Religion Randomness

[Moliere]

South Park "Starvin Marvin"
reading bible plus accepting Jesus = food

[Holman]

According to the fundies, the Rapture is starting tomorrow. Does that mean I don't have to go to my business meeting on Sunday?

It's only the fringe of a minority that believes that.

Most fundamentalists know that a just God will not deny them President Pence.

[Rip]

Makes it sound like they're being really nice, but then you kind of realize it's a perfect opportunity to take advantage of some really beaten down, vulnerable people and get some recruiting in. It's always easier to snag some new followers if you can catch them at rock bottom.

One does not preclude the other. You can have several motivations in anything you do. Christ called his followers both to help people and spread his gospel. As long as aid is not contingent on someone converting or even listening, I see nothing to object to.

It's also possible to just render aid without stuffing your beliefs into the sandwich.

It is also possible to just sit on the sidelines espousing your beliefs while providing no sandwich.

Something something gift horses something mouths.

[Chrisoc13]

Makes it sound like they're being really nice, but then you kind of realize it's a perfect opportunity to take advantage of some really beaten down, vulnerable people and get some recruiting in. It's always easier to snag some new followers if you can catch them at rock bottom.

One does not preclude the other. You can have several motivations in anything you do. Christ called his followers both to help people and spread his gospel. As long as aid is not contingent on someone converting or even listening, I see nothing to object to.

It's also possible to just render aid without stuffing your beliefs into the sandwich.

Sure, but there's nothing wrong with sharing with people about what you believe is very important. In fact, it would hypocritical and dishonest to not do so. If one believes that there is an eternal destination for people, and that there is a God who loves them, then just providing them food and shelter when there are issues such as this would be negligent if not immoral not so share this with them according to one's own beliefs. People are free to listen or not.

I think this is an interesting point in the discussion. For people who truly believe in their faith, if they believe that their faith has the power to save someone's soul, to not share it is far worse in the eyes of believers. I can see both sides of the argument, because I've had plenty of people try to "save" me, and it can be really irritating. But on the other hand for people who truly believe their faith has the power to save, and that salvation is necessary, to not share it with others would be wrong. They have no choice at that point. It becomes an obligation to at least invite others to listen.

[Jaymann]

According to the fundies, the Rapture is starting tomorrow. Does that mean I don't have to go to my business meeting on Sunday?

So the Rapture didn't happen - not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed. And our meeting was held in a church. I had to suppress the urge to make a joke about people ascending during the meeting.

[Max Peck]

According to the fundies, the Rapture is starting tomorrow. Does that mean I don't have to go to my business meeting on Sunday?

So the Rapture didn't happen - not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed. And our meeting was held in a church. I had to suppress the urge to make a joke about people ascending during the meeting.

What if The Rapture® did happen, but nobody was worthy?

[GreenGoo]

According to the fundies, the Rapture is starting tomorrow. Does that mean I don't have to go to my business meeting on Sunday?

So the Rapture didn't happen - not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed. And our meeting was held in a church. I had to suppress the urge to make a joke about people ascending during the meeting.

What if The Rapture® did happen, but nobody was worthy?

Expect flooding in the near future? Time to build a very large boat? How do you feel about animals? Or incest?

[Paingod]

Makes it sound like they're being really nice, but then you kind of realize it's a perfect opportunity to take advantage of some really beaten down, vulnerable people and get some recruiting in. It's always easier to snag some new followers if you can catch them at rock bottom.

One does not preclude the other. You can have several motivations in anything you do. Christ called his followers both to help people and spread his gospel. As long as aid is not contingent on someone converting or even listening, I see nothing to object to.

It's also possible to just render aid without stuffing your beliefs into the sandwich.

Sure, but there's nothing wrong with sharing with people about what you believe is very important. In fact, it would hypocritical and dishonest to not do so. If one believes that there is an eternal destination for people, and that there is a God who loves them, then just providing them food and shelter when there are issues such as this would be negligent if not immoral not so share this with them according to one's own beliefs. People are free to listen or not.

People lining up to receive aid because they have nothing left aren't "free to listen or not" - they're a captive audience. I personally believe that it's amoral and reprehensible for someone to try and recruit people who can't walk away and are at an extremely low point in their lives. It's how pimps find prostitutes and how religions find converts. If what you were selling was actually worth buying, you wouldn't need to preach to the desperate and downtrodden. They'd be seeking you out. To each their own.

Not much point in arguing. You know you're right in trying to "save" them. I know you're wrong to abuse their situation.

[hepcat]

According to the fundies, the Rapture is starting tomorrow. Does that mean I don't have to go to my business meeting on Sunday?

So the Rapture didn't happen - not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed. And our meeting was held in a church. I had to suppress the urge to make a joke about people ascending during the meeting.

