Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

[ImLawBoy]

Reuters is reporting that Qatar is now saying the men are free to move about and even return immediately to Afghanistan if they so choose. Nice job fellas.

[citation needed]

Well, here's the Reuters story. I don't want to spoil it, but try guessing whether msd got all his facts right before clicking on the link.

The original Reuters story posted quoted an anonymous Gulf senior official (their words) as saying they would be free to return to Afghanistan and implied immediately. Typical of internet stories they went back in and further edited and clarified the story about an hour later with the 1 year timeline.

I do appreciate you being a total dickhead by trying to get cute with your statement about my accuracy and the link. Feel free to fuck yourself.

Is the end of that really necessary? You made your point appropriately, and you could have had the high ground in the discussion, but then you had to end it that way.

[LordMortis]

Nothing supports Bergdahl being an asset. That's just . Everything else is just facts as reported by Internet news type sites.

LOL googled CIA and Bergdahl and a bunch of infowars links went straight to the the top.

[Pyperkub]

Mods - R&P? Especially as this story is being pushed for political gain?

[Grifman]

I personally don't doubt that mr deserter wasa CIA asset and his recovery is part of the bigger Obama problem of releasing CIA operatives names in Afghanistan in a press release earlier that week. Obama gets two birds with one stone. He meets a stated objective of freeing these guys and getting one step closer to closing Gitmo and he recovers and asset just in time.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would the CIA have an asset posing as a private in the US army, a man whose daily activities are pretty limited by the nature of his job?

[Holman]

I'm sure the theory is that he was meant to get captured and gather intelligence and etc. But that's pure nuts, since being a prisoner is easily the worst position for gathering intelligence, especially when we've certainly got numbers of actual Taliban members working for us as informants directly.

[LawBeefaroni]

Reuters is reporting that Qatar is now saying the men are free to move about and even return immediately to Afghanistan if they so choose. Nice job fellas.

[citation needed]

Well, here's the Reuters story. I don't want to spoil it, but try guessing whether msd got all his facts right before clicking on the link.

The original Reuters story posted quoted an anonymous Gulf senior official (their words) as saying they would be free to return to Afghanistan and implied immediately. Typical of internet stories they went back in and further edited and clarified the story about an hour later with the 1 year timeline.

I do appreciate you being a total dickhead by trying to get cute with your statement about my accuracy and the link. Feel free to fuck yourself.

Is the end of that really necessary? You made your point appropriately, and you could have had the high ground in the discussion, but then you had to end it that way.

Have to agree.

And consider it lesson learned on why citation is useful. It is a pretty out-there claim that they would be allowed to return to Afghanistan in less than a year's time when every other mention of the deal states that they will have to remain in Qatar for a full year. You're free to make it, especially if Reuters puts it in a story, but you skip the citation/quote at your own peril. When you throw in the "Nice job, fellas" you've kind of upped the ante.

[Rip]

Interesting that this was floated before Congress two years ago and wasn't well received.

Top congressional leaders were briefed more than two years ago about the possible exchange of five Guantanamo prisoners for American soldier Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, but raised "serious" concerns from the outset about the risks of such a trade, officials say.

House Speaker John Boehner and others provided new details Tuesday about the prior deliberations, and voiced grave concern that the administration charged ahead with the prisoner swap over the weekend without Congress' approval.

Boehner, who called for hearings on the decision, said the administration "never satisfactorily answered" lawmakers' questions and concerns that surfaced from the beginning about the proposed trade. Further, Boehner alleged that the only reason the administration failed to notify Congress is "the administration knew it faced serious and sober bipartisan concern and opposition."

"The administration has invited serious questions into how this exchange went down," Boehner said in a statement.

[GreenGoo]

Has anything the President proposed in the last 6 years been well received by Congress, Rip?

[Grifman]

Has anything the President proposed in the last 6 years been well received by Congress, Rip?

