Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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GreenGoo
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by GreenGoo »

Isgrimnur wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:09 pm
The soldier said he wants to set the record straight and to let the families of the fallen know their loved ones did not die in vain.
Well, that depends on how much you value the efforts in Afghanistan I suppose. At least they didn't die in Iraq.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Max Peck »

Rip wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:27 pm The death toll isn't over yet, we will have to wait and see how many people the five guys they released to get him kill.
By that logic, we should speculate on how many dead and maimed American soldiers are attributable to Trump being too chickenshit to do his duty in Vietnam (despite his life-long dream of having a Purple Heart).
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by pr0ner »

Rip wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:33 pm
Kraken wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:57 pm As far as I'm concerned he already served five years of prison time. Piling on more would just be cruel.
Not nearly as cruel as the people with lifelong injuries or who died after being ordered to "rescue" him.
Maybe if the guy you had voted for for President had any ability to show tact or discretion, Bergdahl would have received a stiffer punishment.

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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Grifman »

He should have gotten 5 to 10 years IMO. Some of those searching for him received severe life changing injuries. That alone argues for some sort of jail time to me.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by GreenGoo »

Grifman wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:21 pm He should have gotten 5 to 10 years IMO. Some of those searching for him received severe life changing injuries. That alone argues for some sort of jail time to me.
Perhaps. There are a number of military members involved in investigating the case that recommended no jail time for various reasons. Whether you or I agree with it, the military itself had multiple opinions on the subject, and that was before Drumpf shot his mouth off. It was a military judge that decided on the sentence.

I'm not nor have I been a member. I don't claim to know how it works. While I may second guess a trial result based on what is common knowledge, in this case I have no idea what the norm is for this sort of situation and find it very hard to second guess this result.

While it's true that people were injured and killed during military missions searching for him, and the prosecution argued that these were hasty and significantly increased the risk to the members who participated, I can't help but consider the fact that these men are soldiers in a warzone. Whether they are injured looking for a captured american who deserted or while handing out relief supplies, they are there for the very definition of risk. It may sound as if I'm being cavalier with the lives of these soldiers, but I can assure you I am not. Rescuing a citizen of the US is extremely high priority in my opinion, and I think the efforts to do so were appropriate despite the risks. Whether that citizen is a criminal or has cured cancer seems beside the point. He's still a citizen. Complaints about Obama droning American citizens in foreign countries seem to agree with this logic.

While I understand the resentment and anger from some of the soldiers involved, it's not really up to a soldier to decide if a mission is a good idea or not. How many soldiers would have preferred to leave him to be tortured if they had known he had deserted? Would command have bothered with rescue missions if they had known?

In any case, I would not have been opposed to jail time. When Kraken mentioned he had been in prison for 5 years, I thought he meant in military custody. Now that I know that is not the case, I can't easily argue that time has been served. That said, he was seriously abused for 5 years in Taliban custody. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Does he deserve more punishment on top of what he has already been through? Obviously, opinions are mixed.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by tjg_marantz »

Booted out of coast guard.
Goes to France to join French foreign Legion without realizing he needs to speak French.
Still gets accepted by the army because they just need warm bodies in 2008.

Yeah. He's the problem alright.

A just sentence.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Yup, he certainly is. At least for his part of things.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Combustible Lemur »

FWIW, based on an interview i watched this is the sentence hatch thought was appropriate.

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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Freyland wrote:Yup, he certainly is. At least for his part of things.
Dishonourable discharge and all that comes with it. You bet.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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I won't judge the decision without having seen everything the judge saw. The guy did something really, really wrong, but he also just spent half a decade in conditions that none of us could likely begin to imagine. For all we know, his condition is such that putting him back into a cage could border on the 'cruel and unusual' side of things. He'll still be trying to live his life with a record and reputation that will cripple his future, plus nightmares and mental issues that will last for the rest of his life.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Holman »

Maybe Bergdahl can win forgiveness by painting portraits of the soldiers killed or wounded when they followed him?
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by gbasden »