I was looking for a place that would have the highest chances of saintly folks ascending to the heavens on that day, but the only places near my apartment with large enough numbers are churches.

[Max Peck]

According to the fundies, the Rapture is starting tomorrow. Does that mean I don't have to go to my business meeting on Sunday?

So the Rapture didn't happen - not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed. And our meeting was held in a church. I had to suppress the urge to make a joke about people ascending during the meeting.

What if The Rapture® did happen, but nobody was worthy?

Expect flooding in the near future? Time to build a very large boat? How do you feel about animals? Or incest?

All I know is that it is hot as hell this week, and the heat wave seems to have triggered a flypocalypse in my apartment building. If I remember my Sunday school lessons aright, then those are clear signs of the End Times®.

[GreenGoo]

I am absolutely miserable in this heat, and taking it out on the world in general. I remember when breaking 30C could be counted on 2 hands for the entire year (note: I am unsure this is true. It FEELS true, so I'm going with it). End of September is supposed to be 15-18C with a cool breeze and leaves changing.

This is NOT how I expect my favourite season to behave.

[LawBeefaroni]

We're looking at 32c (91f) for almost a full week here. Should have relief by Thursday when we dip all the way down to the mid 70s. September may have been hotter than July. We certainly had more 90+ days.

[Max Peck]

We're looking at 32c (91f) for almost a full week here. Should have relief by Thursday when we dip all the way down to the mid 70s. September may have been hotter than July. We certainly had more 90+ days.

That's pretty much what we're seeing here this week; temperatures of around 32C, with the humidex hitting 40C. The forecast is for the heat wave to break on Wednesday or Thursday, with a return to seasonal temperatures by the weekend, FSM willing (to get back on topic).

[LawBeefaroni]

We're looking at 32c (91f) for almost a full week here. Should have relief by Thursday when we dip all the way down to the mid 70s. September may have been hotter than July. We certainly had more 90+ days.

That's pretty much what we're seeing here this week; temperatures of around 32C, with the humidex hitting 40C. The forecast is for the heat wave to break on Wednesday or Thursday, with a return to seasonal temperatures by the weekend, FSM willing (to get back on topic).

Oh, so you're of the FSM-controls-the-weather sect? May He have mercy on your misguided meatballs.

[GreenGoo]

Time for another reformation. Anyone got a hammer? Or maybe a pasta spoon?

[noxiousdog]

There were a ton of religious organizations that were doing flood assistance. All I got was food, labor, condolences, and well wishes. I think any proselytizing was overly exaggerated. I didn't even get any prayers from them. All that was random folk on the facebook.

[Remus West]

I am absolutely miserable in this heat, and taking it out on the world in general. I remember when breaking 30C could be counted on 2 hands for the entire year (note: I am unsure this is true. It FEELS true, so I'm going with it). End of September is supposed to be 15-18C with a cool breeze and leaves changing.

This is NOT how I expect my favourite season to behave.

God bless this post for its truth.

I want me some real Fall weather please.

[GreenGoo]

There were a ton of religious organizations that were doing flood assistance. All I got was food, labor, condolences, and well wishes. I think any proselytizing was overly exaggerated. I didn't even get any prayers from them. All that was random folk on the facebook.

Who didn't really pray, they just said they would on facebook, because see what good people they are?

[Rip]

There were a ton of religious organizations that were doing flood assistance. All I got was food, labor, condolences, and well wishes. I think any proselytizing was overly exaggerated. I didn't even get any prayers from them. All that was random folk on the facebook.

Who didn't really pray, they just said they would on facebook, because see what good people they are?

I pray we find something more interesting to randomly discuss.


Or did I?

[GreenGoo]

Pray tell, did you?

[Moliere]

I will prey upon anyone that continues this conversation.

[Isgrimnur]

Raw Story

An evangelical church already under investigation for luring foreign believers to the U.S., where they were kept as virtual slaves, has been accused of encouraging parishioners to file fraudulent unemployment claims so they could keep tithing.

According to an Associated Press investigation, the founder of the Word of Faith Fellowship reportedly encouraged church members to defraud the government so that they could keep filling her coffers at Sunday services, saying it was “God’s plan.”

In an interview, contractor Randy Fields related how he appealed to church founder Jane Whaley to allow him to scale back his tithing because his business was faltering, only to have the religious leader encourage him to file fraudulent unemployment claims in the names of his employees.

According to the report, Fields was not alone, with multiple other church members — and fellowship employees – also admitting they committed fraud in the name of the church. The report goes on to note that the allegations are being investigated by the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
...
In June of this year, a church member admitted that she led approximately 30 parishioners from her church to attack and beat a gay member of the church in an effort to “expel his demons.”

