Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Alefroth
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Alefroth »

Unagi wrote:OK... In the video where he was released and brought to the helicopter, he has no beard. But when I saw images of him the other day - huge beard.

Am I missing some time here?
Are you confusing him with his father?
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Alefroth »

Rip wrote:
Grifman wrote:
Rip wrote:I'm all for soldiers but this guy is a disgrace to the uniform.
Rip, I suspect this may be true, but can we just wait for all the facts before jumping to conclusion, you know, just once, maybe?

Just what he has written and said makes him a disgrace. The unknown stuff is just icing on the cake.
What has he said and written?
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by AWS260 »

Alefroth wrote:
Rip wrote:Just what he has written and said makes him a disgrace. The unknown stuff is just icing on the cake.
What has he said and written?
I believe Rip is referring to the email he sent his parents shortly before he was captured. It's recounted in this Rolling Stone article, and portions of it have been frequently (some might say selectively) cited in recent media coverage. The full article is worth a read, if you're interested in Bergdahl's story.
"The future is too good to waste on lies," Bowe wrote. "And life is way too short to care for the damnation of others, as well as to spend it helping fools with their ideas that are wrong. I have seen their ideas and I am ashamed to even be american. The horror of the self-righteous arrogance that they thrive in. It is all revolting."

The e-mail went on to list a series of complaints: Three good sergeants, Bowe said, had been forced to move to another company, and "one of the biggest shit bags is being put in charge of the team." His battalion commander was a "conceited old fool." The military system itself was broken: "In the US army you are cut down for being honest... but if you are a conceited brown nosing shit bag you will be allowed to do what ever you want, and you will be handed your higher rank... The system is wrong. I am ashamed to be an american. And the title of US soldier is just the lie of fools." The soldiers he actually admired were planning on leaving: "The US army is the biggest joke the world has to laugh at. It is the army of liars, backstabbers, fools, and bullies. The few good SGTs are getting out as soon as they can, and they are telling us privates to do the same."

In the second-to-last paragraph of the e-mail, Bowe wrote about his broader disgust with America's approach to the war – an effort, on the ground, that seemed to represent the exact opposite of the kind of concerted campaign to win the "hearts and minds" of average Afghans envisioned by counterinsurgency strategists. "I am sorry for everything here," Bowe told his parents. "These people need help, yet what they get is the most conceited country in the world telling them that they are nothing and that they are stupid, that they have no idea how to live." He then referred to what his parents believe may have been a formative, possibly traumatic event: seeing an Afghan child run over by an MRAP. "We don't even care when we hear each other talk about running their children down in the dirt streets with our armored trucks... We make fun of them in front of their faces, and laugh at them for not understanding we are insulting them."
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Canuck »

Soldier whinges about his superiors and has an opinion about whether the army should be where they are. Sounds like a real dirtbag.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by dbt1949 »

Actually is sounds SOP of all GIs.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Unagi »

Alefroth wrote:
Unagi wrote:OK... In the video where he was released and brought to the helicopter, he has no beard. But when I saw images of him the other day - huge beard.

Am I missing some time here?
Are you confusing him with his father?
I must be, thank you.
I didn't realize that I was looking at 'the dad' that whole time.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Unagi wrote:
Alefroth wrote:
Unagi wrote:OK... In the video where he was released and brought to the helicopter, he has no beard. But when I saw images of him the other day - huge beard.

Am I missing some time here?
Are you confusing him with his father?
I must be, thank you.
I didn't realize that I was looking at 'the dad' that whole time.
I did the same thing. When I saw the beard, I thought "good lord, could they not at least give the dude a shave and a bath before trotting him out in front of the media, and shaking the president's hand?"

Reminded me VERY much of the first scenes of 'Homeland', actually.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Rip »

After having read the entire article I would soften my stance on him slightly. The fact that this guy and the rest of his unit were still even out there was a disaster waiting to happen.