In fairness to Rip, a lot of Dems in Congress are upset also.

[GreenGoo]

Has anything the President proposed in the last 6 years been well received by Congress, Rip?

In fairness to Rip, a lot of Dems in Congress are upset also.

That doesn't change anything.

[Rip]

Has anything the President proposed in the last 6 years been well received by Congress, Rip?

It isn't a proposal for a law, it is a discussion on a decision that Congress is by law required to be involved in. Excluding them and doing what you want when they won't agree to do it your way isn't the method of governance I find acceptable from the executive branch.

[LawBeefaroni]

Has anything the President proposed in the last 6 years been well received by Congress, Rip?

It isn't a proposal for a law, it is a discussion on a decision that Congress is by law required to be involved in. Excluding them and doing what you want when they won't agree to do it your way isn't the method of governance I find acceptable from the executive branch.

By that definition, we haven't had an a consistent acceptable method of governance from the Executive branch for 65 years. It's the status quo, not the exception.

[Apollo]

Has anyone considered that the US wants Bergdahl to get information about his captors, their methods, their location, how he was held, what questions they asked him, etc.? If he is a deserter then it seems the CIA (or whomever) would have a lot of leverage to get him to tell everything he knows in exchange for a reduced sentence. Generally speaking, when things like this happen I tend to think that there's more to the story than we know (or will know, at least for the foreseeable future).

[LawBeefaroni]

Has anyone considered that the US wants Bergdahl to get information about his captors, their methods, their location, how he was held, what questions they asked him, etc.? If he is a deserter then it seems the CIA (or whomever) would have a lot of leverage to get him to tell everything he knows in exchange for a reduced sentence. Generally speaking, when things like this happen I tend to think that there's more to the story than we know (or will know, at least for the foreseeable future).

Sure, in fact I assume this or something similar is the case. But putting aside the debate about the value of anything he might know (personally I don't think it's much), there's still the issue of legal procedure. We might not [ever] know why this move made sense, but surely Congress should be apprised and allowed their required vote. If they refuse to allow it for petty partisan reasons, out them.

[Pyperkub]

Has anyone considered that the US wants Bergdahl to get information about his captors, their methods, their location, how he was held, what questions they asked him, etc.? If he is a deserter then it seems the CIA (or whomever) would have a lot of leverage to get him to tell everything he knows in exchange for a reduced sentence. Generally speaking, when things like this happen I tend to think that there's more to the story than we know (or will know, at least for the foreseeable future).

It's election time though... must score points and count coup.

[Carpet_pissr]

Has anyone considered that the US wants Bergdahl to get information about his captors, their methods, their location, how he was held, what questions they asked him, etc.? If he is a deserter then it seems the CIA (or whomever) would have a lot of leverage to get him to tell everything he knows in exchange for a reduced sentence. Generally speaking, when things like this happen I tend to think that there's more to the story than we know (or will know, at least for the foreseeable future).

As we are trying to wind down the war against them? Might make sense in early days as we faced a new and untested enemy, but I don't think it fits here.

[Apollo]

...As we are trying to wind down the war against them? Might make sense in early days as we faced a new and untested enemy, but I don't think it fits here.

I really don't know but considering that the Obama administration knew this would be a big source of bipartisan criticism just 5 months before the election makes me wonder what's really up. After all, they could have waited until after the election to do this.

My latest guess is that it has to do with larger negotiations with the Taliban. Maybe we're trying to make a deal with the Taliban to help the upcoming Presidential elections go more smoothly. The second round of voting is less than two weeks away. That's the only reason I can come up with for the timing of trading prisoners who had been held captive for years.

[dbt1949]

I don't know who's getting more flak, Obama or this poor soldier. His home town is planning a big homecoming for their "hero" and are getting tons of hate mail.
I guess this all goes with the "all soldiers are heroes" mentality that prevails now. The American public is so fickle.
At least in my day everybody was firmly in the hate or love of soldiers category.