I do have to wonder what the purpose of sending him to jail would be. He's not a danger to society. He certainly isn't going to be encouraging others to follow his lead - 5 years of torture followed by the President calling for your head and half the country loathing you isn't exactly an incentive. Further punishment is cruelty for cruelties sake.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Freyland »

tjg_marantz wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:50 pm
Freyland wrote:Yup, he certainly is. At least for his part of things.
Dishonourable discharge and all that comes with it. You bet.
I have no idea what this means in the context of you quoting me.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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gbasden wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:00 pm I do have to wonder what the purpose of sending him to jail would be. He's not a danger to society. He certainly isn't going to be encouraging others to follow his lead - 5 years of torture followed by the President calling for your head and half the country loathing you isn't exactly an incentive. Further punishment is cruelty for cruelties sake.
Justice? Men were severely injured hunting for him. One guy had a part of his brain blown out, something he and his family have to live with the rest of their lives:

Image

Whatever Bergdahl suffered in Taliban captivity pretty much pales in comparison with what this family will suffer. Bergdahl can still walk, doesn't have to wear diaper, can change his own clothes, feed himself. From everything I've read and heard on the radio, the troops are incensed about this. The impact on troop morale is a factor.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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WaPo
Criticism of Bergdahl by President Donald Trump also appeared to push the judge toward leniency.
...
Prosecutors asked for a 14-year prison sentence, citing several service members’ serious wounds while searching for Bergdahl. The defense sought to mitigate the punishment with evidence of Bergdahl’s captivity, mental illnesses, contrition and Trump’s harsh criticism.

“It’s really rare for there to be this much mitigation evidence,” said Eric Carpenter, a former Army lawyer who teaches law at Florida International University. “It’s kind of hard to distinguish which is the one that Nance gave the most weight to. But I think the Taliban conditions were pretty onerous.”
...
Former Air Force lawyer Rachel VanLandingham noted that Bergdahl’s captivity was twice cited by officers in early investigations as a reason not to send him to prison. The officer who oversaw Bergdahl’s 2015 Article 32 hearing, which serves a similar purpose to a civilian grand jury process, wrote imprisonment wasn’t necessary largely due to “atrocities” against Bergdahl, though he noted he didn’t have evidence of casualties on search missions.

“The high level folks who have looked at this said: ‘We just don’t think confinement is appropriate because of the amount of torture he suffered,’” said VanLandingham, who teaches at Southwestern Law School in California.

During sentencing, Bergdahl described beatings and torture by his captors with copper wire and unending bouts of illness brought on by squalid conditions. After several escape attempts, he was placed in a cage for four years.

Greg Rinckey, a former Army lawyer now in private practice, said he believes the “brutal conditions” and their duration were the most significant of the mitigating factors.
...
Nance rejected defense motions that charges should be dismissed or punishment limited because Trump was exerting unlawful command influence. But Nance indicated he would consider Trump’s comments a factor promoting leniency.
...
Now, Trump’s condemnation of the lack of prison time on Twitter on Friday could give the defense lawyers a strong hand to get the sentence reduced further by an appeals court, the legal experts say. A dishonorable discharge triggers an automatic appeal to a higher military court.
...
Nance also likely factored in Bergdahl’s willingness to take responsibility by pleading guilty, his emotional apology in court, and his mental health issues, the experts said. Bergdahl choked up Monday as he apologized to the wounded searchers in court.

Bergdahl and his lawyers offered evidence of two mental disorders as mitigating factors. A psychiatrist testified Bergdahl was influenced by a schizophrenia-like condition called schizotypal personality disorder that made it hard to understand consequences of his actions, as well as post-traumatic stress disorder after a difficult childhood.

Bergdahl’s escape attempts and valuable information he provided intelligence officers also helped, VanLandingham said.

“You have a mentally ill individual who served five years honorably in captivity. He genuinely showed remorse. And I think those things came across loud and clear,” VanLandingham said.
...
Carpenter described the wounds as “very compelling” evidence against Bergdahl, but he said Nance likely recognized the searches involved events beyond Bergdahl’s control.

“Because there were so many other factors between Bergdahl’s actions and those injuries, the weight of the evidence went down,” Carpenter said.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by GreenGoo »

That's interesting because I did a reasonable search (imo) and didn't find any mention of that guy. (edit: found a reference to him in a reuters article. It's one line, almost an aside, while leg injury dude had an entire paragraph. Strange focal point of the article. edit2: Found another, more detailed article in a UK news site of all things).