That was the first I have read of the other issue surrounding his unit for a long time prior to his walking off. At some point someone from above should have stepped up and had them sent back to the states for training and eval or had them broken up. Sounds like they were lucky the entire unit didn't get killed or involved in one of those embarrassing civilian attacks.

Not sure the administration and the military is going to be too excited to allow the eyes of the public to see all the FUBAR stuff that allowed this to happen.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Alefroth »

AWS260 wrote:
Alefroth wrote:
Rip wrote:Just what he has written and said makes him a disgrace. The unknown stuff is just icing on the cake.
What has he said and written?
I believe Rip is referring to the email he sent his parents shortly before he was captured. It's recounted in this Rolling Stone article, and portions of it have been frequently (some might say selectively) cited in recent media coverage. The full article is worth a read, if you're interested in Bergdahl's story.
Story
Thanks, I hadn't seen that. I thought he might have been referring to the purported letter Bergdahl wrote before leaving base.

I have to say I had many of those same thoughts during my time in the army (non-combat).
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

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Taliban Commander: More Kidnappings to Come After Bergdahl Deal
A Taliban commander close to the negotiations over the release of U.S. Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl told TIME Thursday that the deal made to secure Bergdahl’s release has made it more appealing for fighters to capture American soldiers and other high-value targets.

“It’s better to kidnap one person like Bergdahl than kidnapping hundreds of useless people,” the commander said, speaking by telephone on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media. “It has encouraged our people. Now everybody will work hard to capture such an important bird.”
I suppose that is one way to close Guantanamo Bay: trade all the prisoners for newly captured "high value" targets.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Alefroth »

Moliere wrote:Taliban Commander: More Kidnappings to Come After Bergdahl Deal
A Taliban commander close to the negotiations over the release of U.S. Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl told TIME Thursday that the deal made to secure Bergdahl’s release has made it more appealing for fighters to capture American soldiers and other high-value targets.

“It’s better to kidnap one person like Bergdahl than kidnapping hundreds of useless people,” the commander said, speaking by telephone on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media. “It has encouraged our people. Now everybody will work hard to capture such an important bird.”
I suppose that is one way to close Guantanamo Bay: trade all the prisoners for newly captured "high value" targets.
He makes it sound like what they were lacking was the motivation to kidnap high value targets, not the ability.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Unagi »

Or as if they have a history of kidnapping hundreds of low value birds.

And what is the implication here?
That this soldier was one of the most prized soldiers?
That we would act slowly if it was 100 American citizens?
Or, as you just pointed out: that high valued prisoners of war are of higher value than low value ones?

It seems like an odd statement to declare.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Unagi »

Rip wrote:After having read the entire article I would soften my stance on him slightly. The fact that this guy and the rest of his unit were still even out there was a disaster waiting to happen.
Just slightly?
I must say I very much feel for him, and certainly for his American mom and dad.

So, what are the things he has said/written that have you calling for the firing squad?
Seems like you were enlightened by this stuff, yet that's the stuff that it was speculate you were condemning him for.

Can you give any example of what you were originally talking about, if it wasn't that?
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by dbt1949 »

So, there's Obama having this meeting a while back with his advisers and someone said "You know we could score some real good political points by getting this captured soldier away from the Taliban."
Everyone agrees of course and so they arrange it, I mean what could go wrong?
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Pyperkub »

dbt1949 wrote:So, there's Obama having this meeting a while back with his advisers and someone said "You know we could score some real good political points by getting this captured soldier away from the Taliban."
Everyone agrees of course and so they arrange it, I mean what could go wrong?
"I'm never surprised by controversies that are whipped up in Washington. That's par for the course," President Barack Obama said Thursday during a news conference at a meeting of G7 leaders in Brussels.

Surprising? Perhaps not.

But the force of the vitriol, backlash and backpedaling is an example of how sensitive issues can quickly turn volatile in a hyper-partisan Washington climate, political analysts said.

"When, all of a sudden, you've got Republican congressman who previously were calling for this, criticizing the administration for leaving this man in captivity for five years, or praising his release, and then deleting those Tweets? That really belies the politics. That exposes the naked, ugly politics behind this controversy," said John Avalon, a CNN political analyst.
However, in February, McCain seemed in an interview with CNN to back a swap.