[coopasonic]

In an interview, contractor Randy Fields related how he appealed to church founder Jane Whaley to allow him to scale back his tithing because his business was faltering, only to have the religious leader encourage him to file fraudulent unemployment claims in the names of his employees.

Someone explain this to me.... "allow him to scale back his tithing"

I'm curious is it a certain dollar amount to prevent going to hell or is it a percentage? I thought that was Scientology stuff.

[stessier]

Tithing is 10% of your income. I know it's very common among protestant denominations and trying to make a comeback in Catholic circles. Not sure about other faiths.

[coopasonic]

I didn't realize it was literally a tenth. Can you tell I never attended church after my sunday school days?

[Max Peck]

Someone explain this to me.... "allow him to scale back his tithing"

You could say that his mandatory donations to the church were financially decimating his business.

[Jaymann]

Someone explain this to me.... "allow him to scale back his tithing"

You could say that his mandatory donations to the church were financially decimating his business.

Beat me to it!

[Holman]

I didn't realize it was literally a tenth. Can you tell I never attended church after my sunday school days?

The etymology is "tenth," but none of the churches I've personally known ever declared a specific expectation.

Grifty scam churches? Sure. I'll bet they do.

[Pyperkub]

Tithing is 10% of your income. I know it's very common among protestant denominations and trying to make a comeback in Catholic circles. Not sure about other faiths.

I had thought it was mostly Mormons in the US.

[Holman]

Most churches of every stripe pass the plate weekly. That's how they pay the preacher and the secretary and the light bill and the janitor. (The Catholic church, as a massive and centralized international body, might do it differently.)

[Isgrimnur]

2015 article

Which brings us to today's big question: If almost no one at church tithes these days, and if among those few who do, many are in better-than-average financial shape, does this mean that "only rich folks tithe"?

That seems to be the gist of what MarketWatch resident financial expert Quentin Fottrell argues. According to Fottrell, people who tithe 10 percent or more of their income to church are a rare and well-off bunch. Simply put, they tithe because they can afford it -- but most of us cannot.
...
MarketWatch bases this argument on research in a 2013 "State of the Plate" research report sponsored by such organizations as Christianity Today and the Evangelical Christian Credit Union.

This report, currently the most comprehensive research available on trends in tithing among churchgoers, tends to support MarketWatch's take. For example, statistics cited in "State of the Plate" confirm that churchgoers who tithe do have their finances in better order than those who do not tithe. For example, they are:

• 40 percent less likely (15 percent versus 25 percent) than the average churchgoer to owe significant debt (more than $50,000).
• Only half as likely (20 percent vs. 40 percent) to be overdue on their credit cards.
• Twice as likely to be entirely debt-free (28 percent versus 13 percent).

But as well off as they may be, there aren't a lot of tithers. In fact, out of the U.S. population of 315 million (circa 2013), State of the Plate says only 10 million people tithed 10 percent or more of their income.

That "10 million" is an interesting number. Gallup polling data show that 43 percent of Americans attended church weekly (or nearly so) in 2013. Out of a population of 315 million, that's roughly 135 million souls.

State of the Plate estimates 10 million of these people tithed 10 percent of their income, implying only 7.4 percent of professed churchgoers are tithing 10 percent. What's more, out of the whole U.S. population, this suggests that barely 3 percent of us tithe 10 percent or more.

And yet, State of the Plate reports that these 10 million tithers donate more than $50 billion annually to their churches.
...
State of the Plate reports that 77 percent of tithers polled do give more than 10 percent on Sunday. Specifically, 23 percent give 10 percent, but:

• 54 percent give between 11 and 15 percent.
• 14 percent "tithe" 16 to 20 percent.
• and 9 percent give 20 percent or more.

[Pyperkub]

Saw a chalk statement on campus today:

Zionism = Racism

Can someone point me towards a definition of Zionism for this point? Or any, really?

[Holman]

2015 article

Which brings us to today's big question: If almost no one at church tithes these days, and if among those few who do, many are in better-than-average financial shape, does this mean that "only rich folks tithe"?

That seems to be the gist of what MarketWatch resident financial expert Quentin Fottrell argues. According to Fottrell, people who tithe 10 percent or more of their income to church are a rare and well-off bunch. Simply put, they tithe because they can afford it -- but most of us cannot.
...
MarketWatch bases this argument on research in a 2013 "State of the Plate" research report sponsored by such organizations as Christianity Today and the Evangelical Christian Credit Union.