As I've mentioned, I don't find it especially compelling (to the argument of imprisonment for Bergdahl) that soldiers were wounded and killed carrying out the orders they were given. While I'm not completely unsympathetic to soldiers on missions that are questionable, these weren't suicide missions and the goal was to return an American prisoner from Taliban hands. How he got there might be a mitigating factor, but it's not the most important factor, imo.

Bergdahl didn't shoot any of these soldiers. The enemy that the US is there to fight did. I fully understand that these men wouldn't have been where they were at that point in time if not for searching for Bergdahl, yet they were in hostile country as soldiers. That's not a safe occupation. I'm somewhere in between those who want to lynch him up and those who think he's suffered enough.

Obviously if it were up to me no soldier would ever be injured or killed, but that's not the nature of military campaigns.

edit3: It sure sounds like the judge is unhappy about Drumpf's comments and almost certainly mitigating his sentencing because of that. Maybe if it were a criminal trial I might be more annoyed with Drumpf (more than usual) but in this case, with a military trial, no jury and a single judge, I'm not sure what possible effect Drumpf's comments could have. Sure, public opinion is being influenced, but public opinion has little to do with military trials, doesn't it? Am I being naive?
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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A guy did something really, really stupid. As a result of that, he did damage, and he got his ass handed to him - royally. He's laying there, broken and bleeding on the ground. He's fully aware that it was his own fault.

I don't find it 'justice' to have someone else go up and kick him in the ribs again just because "that's what you do." That's not justice, that's revenge.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by gbasden »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:04 am
I don't find it 'justice' to have someone else go up and kick him in the ribs again just because "that's what you do." That's not justice, that's revenge.
Exactly. Not to mention that while some of those people were injured looking for him, many of those people would have been on patrols anyway in that same dangerous area. A number of his former squadmates testified to that. In addition, Bergdahl obviously had mental issues. Look at him washing out of the Coast Guard.

I dunno. Throwing this Bergdahl in jail for the rest of his life doesn't give that poor wounded soldier his life back. It doesn't make us safer. I don't see the point past blind vengeance.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Did Trump dislike the ruling because it was too harsh or too lenient?
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Holman »

Jaymann wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:42 am Did Trump dislike the ruling because it was too harsh or too lenient?
Trump wanted him (or claimed to want him) executed.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Holman wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:28 am
Jaymann wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:42 am Did Trump dislike the ruling because it was too harsh or too lenient?
Trump wanted him (or claimed to want him) executed.
Jeez, and he can't even get the trains to run on time.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Grifman »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:04 am A guy did something really, really stupid. As a result of that, he did damage, and he got his ass handed to him - royally. He's laying there, broken and bleeding on the ground. He's fully aware that it was his own fault.

I don't find it 'justice' to have someone else go up and kick him in the ribs again just because "that's what you do." That's not justice, that's revenge.
The thing is, he's not broke and bleeding, he's walking away, free and clear. And yours is a terrible and inaccurate analogy. Just because you say it's "revenge" doesn't make it so. You'll need to argue for that. You'll need to explain why a prison sentence isn't justice but is instead revenge.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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gbasden wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:37 am Exactly. Not to mention that while some of those people were injured looking for him, many of those people would have been on patrols anyway in that same dangerous area. A number of his former squadmates testified to that. In addition, Bergdahl obviously had mental issues. Look at him washing out of the Coast Guard.
The crippled soldier I noted above would not have been on patrol "anyway". His was a special unit called in to specifically hunt for Berghdal.
I dunno. Throwing this Bergdahl in jail for the rest of his life doesn't give that poor wounded soldier his life back. It doesn't make us safer. I don't see the point past blind vengeance.
No one here is arguing that he ought to spend his life in prison as far as I have seen, so I call "straw man" :) I myself think he should have gotten 5 years.

That said, another thing irks me a little here :) A lot people here just throw around the terms "revenge" and "vengeance" as if that just makes it true, without even attempting to make an actual argument why any punishment would be so. If you're going to assert that any punishment would be vengeance, you're probably going to need to define justice and then explain how further punishment would violate the standards of justice. Not just throw terms around :)
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Grifman wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:45 pm
The thing is, he's not broke and bleeding, he's walking away, free and clear. And yours is a terrible and inaccurate analogy. Just because you say it's "revenge" doesn't make it so. You'll need to argue for that. You'll need to explain why a prison sentence isn't justice but is instead revenge.
Five years of torture isn't something you walk away from, free and clear. A dishonorable discharge with nationwide attention also isn't 'free and clear.'