"Obviously, I'd have to know the details, but I would support ways of bringing him home and if (an) exchange was one of them, I think that would be something I think we should seriously consider," he said at the time.
Per CNN.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

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I haven't followed - what is McCain's position on all this right now. Is he actually following the GOP memo this time - or letting his heart speak?

Or even you, dbt, you think this man should still be a POW? You think his opinions on all this make him an American NOT worth bringing back home? I'm not at all clear: say what you mean.

The GOP is so fucking ugly.

That's right dbt.... I'm sure Obama made this trade to 'score political points'. My god. :clap:
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Isgrimnur »

HuffPo wrote:On Wednesday, Jake Tapper got a lot of attention for highlighting John McCain's apparent change of heart when it came to letting Taliban fighters out of Guantanamo Bay in exchange for the release of American soldier Bowe Bergdahl. So it was bound to be awkward when the two discussed the issue on Tapper's Thursday show.

McCain said that, had he known exactly who Bergdahl would be traded for, he never would have told Anderson Cooper that he supported a prisoner exchange.

"The details are outrageous!" he told Tapper.

“But, senator, they’re not going to free members who are members of Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band," Tapper shot back. "I mean, it’s going to be bad guys who are released!”

"For anyone to accuse me of saying I'd support any prisoner swap under any circumstances is lying," McCain said.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Unagi »

"For anyone to accuse me of saying I'd support any prisoner swap under any circumstances is lying," McCain said.

What is the argument fallacy at play here? Is that straw-man?
:liar:
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Unagi wrote:"For anyone to accuse me of saying I'd support any prisoner swap under any circumstances is lying," McCain said.

What is the argument fallacy at play here? Is that straw-man?
:liar:
Shifting sands? Equivocation?

He says "exchange" in the first quote. Now he says "prisoner swap." Without other quotes for the full context, I guess he could say that "exchange" meant something like trading a US prisoner for a helicopter or a bag of baseballs rather than for prisoners. If he wanted to do the usual semantical gymnastics.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Isgrimnur »

McCain long ago abandoned the realities of his time in the service and as a POW to go full politician. Every great now and again, he'll demonstrate a bit of underlying logic and humanity, which is better than I can say about some, but those are very much the exceptions just giving contrast to the rampant reality.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by dbt1949 »

Unagi wrote:I haven't followed - what is McCain's position on all this right now. Is he actually following the GOP memo this time - or letting his heart speak?

Or even you, dbt, you think this man should still be a POW? You think his opinions on all this make him an American NOT worth bringing back home? I'm not at all clear: say what you mean.

The GOP is so fucking ugly.

That's right dbt.... I'm sure Obama made this trade to 'score political points'. My god. :clap:

Do I think he should be a POW? No. Do I think he should have been traded for 5 Taliban leaders? No.

Do I think that almost every thought a president has in office is to score political points? Yes.

Most all the modern presidents say the first term is all about getting re-elected. I can't imagine the second term being much different except they're trying to get their own party back in the White House and congress.

Perhaps I'm too cynical (me? :think: ) but who's too naive?
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Smoove_B »

The Slate offers their opinion on the exchange and the "crisis" associated with it:
Republican critics have been quick to condemn the transfer of five Guantánamo detainees for Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl as a violation of Section 1035 of the most recent National Defense Authorization Act.

....

In March 2002 then-Assistant Attorney General Bybee, as representative of the “president’s law firm,” the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, sent a memo to the Defense Department’s general counsel that would entirely excuse the statutory violation for which Obama is responsible. According to that memo, presidents enjoy constitutionally unlimited control over the transfer of “captured terrorists to the control and custody of foreign nations.”
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Pyperkub »

David Brooks attempts to swim upstream against the Conservative Meme:
The president and vice president, the only government officials elected directly by the entire nation, have a special responsibility to nurture this national solidarity. So, of course, President Obama had to take all measures necessary to secure the release of Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl. Of course, he had to do all he could do to not forsake an American citizen.