[Rip]

I'm all for soldiers but this guy is a disgrace to the uniform.

[Kraken]

My latest guess is that it has to do with larger negotiations with the Taliban.

That's what I've been saying from the beginning. We might never learn exactly how the dots connect...but imagine if there's a negotiated peace in Afghanistan before Obama leaves office. That would be a helluva win.

Closing Guantanamo is the other agenda that's back in play after years of stalemate.

[Rip]

I think it had little to do with the Afghans or the soldier and everything to do with unloading those guys from Gitmo. This was just the excuse to do it. He would of made this deal for a handjob.

[msduncan]

Has anyone considered that the US wants Bergdahl to get information about his captors, their methods, their location, how he was held, what questions they asked him, etc.? If he is a deserter then it seems the CIA (or whomever) would have a lot of leverage to get him to tell everything he knows in exchange for a reduced sentence. Generally speaking, when things like this happen I tend to think that there's more to the story than we know (or will know, at least for the foreseeable future).

It's election time though... must score points and count coup.

Releasing the Taliban command structure back into the wilds is not worth intelligence gained from one soldier.

[Canuck]

I don't know who's getting more flak, Obama or this poor soldier. His home town is planning a big homecoming for their "hero" and are getting tons of hate mail.
I guess this all goes with the "all soldiers are heroes" mentality that prevails now. The American public is so fickle.
At least in my day everybody was firmly in the hate or love of soldiers category.

That was when you were either a Loyalist or a Republican, right?

[Grifman]

Has anything the President proposed in the last 6 years been well received by Congress, Rip?

In fairness to Rip, a lot of Dems in Congress are upset also.

That doesn't change anything.

Well, yeah it does. It's not a purely partisan issue. Obama's problems with Congress have been with Republicans because they control the House. This problem is not limited to Republicans nor the House. When the Democratic Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee is upset because she wasn't informed/consulted, yeah, you have a different problem than if just Republicans were upset.

[Grifman]

...As we are trying to wind down the war against them? Might make sense in early days as we faced a new and untested enemy, but I don't think it fits here.

I really don't know but considering that the Obama administration knew this would be a big source of bipartisan criticism just 5 months before the election makes me wonder what's really up. After all, they could have waited until after the election to do this.

No, they couldn't. You're assuming the deal could be postponed and you don't know that. From what I read, the deal was very fragile and almost collapsed several times. In addition, I read they got a recent video that showed him in pretty bad shaped and they were worried about his health if they couldn't pull it off soon.

[Grifman]

I'm all for soldiers but this guy is a disgrace to the uniform.

Rip, I suspect this may be true, but can we just wait for all the facts before jumping to conclusion, you know, just once, maybe?

[AWS260]

Video of the handover.

[Grifman]

I'm sure the theory is that he was meant to get captured and gather intelligence and etc. But that's pure nuts, since being a prisoner is easily the worst position for gathering intelligence, especially when we've certainly got numbers of actual Taliban members working for us as informants directly.

That's even dumber. Guy gets captured, there's no guarantee it's no "off with his head", or that if he's not killed, he's ever returned.

[Grifman]

I think it had little to do with the Afghans or the soldier and everything to do with unloading those guys from Gitmo. This was just the excuse to do it. He would of made this deal for a handjob.

Dammit, here I go defending you and then you go and post something inane like this!

[LawBeefaroni]

Has anyone considered that the US wants Bergdahl to get information about his captors, their methods, their location, how he was held, what questions they asked him, etc.? If he is a deserter then it seems the CIA (or whomever) would have a lot of leverage to get him to tell everything he knows in exchange for a reduced sentence. Generally speaking, when things like this happen I tend to think that there's more to the story than we know (or will know, at least for the foreseeable future).

It's election time though... must score points and count coup.

Releasing the Taliban command structure back into the wilds is not worth intelligence gained from one soldier.

