice. Look at all the attention they've received, for or against. They went from being a bunch of nobodies no one cared about to be the topic of the day.

If someone had drawn this situation up as a hypothetical one, and asked me "Okay, how do you think the teens react to the native American elder?" I would not have replied "Well, obviously MAGA hat wearing white boys have high regard for minorities so they would have calmed down and respectfully listened to his song". That's why I'm not surprised, much less outraged at what happened. It was exactly what I would expect would happen if he did that.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Chrisoc13 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Holman wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:53 pm
The Native American elder being mocked by smug little MAGA shits is a Vietnam veteran who performs ceremonies annually for natives buried at Arlington.

The lamest leftiest political-cartoon hack wouldn't attempt an allegory this broadly obvious.
WaPo
The Native American activist, seen beating a drum Friday as teens from Covington Catholic High School in Kentucky surrounded and mocked him, has referred to himself as a “Vietnam-times” veteran. He described in interviews getting spit on and called a baby killer by a “hippie girl” and told the Detroit Free Press on Saturday that “I’m a Marine Corps veteran, and I know what that mob mentality can be like.”
...
The incident also has led to scrutiny of Phillips’s service record after an organization representing him, the Lakota People’s Law Project, described him as a Vietnam veteran in a news release and numerous media reports identified him as one afterward. Several, including The Washington Post, have since issued corrections.

In reality, Phillips served from June 1972 to May 1976 in the Marine Corps Reserve, a service spokeswoman, Yvonne Carlock, said Wednesday. He did not deploy, and he left the service as a private after disciplinary issues. From October 1972 to February 1973, he was classified as an antitank missileman, a kind of infantryman, Carlock said. He then became a refrigerator technician for the majority of his service.

Daniel Paul Nelson, a leader in the Lakota People’s Law Project, said in an interview that his group made the error and that Phillips never told the group he served in Vietnam. The group, Nelson said, “trusted what we had seen” in previous stories about Phillips, some of which also referred to him erroneously as a Vietnam veteran.

“We were trying to do the advocacy work that we do,” Nelson said.
I heard this earlier today. I have to admit as a non-veteran... As long as he actually was in the military... I Don't really care if he was a Vietnam vet or a "standard" vet. I have seen a few posts elsewhere from vets being upset. I get that some more. But for me... I'm not going to pick apart someone's military service. I'm just grateful people are willing to serve.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LordMortis » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:34 am

Chrisoc13 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 pm
I heard this earlier today. I have to admit as a non-veteran... As long as he actually was in the military... I Don't really care if he was a Vietnam vet or a "standard" vet. I have seen a few posts elsewhere from vets being upset. I get that some more. But for me... I'm not going to pick apart someone's military service. I'm just grateful people are willing to serve.
His service is a total aside but that's me. I have the highest respect for those who served and those who serve now. But while I believe they are entitled to that respect, I don't believe I'm entitled to tell you they are entitled to your respect or service members are entitled to demand it of you. Respect is earned. And if history of nation isn't good enough for you or in alignment with your worldview, what can I say? Beyond that, how is someone to know someone else has served?

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by gameoverman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:27 pm

I think his service would be fair game if he brings it up as a way of bolstering his position. For example, if someone says "He attacked me, and I'm a combat veteran...." then that person better actually be one or it's going to hurt their credibility. In this case, I got the impression he was more pointing out how long he's been around, he's an elder, than trying to gain anything else by it.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:36 pm

I can't imagine anyone would claim to be a combat veteran. Military veteran? Sure. Vet? Probably. Combat veteran? That would be odd.

I'm sure all the WWII vets that never saw combat would be totally fine with having their veteran status called into question.

In the end though, does his military service really matter? Vets are already treated like second class citizens by the government that wielded them like disposable political tools, but somehow that status makes them immune to criticism?

He's a human being. That should be enough.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by Holman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:11 pm

More to the point of his service is his role in performing traditional ceremonies for deceased Native American soldiers. In this he's like a chaplain who has spent years volunteering at Arlington.

Native Americans have served in the U.S. military far out of proportion to their population. That's worthy of respect, and Phillips' efforts are a material part of that respect.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:19 pm

You act as if we haven't named several professional sports teams in their honor!

Enlarge Image

Enlarge Image
#thisISrespect
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Re: Pictures and Videos for R&P

Post by gameoverman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:40 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:36 pm
I can't imagine anyone would claim to be a combat veteran. Military veteran? Sure. Vet? Probably. Combat veteran? That would be odd.

I'm sure all the WWII vets that never saw combat would be totally fine with having their veteran status called into question.

In the end though, does his military service really matter? Vets are already treated like second class citizens by the government that wielded them like disposable political tools, but somehow that status makes them immune to criticism?

He's a human being. That should be enough.
I used combat veteran as an extreme example of trying to impress someone with military service. The idea is I don't care unless it's a "Do you know who I am?" attempt on the person's part. If someone was bringing up their veteran status in a way that sounds like it could be "Do you know who I am, I'm a veteran" then I think that makes them fair game because who cares if you're a veteran or not in situations where your status as a veteran is immaterial to what's going on? Other situations may make being a veteran relevant. Someone might mention they're a veteran, not in an attempt to impress or gain, but merely as a way to establish something like how long they've been involved in various activities. For example, someone might say "Yeah I've been working with this organization since I got out of the army" thereby establishing they are a veteran but not in a way that implies they are special because of it.

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