It doesn’t matter if Bergdahl had deserted his post or not. It doesn’t matter if he is a confused young man who said insulting and shameful things about his country and his Army. The debt we owe to fellow Americans is not based on individual merit. It is based on citizenship, and loyalty to the national community we all share.

Soldiers don’t risk their lives only for those Americans who deserve it; they do it for the nation as a whole.


It is not dispositive either that the deal to release Bergdahl may put others at risk. The five prisoners released from Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, in a swap for Bergdahl seem like terrible men who could do harm. But their release may have been imminent anyway. And the loss of national fraternity that would result if we start abandoning Americans in the field would be a greater and more long lasting harm.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

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Rip wrote:After having read the entire article I would soften my stance on him slightly.
So what you're saying is that you jumped the gun?!? Color me shocked!!! :shock: :D
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Rip »

Grifman wrote:
Rip wrote:After having read the entire article I would soften my stance on him slightly.
So what you're saying is that you jumped the gun?!? Color me shocked!!! :shock: :D
SLIGHTLY.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Pyperkub »

Rip wrote:After having read the entire article I would soften my stance on him slightly. The fact that this guy and the rest of his unit were still even out there was a disaster waiting to happen.

That was the first I have read of the other issue surrounding his unit for a long time prior to his walking off. At some point someone from above should have stepped up and had them sent back to the states for training and eval or had them broken up. Sounds like they were lucky the entire unit didn't get killed or involved in one of those embarrassing civilian attacks.

Not sure the administration and the military is going to be too excited to allow the eyes of the public to see all the FUBAR stuff that allowed this to happen.
It does tend to get more results than brushing them under the rug tho... (see the VA).
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Enough »

Good ole' Rand Paul weighs in,
@SenRandPaul: "Mr. President, let's set up a new trade. Instead of 5 Taliban, let's trade 5 Democrats!"
Now that's presidential material right there. :roll:
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Holman »

Enough wrote:Good ole' Rand Paul weighs in,
@SenRandPaul: "Mr. President, let's set up a new trade. Instead of 5 Taliban, let's trade 5 Democrats!"
Now that's presidential material right there. :roll:
Tomorrow Ted Cruz will attack him for believing there's a difference.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by msduncan »

Enough wrote:Good ole' Rand Paul weighs in,
@SenRandPaul: "Mr. President, let's set up a new trade. Instead of 5 Taliban, let's trade 5 Democrats!"
Now that's presidential material right there. :roll:
How many dumb shit and unpresidential things has Clinton and Obama said? A fuck ton of them. Obama smacking on a wad of gum during D day ceremonies isn't exactly very Presidential either is it?
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by msduncan »

I will give you guys credit this time though. Instead of faking concern over this issue to begin with while you figured out a way to turn it around on the GOP, you started right away hailing it as the best thing since sliced bread.

My original concern is still my biggest concern: these 5 guys weren't rank and file terrorists or taliban. They were leadership and were traded for someone who walked away from his post. It was the wrong decision made purely to score political points.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Isgrimnur »

Then it's been a huge failure, as there have been no political points scored. The Dems have reacted in a negative way to it as well, and I'm sure it'll be front and center in the coming election ads.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Enough »

msduncan wrote:
Enough wrote:Good ole' Rand Paul weighs in,
@SenRandPaul: "Mr. President, let's set up a new trade. Instead of 5 Taliban, let's trade 5 Democrats!"
Now that's presidential material right there. :roll:
How many dumb shit and unpresidential things has Clinton and Obama said? A fuck ton of them. Obama smacking on a wad of gum during D day ceremonies isn't exactly very Presidential either is it?
And when Dems do stupid things I am happy to mock them too, and regularly do. But this about mocking Rand, which I am sure you will agree he richly deserves. Or are you not an equal opportunity mocker?
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by malchior »