I think you are overestimating the value of these guys to today's Taliban. They may have some severe angst and recruiting chops but I think the first thing they want to do is savor their freedom and get caught up on the 12 years they spent in prison.

OTOH, I agree with you that, barring some highly unlikely super secret mission, Bergdahl doesn't have that much to offer our intelligence services either.

[Rip]

I'm all for soldiers but this guy is a disgrace to the uniform.

Rip, I suspect this may be true, but can we just wait for all the facts before jumping to conclusion, you know, just once, maybe?

Just what he has written and said makes him a disgrace. The unknown stuff is just icing on the cake.

[GreenGoo]

Has anything the President proposed in the last 6 years been well received by Congress, Rip?

In fairness to Rip, a lot of Dems in Congress are upset also.

That doesn't change anything.

Well, yeah it does. It's not a purely partisan issue. Obama's problems with Congress have been with Republicans because they control the House. This problem is not limited to Republicans nor the House. When the Democratic Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee is upset because she wasn't informed/consulted, yeah, you have a different problem than if just Republicans were upset.

I'm not going to argue the point. Nor am I going to suggest that every time Congress is not accepting of an Obama initiative it is unwarranted. That they are almost uniformly opposed to him no matter what he does is probably why he doesn't give a shit what they think in this case. Whether that's legally right or wrong is another question.

[Exodor]

Someone familiar with treason and negotiations with terrorists is upset:

He strongly disputed the characterization of Bergdahl as a "prisoner of war," asserting that he was in fact a "hostage" of the Haqqani terrorist network, which is allied with the Taliban.

Moreover, North estimated that the ransom paid for Bergdahl must have been in the range of $5-$6 million, given that he had heard it was around $1 million at some point in the past. North didn't provide any evidence that a ransom was paid in conjunction with Bergdahl's release.

"Someone paid a ransom," North said. "Whether the Qataries paid it, or some big oil sheik, or somebody used our petrodollars, but there was a ransom paid in cash for each one of them, my guess somewhere in the round numbers of $5 or 6 million to get Bergdahl freed. I know that the offer that was on the table before was close to a million."

North had more to say on Tuesday night, joining his pal Sean Hannity on Fox News to suggest that Obama might believe "unilateral surrender is the way to end the war." He once again demanded to know whether a ransom was paid to the Haqqanis.

"And if a ransom was paid, either at our behest or with American tax dollars, it means this government is causing to be funded a criminal enterprise that kills Americans, the Haqqanis," North said.

I think the irony-meter just exploded.

[dbt1949]

Obama will probably pardon him just like Jimmy Carter did all those deserters and draft dodgers during his tenure.

[Pyperkub]

Has anyone considered that the US wants Bergdahl to get information about his captors, their methods, their location, how he was held, what questions they asked him, etc.? If he is a deserter then it seems the CIA (or whomever) would have a lot of leverage to get him to tell everything he knows in exchange for a reduced sentence. Generally speaking, when things like this happen I tend to think that there's more to the story than we know (or will know, at least for the foreseeable future).

It's election time though... must score points and count coup.

Releasing the Taliban command structure back into the wilds is not worth intelligence gained from one soldier.

Depends. We've been torturing them for over a decade. Exactly how effective do you think they'll be? They'll probably think their satellite phones are secure...

PS what is the life of one American citizen worth?

[dbt1949]

In my day a GI's death benefits were $10,000.

[Moliere]

[ImLawBoy]

Probably should have done this a while ago, as any non-R&P discussion of the topic is long past. Moving to R&P. If someone feels a need to discuss the non R&P elements of this, you can open a new thread in EBG, but we'll probably watch it pretty closely to prevent it from going R&P.

[msduncan]

Well damn. Now that this has been moved it's not exciting anymore. Back to Wildstar!

[Unagi]

OK... In the video where he was released and brought to the helicopter, he has no beard. But when I saw images of him the other day - huge beard.

Am I missing some time here?