This report, currently the most comprehensive research available on trends in tithing among churchgoers, tends to support MarketWatch's take. For example, statistics cited in "State of the Plate" confirm that churchgoers who tithe do have their finances in better order than those who do not tithe. For example, they are:

• 40 percent less likely (15 percent versus 25 percent) than the average churchgoer to owe significant debt (more than $50,000).
• Only half as likely (20 percent vs. 40 percent) to be overdue on their credit cards.
• Twice as likely to be entirely debt-free (28 percent versus 13 percent).

But as well off as they may be, there aren't a lot of tithers. In fact, out of the U.S. population of 315 million (circa 2013), State of the Plate says only 10 million people tithed 10 percent or more of their income.

That "10 million" is an interesting number. Gallup polling data show that 43 percent of Americans attended church weekly (or nearly so) in 2013. Out of a population of 315 million, that's roughly 135 million souls.

State of the Plate estimates 10 million of these people tithed 10 percent of their income, implying only 7.4 percent of professed churchgoers are tithing 10 percent. What's more, out of the whole U.S. population, this suggests that barely 3 percent of us tithe 10 percent or more.

And yet, State of the Plate reports that these 10 million tithers donate more than $50 billion annually to their churches.
...
State of the Plate reports that 77 percent of tithers polled do give more than 10 percent on Sunday. Specifically, 23 percent give 10 percent, but:

• 54 percent give between 11 and 15 percent.
• 14 percent "tithe" 16 to 20 percent.
• and 9 percent give 20 percent or more.

I grew up in suburban (Atlanta, Birmingham) conservative evangelical churches in generally well-to-do neighborhoods. There were always a few very wealthy congregants who gave very generously (as in "enough to build the new auditorium" generously).

In theory they were anonymous, but everyone knew. It produced great social status, but the tax write-off was surely at least as significant.

[Holman]

Can someone point me towards a definition of Zionism for this point? Or any, really?

Basically it means Netanyahu's support for West Bank settlements.

[Holman]

2015 article

[...]
State of the Plate reports that 77 percent of tithers polled do give more than 10 percent on Sunday. Specifically, 23 percent give 10 percent, but:

• 54 percent give between 11 and 15 percent.
• 14 percent "tithe" 16 to 20 percent.
• and 9 percent give 20 percent or more.

Incidentally, is this pattern the basis for the claim that conservatives give more to charity than liberals?

Does donating to pay the preacher's mortgage count the same as giving to Oxfam?

[Default]

Most churches of every stripe pass the plate weekly. That's how they pay the preacher and the secretary and the light bill and the janitor. (The Catholic church, as a massive and centralized international body, might do it differently.)

My ex's church does it electronically. The last time I was in there, the impression I got was <$50 was physically collected.

[Isgrimnur]

Texas

The Freedom From Religion Foundation has prevailed in federal court against Texas Governor Greg Abbott, who ordered the removal of FFRF’s winter solstice Bill of Rights Nativity from the Texas Capitol in 2015.

In his decision, handed down late on Friday, Oct. 13, U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks for the Western District of Texas – Austin Division, ruled that Abbott violated FFRF’s free speech rights.

FFRF had placed a duly permitted display celebrating the Winter Solstice and Bill of Rights Day, in response to a Christian nativity at the Texas Capitol. The display, depicting founding fathers and the Statue of Liberty celebrating the birth of the Bill of Rights (adopted Dec. 15, 1791), had the requisite sponsorship from a Texas legislator.

Abbott, as chair of the Texas State Preservation Board, ordered FFRF’s display taken down only three days after it was erected, lambasting it as indecent, mocking and contributing to public immorality.

"Defendants have justified removal of FFRF's exhibit by arguing the exhibit's satirical tone rendered it offensive to some portion of the population. That is viewpoint discrimination,” writes Sparks in a 24-page ruling. The court also held that a reasonable official in Governor Abbott's position would have known that removing FFRF's display based on its viewpoint would violate FFRF's First Amendment rights, thus FFRF can sue Governor Abbott in his personal capacity.
...
Sparks did not find that Abbott’s actions violated the Establishment Clause, but also ruled in FFRF’s favor that FFRF has the right to depose the governor for one hour. Abbott had fought the request for a deposition.

[Zarathud]

The Satanists are going to have some fun with this precedent.

[Kraken]

Is that George Washington taking a knee?

[Moliere]

Austria burqa ban: PR agency told man to dress as shark to violate new law

A man dressed as a shark has been fined under new anti-burqa laws in Austria. A PR agency has admitted the incident was a stunt designed to make a "socially relevant" point.

Austrian PR agency Warda Network has admitted it told one of its employees to dress as a shark to challenge the country's new anti-burqa laws.

Police had confronted a man on Friday after he was seen promoting a new outlet of the McShark electronics store in Vienna in a costume that covered his face. When he refused to remove his shark head, he was given a fine of €150 ($176).