msduncan wrote:
Enough wrote:Good ole' Rand Paul weighs in,
@SenRandPaul: "Mr. President, let's set up a new trade. Instead of 5 Taliban, let's trade 5 Democrats!"
Now that's presidential material right there. :roll:
How many dumb shit and unpresidential things has Clinton and Obama said? A fuck ton of them. Obama smacking on a wad of gum during D day ceremonies isn't exactly very Presidential either is it?
Wait are you comparing chewing gum at a D-Day ceremony (a minor faux pas at worst) with trading members of a rival political party to enemy combatants? That is flat out idiotic.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Pyperkub »

msduncan wrote:I will give you guys credit this time though. Instead of faking concern over this issue to begin with while you figured out a way to turn it around on the GOP, you started right away hailing it as the best thing since sliced bread.

My original concern is still my biggest concern: these 5 guys weren't rank and file terrorists or taliban. They were leadership and were traded for someone who walked away from his post. It was the wrong decision made purely to score political points.
Never tried to turn this around on the GOP per se, except to look at the hypocrisy of hiring a political consultant to politicize this and to call out the hypocrisy of GOP folks who were adamant that he should be freed, even by exchange. I also tend to think that there are more than one side to a story and this has shown to be the case.

You just like to feel slighted.

I do think that your fears are overblown to a large degree - releasing these guys now is just as likely to incite a civil war amongst the Taliban as it is to get them into full-fledged terrorist abetting mode. You haven't really spoken to my question earlier as to exactly how effective you think they are going to be. Hell, half of the Taliban could suspect that they've been turned and will now be CIA assets... if so, I don' t see them living long, and if not, they'll still face that problem politically within the current Taliban leadership structure - it's not as if the people who stepped into their shoes and have the power now are going to just step aside and welcome them into the fold quite that simply.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Zarathud »

The Taliban threatened to kill Bergdahl if the deal was made public before it occurred. When Senators were briefed on Wednesday when the exchange happened, but some vocal critics either walked out or didn't even bother to show up.
Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.), ranking member on the Select Committee on Intelligence, appeared on Fox News to criticize the administration while the briefing was still underway.
Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) stayed long enough to ask a question, but he walked out shortly after shouting at an official over an unsatisfactory answer, according to a Senate aide familiar with the process.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), who criticized President Barack Obama for breaking the law, skipped the briefing entirely.
Talk about hypocrisy.
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Rip »

malchior wrote:
msduncan wrote:
Enough wrote:Good ole' Rand Paul weighs in,
@SenRandPaul: "Mr. President, let's set up a new trade. Instead of 5 Taliban, let's trade 5 Democrats!"
Now that's presidential material right there. :roll:
How many dumb shit and unpresidential things has Clinton and Obama said? A fuck ton of them. Obama smacking on a wad of gum during D day ceremonies isn't exactly very Presidential either is it?
Wait are you comparing chewing gum at a D-Day ceremony (a minor faux pas at worst) with trading members of a rival political party to enemy combatants? That is flat out idiotic.
Because he was obviously serious about doing that. :roll:
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by $iljanus »

Enough wrote:Good ole' Rand Paul weighs in,
@SenRandPaul: "Mr. President, let's set up a new trade. Instead of 5 Taliban, let's trade 5 Democrats!"
Now that's presidential material right there. :roll:
I laughed a little. He's a bit of a joke so I take much of what he says in the same vein.
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Zarathud
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Zarathud »

I can think of 5 Republicans we can trade...who think they can single-handedly defeat the Taliban.
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$iljanus
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by $iljanus »

Zarathud wrote:I can think of 5 Republicans we can trade...who think they can single-handedly defeat the Taliban.
Bah, one Republican can defeat the Taliban and be back in time to have lunch with a K Street lobbyist and a floor vote supporting a bill banning gay marriage :-P
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Unagi
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Re: Sole Afghan POW released

Post by Unagi »

I think we should (as a blow hard nation) just point out how a 'turn-coat U.S. soldier' is STILL worth 5 of their 'greatest'.


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