What makes it revenge is that most of the motivations I've heard aren't "he needs to pay for his mistakes" (which he has spent five years doing, and will continue to do), they're "I really don't like him and he needs to suffer for it." I don't think a few years in prison would have been injustice, but neither do I consider what happened to be.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Holman »

Making him pay for what he did would be fair.

Making him pay for lives lost or damaged in searching for him seems somehow to cheapen the ethic of never leaving a man behind.

"Never leave a man behind unless you think he got himself into his mess" doesn't seem the same to me.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by gbasden »

Grifman wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:53 pm

No one here is arguing that he ought to spend his life in prison as far as I have seen, so I call "straw man" :) I myself think he should have gotten 5 years.

That said, another thing irks me a little here :) A lot people here just throw around the terms "revenge" and "vengeance" as if that just makes it true, without even attempting to make an actual argument why any punishment would be so. If you're going to assert that any punishment would be vengeance, you're probably going to need to define justice and then explain how further punishment would violate the standards of justice. Not just throw terms around :)
That's the sentence that has been on the table ever since he pled guilty. I didn't just pull it from thin air.
FORT BRAGG, N.C. (Reuters) - U.S. Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl pleaded guilty on Monday to deserting his duties in Afghanistan in June 2009 and endangering the lives of fellow troops, a step toward resolving the politically charged case that could send him to prison for life.
There are generally three purposes for incarcerating someone - deterrence, rehabilitation and punishment for what they have done. In this particular case, I don't think deterrence plays into it, there is no case for rehabilitation, and my personal feeling is that if you plan to be taking someone that has been locked in a small cage for four years and then throwing them behind bars again you'd better have a compelling reason. In my mind, given that he didn't set out to cause harm to his fellow soldiers, the rationale for further punishment doesn't fit his crime.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Holman wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:09 pm Making him pay for what he did would be fair.
Agreed.
Making him pay for lives lost or damaged in searching for him seems somehow to cheapen the ethic of never leaving a man behind.
Letting him go free after deserting his post and putting his fellow soldiers in harm's way because of that decision would seem to somehow cheapen his abandonment of his responsibility towards his brother soldiers and taking responsibility for one's actions.
"Never leave a man behind unless you think he got himself into his mess" doesn't seem the same to me.
Since I'm not arguing he should have been left behind, this argument would seem to be irrelevant :)
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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gbasden wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:31 pm
That's the sentence that has been on the table ever since he pled guilty. I didn't just pull it from thin air.
I aware life imprisonment is on the table, but I'm not arguing for life imprisonment. But if you want to respond to the general internet about an aspect of the case not being discussed here, go to it.
There are generally three purposes for incarcerating someone - deterrence, rehabilitation and punishment for what they have done. In this particular case, I don't think deterrence plays into it, there is no case for rehabilitation, and my personal feeling is that if you plan to be taking someone that has been locked in a small cage for four years and then throwing them behind bars again you'd better have a compelling reason. In my mind, given that he didn't set out to cause harm to his fellow soldiers, the rationale for further punishment doesn't fit his crime.
His actions would have a logical consequence. Saying he didn't intend to cause harm to his fellow solders is like driving 150 mph down the interstate, then hitting and killing someone, and then saying, "Sorry, I didn't mean to kill anyone". Somehow, I don't think that would be your get out of court free card.

His incarceration and punishment by the Taliban was a direct result of his decision and that's on him. This should be a mitigating factor against a long sentence but IMO it should not preclude prison time. As stated previously, I don't think he should get life imprisonment but he should get some time, for abandoning his post and fellow soldiers and actions leading to injuries, some serious and lifelong, and perhaps even deaths (this is disputed but there are arguments both ways) of fellow soldiers.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Rip »

Not to mention a vast waste of resources that should have been used elsewhere. I am quite sure the cost was in the millions.

