Ellen Page comes out as gay

[RunningMn9]

That you are worried about insulting someone is usually enough for the person to see that it was a mistake. From a language perspective, it’s odd to refer to a singular person as they/them, but if that makes the person more comfortable, I’ll make the effort until it’s no longer an effort.

[Jaymann]

Safest may be to eliminate pronouns: Elliott asked Elliott's followers to always refer to Elliot as Elliott.

[El Guapo]

Honestly I've never totally understood the pushback against using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun. We already use it in sentences when the gender of the subject is unclear, e.g.:

"A police officer came to talk to me today."
"Oh? What did they say?"

[Jaymann]

Honestly I've never totally understood the pushback against using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun. We already use it in sentences when the gender of the subject is unclear, e.g.:

"A police officer came to talk to me today."
"Oh? What did they say?"

Let's try that:

Elliott asked their followers to always refer to them as they.

[Unagi]

that wasn't so hard now, was it.

[El Guapo]

Honestly I've never totally understood the pushback against using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun. We already use it in sentences when the gender of the subject is unclear, e.g.:

"A police officer came to talk to me today."
"Oh? What did they say?"

Let's try that:

Elliott asked their followers to always refer to them as they.

You can make sentences clear or difficult with any pronouns, though. "Bob asked Jim to talk to him about when he would be ready to talk to him about his issues."

For that sentence, you can just rewrite it as "Elliott asked their followers to always refer to them using "they/them" pronouns."

[Unagi]

Honestly I've never totally understood the pushback against using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun. We already use it in sentences when the gender of the subject is unclear, e.g.:

"A police officer came to talk to me today."
"Oh? What did they say?"

Full disclosure, my oldest child (13, highly functional autistic) has recently declared that they are non-binary/ agender - and want to be addressed by 'they/them'.

It's come from out of nowhere. They have been 'male' in behavior (still so) most of their life, but being autistic (not that this is universal) they have always felt disconnected to 'the rest of us'... Being non-gender seems almost like something they are claiming, because it's as close as they can say to "I'm not even remotely like you".

In any case - to your comment above (edit: well, 2 above) .... I will just say this.... I think it's almost harder if it's in your home and it's a person you have been calling "he" for 13 years.

Just a normal conversation between my wife and I (while we try and honor they/them) becomes absurd at times... example: We want to check if a meal or something was OK with both kids.... I report back "Well I asked both kids if they were OK with Pizza tonight... Zoe said she was ok with it, but Jack said that they had Pizza last night."

That sounds like Jack is reporting that Zoe and Jack both had pizza last night, but it was only Jack. There are times where the 'they' just doesn't carry as much weight as you need it to in the sentence...

[Jaymann]

To El Guapo: That's great, but it still sounds like you have a mouse in your pocket.

[Isgrimnur]

To El Guapo: That's great, but it still sounds like you have a mouse in your pocket.

...Dad?

[Jaymann]

To El Guapo: That's great, but it still sounds like you have a mouse in your pocket.

...Dad?

Not that I know of, but apparently your father is a an astute gentleman.

[El Guapo]

Honestly I've never totally understood the pushback against using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun. We already use it in sentences when the gender of the subject is unclear, e.g.:

"A police officer came to talk to me today."
"Oh? What did they say?"

Full disclosure, my oldest child (13, highly functional autistic) has recently declared that they are non-binary/ agender - and want to be addressed by 'they/them'.

It's come from out of nowhere. They have been 'male' in behavior (still so) most of their life, but being autistic (not that this is universal) they have always felt disconnected to 'the rest of us'... Being non-gender seems almost like something they are claiming, because it's as close as they can say to "I'm not even remotely like you".

In any case - to your comment above (edit: well, 2 above) .... I will just say this.... I think it's almost harder if it's in your home and it's a person you have been calling "he" for 13 years.

Just a normal conversation between my wife and I (while we try and honor they/them) becomes absurd at times... example: We want to check if a meal or something was OK with both kids.... I report back "Well I asked both kids if they were OK with Pizza tonight... Zoe said she was ok with it, but Jack said that they had Pizza last night."

That sounds like Jack is reporting that Zoe and Jack both had pizza last night, but it was only Jack. There are times where the 'they' just doesn't carry as much weight as you need it to in the sentence...

Well, for sure there would also be a transition period (for lack of a better term) where it would have to be difficult to adjust to the person changing, regardless of pronoun. It's not something that I've had to adjust to for someone close to me, so I can't pretend to understand it, beyond accepting that it would have to be a significant challenge and adjustment.