Then there is the matter of terrorists being released to recover him. Will be a few years before we even have a clue what the real cost of that will be.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Rip wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:59 am Then there is the matter of terrorists being released to recover him. Will be a few years before we even have a clue what the real cost of that will be.
Meh, that talking point was misleading even back in 2014.
So why these men? In fact, there appears to be far more at stake here than the return of Bergdahl, and this also may be part of a three-dimensional diplomatic chess game. Their future has been important in negotiations between the Afghan government, the United States and the Taliban in resolving the conflict. Peace talks took place in 2011 and 2012, and—not surprisingly—the future of the men considered to be top Taliban officials was a key sticking point. The question came down not to whether they would be released, but whether they could be transferred to Qatar. In 2012, one of the top aides to the government of Hamid Karzai obtained the five men’s agreement to be sent to Qatar, which a spokesman for the Afghan president said might boost the peace process.

It is not surprising, then, that when the five Guantanamo detainees had been freed, they were released in Qatar, where they would remain under house arrest.

It’s also not surprising that the whole affair has become a political football.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Isgrimnur wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:04 am WaPo
Nance rejected defense motions that charges should be dismissed or punishment limited because Trump was exerting unlawful command influence. But Nance indicated he would consider Trump’s comments a factor promoting leniency.
...
Now, Trump’s condemnation of the lack of prison time on Twitter on Friday could give the defense lawyers a strong hand to get the sentence reduced further by an appeals court, the legal experts say. A dishonorable discharge triggers an automatic appeal to a higher military court.
He should submit a public statement thanking Trump for his support in this.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by gbasden »

Grifman wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:29 am

His actions would have a logical consequence. Saying he didn't intend to cause harm to his fellow solders is like driving 150 mph down the interstate, then hitting and killing someone, and then saying, "Sorry, I didn't mean to kill anyone". Somehow, I don't think that would be your get out of court free card.
If I sail my boat out into a storm as idiots did with Harvey and the Coast Guard has to rescue me, and god forbid one of them dies, normally I will not be thrown in jail. If a patrol gets lost and captured by the enemy, do we court-martial them for being dumb?
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

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gbasden wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:32 pm. If a patrol gets lost and captured by the enemy, do we court-martial them for being dumb?
Sometimes. There will be an investigation which can lead to a court martial.
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Isgrimnur »

CNN
President Donald Trump's comments deriding Bowe Bergdahl throughout his repatriation and trial did not constitute unlawful command influence, an Army appeals court found in a ruling released Tuesday.

In a 2-1 decision, three Army Court of Criminal Appeals judges at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, rejected Bergdahl's claim that Trump's public description of him as "a no-good traitor who should have been executed" and other comments influenced the case's decisions or outcomes, and warranted possible reconsideration or clemency.

"Although there was some evidence of unlawful command influence adduced at trial and in the post-trial process, the government met its burden to demonstrate that an objective disinterested observer would not harbor a significant doubt as to the fairness of the proceedings," the opinion stated.

Bergdahl's lead counsel, Eugene Fidell, told CNN Wednesday, "We are confident that one judge saw the UCI issue our way. We will be seeking review by the US Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, and we are working actively on the required papers."
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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em2nought
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by em2nought »

It would be absolutely delicious if Trump transitioned to a woman and became the first woman President. If he stayed married to Melania he could also be the first lesbian President. Oops never mind, I'm thinking of Chelsea Manning. I'm getting my traitors confused. :doh:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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hepcat
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by hepcat »

You really seem fixated on gender reassignment surgery lately. :think:
Covfefe!
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$iljanus
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by $iljanus »

hepcat wrote:You really seem fixated on gender reassignment surgery lately. :think:
I do like to think we're a safe space for people to explore various aspects of themselves.
Black lives matter!

Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
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Remus West
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by Remus West »

em2nought wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:10 am It would be absolutely delicious if Trump transitioned to a woman and became the first woman President. If he stayed married to Melania he could also be the first lesbian President. Oops never mind, I'm thinking of Chelsea Manning. I'm getting my traitors confused. :doh:
Well, admitting that tRump is a traitor is a good first step regardless.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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hepcat
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Re: Bowe Bergdahl, Sole Afghan POW

Post by hepcat »

I think you need to show a little compassion here. em2 is obviously crying out for help with a very personal issue these last few weeks.
Covfefe!
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