You do make a good point on the "they" in the sentence described - easy to imagine lots of sentences where "they" creates new ambiguity where multiple subjects are involved. I figure the easiest way to adjust to that is just to use the name in those sentences, even though that would normally sound stilted "Jack said that Jack had pizza...".

But mainly I think there's a very strong case that "they" is the least bad option available for these situations, because the main alternatives are either "he or she" (awkward *and* still very problematic for non-binary people) or coming up with some new word that you'd then have to somehow get millions of people to start using.

[The Meal]

Honestly I've never totally understood the pushback against using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun. We already use it in sentences when the gender of the subject is unclear, e.g.:

"A police officer came to talk to me today."
"Oh? What did they say?"

That sounds like Jack is reporting that Zoe and Jack both had pizza last night, but it was only Jack. There are times where the 'they' just doesn't carry as much weight as you need it to in the sentence...

People joke about ze/zim but there is value there.

[Isgrimnur]

People joke about ze/zim but there is value there.

Even though the joke is from Red vs. Blue.

[gameoverman]

dead gendering

Quick! To the Googlemobile!

Most of the people I've seen get genuinely angry over the accidental misuse of a pronoun were not the people that pronoun applied to, but some other person trying to champion for them.

When we first got Payton (our new pigeon) after Barry (our old pigeon) died, we kept calling her Barry. It takes time to change word associations, or to get used to words that have always been plural being used for singular. It's a cultural linguistic change, and lots of people who are doing their best are going to slip up. Patience wins them over. Hostility turns them away.

I mostly agree with this. However I'd like to add that some people 'slip up' because they are not making an effort to cooperate. For instance, in my family there are two vegetarians. Over the years I've seen them at various family gatherings where we all eat together, such as Thanksgiving(not this year though). On multiple occasions the people preparing the food 'forgot' they were vegetarian and so what the vegetarians could eat there was limited. It happened so much they started bringing their own food each time. I don't think anyone 'forgot', I think they simply didn't care. They had their way of doing things and that was it. If someone tells me they want to be known by this other term then it's on me to make the effort to respect that. I probably will slip up but it won't happen over and over again. If it's happening over and over again it means I'm not trying to respect them at all. I may say things with my brain on autopilot but that's no excuse because I can change the autopilot settings when necessary.

[Blackhawk]

Honestly I've never totally understood the pushback against using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun. We already use it in sentences when the gender of the subject is unclear, e.g.:

"A police officer came to talk to me today."
"Oh? What did they say?"

It's the awkwardness, especially if you're someone for whom English usage has played an important role (say, a writer who spends considerable effort avoiding awkward language.) Yes, we already use it that way, but not in the same circumstances. The solution is simply that if we keep using it awkwardly, it will eventually become normal. And honestly, TV could play a big role here. If enough popular series have a 'they', it will start feeling normal before you know it.

[Unagi]

Honestly I've never totally understood the pushback against using "they" as a gender neutral pronoun. We already use it in sentences when the gender of the subject is unclear, e.g.:

"A police officer came to talk to me today."
"Oh? What did they say?"

That sounds like Jack is reporting that Zoe and Jack both had pizza last night, but it was only Jack. There are times where the 'they' just doesn't carry as much weight as you need it to in the sentence...

People joke about ze/zim but there is value there.

Value aside, it’s a non starter because they don’t have an ounce of interest in being called ze/zim.

[The Meal]

There are times where the 'they' just doesn't carry as much weight as you need it to in the sentence...

People joke about ze/zim but there is value there.

Value aside, it’s a non starter because they don’t have an ounce of interest in being called ze/zim.

Just to be 100% clear, I'm not proposing calling *anyone* by any pronoun they don't prefer. In fact, exactly the opposite.

[Jaymon]

A couple of people I have known for a long time have changed, and those are the hardest to remember.

I make mistakes, and I correct it everytime, but it still slips out when I get talking too fast, or when I am talking about something from the past.
When you know somebody as one gender for 30+ years and then they switch, it takes some time for old brains to re-train. The hardest part is when you are looking at a picture from before, it requires literal force to get the words our correctly.

[Unagi]

There are times where the 'they' just doesn't carry as much weight as you need it to in the sentence...

People joke about ze/zim but there is value there.

Value aside, it’s a non starter because they don’t have an ounce of interest in being called ze/zim.

Just to be 100% clear, I'm not proposing calling *anyone* by any pronoun they don't prefer. In fact, exactly the opposite.

Yeah, sorry - I certainly didn't think you were... And you are right, for folks asking for "ze/zim", they have provided a solution to the 'they/them' dilemma.

(I blabber on here a bit on this... sorry...)

I hate to admit, we have a good deal of trouble following the desires of our child. They/Them is far from our minds, and our child just doesn't seem like they are as neutral as they say (they really do come across as pretty 'male' in manner of speech, subject matter, aggression, etc). We slip, still, a lot. AND WE CARE - OH HOW WE CARE! We've said "him" for 13 years. I honestly think it would be easier (mental muscle memory wise) to switch to calling Him a Her or She.... but learning to say "they" is not so much a 'switch' as it is an entirely new way of speaking.


The 'non gender' idea, is not something I entirely understand - or perhaps to put it another way: I don't know how entirely realistic it is to hope that 'society' will honestly (some day) look at people as being possibly 'no gender at all'. I think most strangers will still silently, subconsciously place you into one or the other gender... And that's not to say that they even put much weight on gender roles or expectations or sexuality, or any of that -- just that the world is filled with Male/Female of all things (Spiders, Dogs, Trees, etc) - it's just a biological tag that represents the size of your potential sexual contribution. (you give a lot, you are female - you give a little, you are male).

Truth is, I've always (my wife as well) have looked at myself as an extremely open/liberal person that welcomes all forms of people... Having a gay child , or a transgender male/female, we feel, is something we could understand - this however, this has been hard for us to actually even understand. For our child - they have made it clear they don't feel Female, nor Male... but when they explain themselves the thing that's becoming very clear (for our case, this is NOT what I think a lot of people are experiencing) - but it's become very clear to us that it's puberty that is the gender problem for our kid. If they could stay prepubescent forever - they would likely not care one way or the other about being 'he' or 'him'.... but hair on the chest ? and a possibly deep voice are not welcome at all... (they, my kid, were upset to learn that women also smell and many have more hair than they would like to admit, but 'they argue: 'not as much' )....

I honestly have no idea what I'm really dealing with here. We are seeing a few people that we are consulting on the topic...Children's Doctors that deal with transgender kids (and the autistic part is actually not a small thing here)... Discussing "Puberty Blockers" (but to what end?) and exploring their position on this - but we are just at the first stages.

(another example of ambiguity above... when I said we are exploring their position on this, I mean the Doctors' - not my child's... although we are clearly exploring his in this entire endeavor)

[Smoove_B]

stuff

And at the end of the day , I think that's all you really can do (be supportive). And it's not just being supportive for your child, but to a broader degree, individuals like Elliot. I've read your post and I don't even know where I'd start if I was in a similar position, but hopefully you can get connected with the right group. We have an organization here in Jerz that does lots of advocacy and awareness for similar issues. Is it possible your state has a similar non-profit? Not that you shouldn't be speaking with various medical professionals, but there might be others out there (parents) that can offer insight and support to what you're all going through right now.

[Unagi]

A couple of people I have known for a long time have changed, and those are the hardest to remember.

I make mistakes, and I correct it everytime, but it still slips out when I get talking too fast, or when I am talking about something from the past.
When you know somebody as one gender for 30+ years and then they switch, it takes some time for old brains to re-train. The hardest part is when you are looking at a picture from before, it requires literal force to get the words our correctly.

My poor 10 year old daughter gets yelled at when she tells a story like: "about 3 years ago, me and my brother were ...." --- "YOU DON'T HAVE A BROTHER !!!" they interrupt.

It's honestly heartbreaking because she doesn't have a word to call her new sibling and remembers very well - not even a year ago - when he was apparently proud to be her 'big brother'... Asking her to call them their "Sibling" just isn't happening.

[Jaymann]

I see another potential problem in child rearing, that I doubt anyone would admit. Say you have a child that is born a boy, and so identified on their birth certificate. There may be a tendency, even subconsciously, to immerse that child in G.I. Joe style "male" toys and encourage aggressive behavior in an effort to make sure they don't "turn."

[Blackhawk]

I see another potential problem in child rearing, that I doubt anyone would admit. Say you have a child that is born a boy, and so identified on their birth certificate. There may be a tendency, even subconsciously, to immerse that child in G.I. Joe style "male" toys and encourage aggressive behavior in an effort to make sure they don't "turn."

That tendency is already deeply ingrained. Boys get action figures, girls get Barbies. Boys get blue, girls get pink. Boys play football, girls play house (and we won't even get into the insult that is 'powderpuff football.') My father-in-law flipped his wig when we bought our son a doll one year and a play kitchen the next. He also used to get genuinely angry at Michelle when she was growing up and would get caught playing with her brother's GI Joe figures instead of 'girl toys.' She'd actually get in trouble for it.

Not only is it overbearing in childrearing, it's an attitude that sticks around throughout life and is harmful to everyone. "Ladies don't act that way." "Be a man!" This coming from a man who spent most of his adult life as a homemaker, has been an at-home parent to three kids, doesn't like sports, and refuses to engage in any activity simply because it is expected of me. And I have gotten a lot of shit from it. Hell, when the kids were little, a group of women found out that Michelle was working while I was taking care of the kids. They absolutely lit into her because of the harm she was doing to her kids by not being the one to stay home, as a father can't be compassionate/affectionate/nurturing. Obviously.

Telling me what's expected of me or appropriate - interests, habits, mannerisms, whatever - because I happen to have a penis is one sure way to get me fired up, and not in good way. Fuck your man card.

[Unagi]

I see another potential problem in child rearing, that I doubt anyone would admit. Say you have a child that is born a boy, and so identified on their birth certificate. There may be a tendency, even subconsciously, to immerse that child in G.I. Joe style "male" toys and encourage aggressive behavior in an effort to make sure they don't "turn."

Well, men pounding MAN into their boys (or women being 'girly' with their girls) isn't anything new in this world.

clearly - the main error in your statement is the very idea that anyone is doing any 'turning' here... or that someone could do anything to prevent what that one would could call 'turning'...

Personally, I'm not a very 'manly' man. So I never really had any real big 'man' expectations from my son... Perhaps just to pee standing up... that was probably the one expectation I had. And they are still cool with that.

[Jaymann]

I see another potential problem in child rearing, that I doubt anyone would admit. Say you have a child that is born a boy, and so identified on their birth certificate. There may be a tendency, even subconsciously, to immerse that child in G.I. Joe style "male" toys and encourage aggressive behavior in an effort to make sure they don't "turn."

Well, men pounding MAN into their boys (or women being 'girly' with their girls) isn't anything new in this world.

clearly - the main error in your statement is the very idea that anyone is doing any 'turning' here... or that someone could do anything to prevent what that one would could call 'turning'...

Personally, I'm not a very 'manly' man. So I never really had any real big 'man' expectations from my son... Perhaps just to pee standing up... that was probably the one expectation I had. And they are still cool with that.

That is why I put "turn" in quotes, as it is widely accepted there is no such thing. But the notion persists among the unenlightened. Peeing while standing up - the best of both worlds!

[noxiousdog]

Unagi, don't be surprised if it's just a phase. It might not be, of course, and be supportive but teens are rebelling with sexual identity instead of cigarettes, drugs, or having sex. They are smarter than we were, but still have a need to experiment. *this opinion brought to you with no expertise in child development, other than 3 kids between 12 and 18 and their friends.

My eldest daughter swore she was a lesbian from 12-15... and promptly has changed her mind.
The younger just cut her hair to a traditional boy cut, and I think was outed by her brother a couple nights ago as non-binary. It's even less likely she's non-gendered than the elder.

That's not to say treat them any differently. They can change their mind every year until I die for all the difference it makes to me. But don't put a lot of stress into it.

[YellowKing]

They absolutely lit into her because of the harm she was doing to her kids by not being the one to stay home, as a father can't be compassionate/affectionate/nurturing. Obviously.

The thing that irks me every time is how reinforced this is in advertising and television series. The mom is always the one who exasperatedly has to clean up the disaster her dolt of a husband has left trying to take care of the kids for five minutes. And even outside the realm of child care, the wife is usually portrayed as the only smart, responsible adult in the household.

Reminds me of the lyric in the Sting song, "I'm So Happy I Can't Stop Crying" where he says, "A kid should be with his mother, everybody knows that,
What can a father do but babysit sometimes." In the song that line is not mean to be a statement of fact, but a painful surrender to the way our judicial system is set up to favor the mothers. As a child of a fairly nasty divorce, that song hurts every time.

All that said, I totally realize male grievances are pretty low on the priority list compared to the discrimination thrown at women every day. It's just one more thing I try to be cognizant of and try not to pass along to my kids.

[Paingod]

I see another potential problem in child rearing, that I doubt anyone would admit. Say you have a child that is born a boy, and so identified on their birth certificate. There may be a tendency, even subconsciously, to immerse that child in G.I. Joe style "male" toys and encourage aggressive behavior in an effort to make sure they don't "turn."

We tried to give our kids a neutral backdrop. We didn't stuff boys into blue and girls into pink. We let our kids pick the toys they wanted to play with and encouraged whatever they wanted to do or be. Our oldest kid loved his butterfly wings (thin fabric stretched over a wire frame, worn on the back) and ran around the house with them. The youngest was really into lots of bright, vibrant colors.

Going into public school killed that in about 2 weeks. Suddenly being unique wasn't cool, even at 5. It made us very sad. We still encourage them to do or be whatever they want, but they've developed very strict ideas about what that is from their peers.

[Blackhawk]

The thing that irks me every time is how reinforced this is in advertising and television series.

I'd love to see some more popular TV series with a man who is less masculine - even slightly feminine - who isn't either the comic relief, the pity party, or stereotypically gay.

All that said, I totally realize male grievances are pretty low on the priority list compared to the discrimination thrown at women every day.

Absolutely. But human society is tied together, and I do think that not training boys to be stereotypical beer-and-football males and letting them discover their own personalities would result in less abuse and discrimination. It would also result in less mental illness, as forcing yourself into a role that isn't natural for you is very damaging. A lot of that comes form the us-vs-them mentality drilled into both sexes. Our society pushes the idea that it's male or female, black and white, no gray. Biology and psychology don't work that way, but everybody in middle (both the non-masculine males and non-feminine females, not to mention those right in the center) is either forced into a more traditional role to be accepted as relevant, or is ostracized and marginalized.

Women absolutely have it worse. The cards are stacked against them by society, and it's men stacking the cards. But in the end, solving us-vs-them problems requires addressing both sides.

[LawBeefaroni]

(I blabber on here a bit on this... sorry...)

I hate to admit, we have a good deal of trouble following the desires of our child. They/Them is far from our minds, and our child just doesn't seem like they are as neutral as they say (they really do come across as pretty 'male' in manner of speech, subject matter, aggression, etc). We slip, still, a lot. AND WE CARE - OH HOW WE CARE! We've said "him" for 13 years. I honestly think it would be easier (mental muscle memory wise) to switch to calling Him a Her or She.... but learning to say "they" is not so much a 'switch' as it is an entirely new way of speaking.

My wife's cousin changed name and pronoun(s) a few years ago. Our kids have adapted just but my wife and the cousin's siblings/parents and other relatives have a tough time. Not for lack of support of trying but just from years of doing it differently. Me and the kids don't have as long a history.

I have some problems but more from not knowing when to use "they" vs "ze", etc. And it gets confusing often with "they."

We're all learning. Fortunately the cousin is understanding.

The 'non gender' idea, is not something I entirely understand - or perhaps to put it another way: I don't know how entirely realistic it is to hope that 'society' will honestly (some day) look at people as being possibly 'no gender at all'. I think most strangers will still silently, subconsciously place you into one or the other gender... And that's not to say that they even put much weight on gender roles or expectations or sexuality, or any of that -- just that the world is filled with Male/Female of all things (Spiders, Dogs, Trees, etc) - it's just a biological tag that represents the size of your potential sexual contribution. (you give a lot, you are female - you give a little, you are male).

Truth is, I've always (my wife as well) have looked at myself as an extremely open/liberal person that welcomes all forms of people... Having a gay child , or a transgender male/female, we feel, is something we could understand - this however, this has been hard for us to actually even understand. For our child - they have made it clear they don't feel Female, nor Male... but when they explain themselves the thing that's becoming very clear (for our case, this is NOT what I think a lot of people are experiencing) - but it's become very clear to us that it's puberty that is the gender problem for our kid. If they could stay prepubescent forever - they would likely not care one way or the other about being 'he' or 'him'.... but hair on the chest ? and a possibly deep voice are not welcome at all... (they, my kid, were upset to learn that women also smell and many have more hair than they would like to admit, but 'they argue: 'not as much' )....

I honestly have no idea what I'm really dealing with here. We are seeing a few people that we are consulting on the topic...Children's Doctors that deal with transgender kids (and the autistic part is actually not a small thing here)... Discussing "Puberty Blockers" (but to what end?) and exploring their position on this - but we are just at the first stages.

(another example of ambiguity above... when I said we are exploring their position on this, I mean the Doctors' - not my child's... although we are clearly exploring his in this entire endeavor)

Beyond communication, there's a point where it can become a significant problem. We have had services denied payment by insurance for "incorrect" gender. We have 4 or 5 custom fields in the EMR for gender identity and pronouns that very few other facilities use. When we merged, we actually had to educate the mother ship on these issues and port our dictionary to them. I was actually surprised when I moved to this hospital how far ahead it was on gender/LGBTQ health issues.

It's going to be tough for a while.