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Religion Randomness

For discussion of religion and politics

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Holman
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Holman » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Of course it runs smack up against religious identity. It's a very difficult issue.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:10 pm

Fitzy wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:02 pm
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:45 pm
Is circumcision bad? I wasn't aware of any medical issues. :?
There are arguments that it is as bad or worse than female genital mutilation. Which is ridiculous. Possibly more realistic, there's an argument that it diminishes sexual pleasure in men. However, the only men who would know would be those who kept the foreskin and had it chopped when an adult. So who freaking knows.
You should know better by now.

NCBI
African countries with high HIV rates have seen the largest bump in adult circumcision in recent years, following clinical trials in South Africa, Kenya and Uganda that found circumcised men are 51%–60% less likely to contract the virus from heterosexual intercourse than their intact countrymen (PLoS Med 2: e298. doi: 10.1371/journal.pmed.0020298 and Lancet 2007;369:643–56 and Lancet 2007; 369:657–66).
...
Morris has written extensively on the health benefits of circumcision, claiming in one paper that it is a “biomedical imperative” (BioEssays 29:1147–58). The data from the African trials, he notes, has convinced several international organizations to support mass circumcision. “In March 2007, the WHO [World Health Organisation] therefore endorsed circumcision as an important additional weapon in the fight against AIDS,” he states in the paper. “The WHO, UNAIDS and others have done projections estimating the millions of lives that will be saved by implementation of circumcision, which has been equated to an effective vaccine.”
...
Another reason some adults opt for circumcision, even if they don’t have operational issues, is religious conversion. Men entering the Jewish faith, for instance, are encouraged to lose their member-hoods. In one study of 42 men circumcised as adults, 39 cited religious reasons (Urology 2004;63:155–8). The participants reported no statistically significant adverse effects after their operations, though there was an increase in their “ejaculatory latency” (the time it took them to ejaculate during sex), which the authors concluded “can be considered an advantage rather than a complication.”

Other studies, however, did find some negative effects. In one, which mostly included men seeking circumcision for health problems such as phimosis, balantis and condyloma, 32% of participants reported problems, including a decrease in erectile function and sensitivity (J Urol 2002; 167:2113–6). In another study, 20% of circumcised adults said their sex lives had worsened and 48% reported a decrease in pleasure from masturbation (BJUI 2007; 99:619–22).

The latter study was conducted in South Korea, which may be the only country on earth where the majority of men are circumcised but not as infants, and do so for reasons unrelated to health, religion or aesthetics. According to one paper, almost 85% of males 16–39 years old are circumcised in South Korea, the vast majority around the age of 12 (BJUI 1999;83:28–33).

No one can say for certain how the country came to embrace circumcision so quickly — the procedure was basically unheard of there in the 1940s — though the prevailing theory is that South Korean men were influenced by circumcised American soldiers during the Korean War in the 1950s. “Within a decade, South Koreans came to believe that practicing circumcision was ‘advanced and modern,’ just like the American soldiers,” US sexologist Robert Francoeur wrote (http://gkorea.nayana.com/s1.html). “If Americans did it, it must be good.”
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by gbasden » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:23 pm

I personally believe that it should be up to the individual. We chose not to circumcise our son, figuring that he could choose to do so if he wanted to.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:42 pm

Moliere wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:56 pm
If someone wants to cut the tip of his junk off let him make the decision, not have it done before he can consent.
It seems there are numerous health benefits though. We do a LOT of things to babies without their consent in the name of health. Vaccines, etc..
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Smoove_B » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:51 pm

There's still more research to be done, but in terms of heterosexual encounters, there does seem to be a benefit to the procedure (for STI reduction). It is unclear whether that benefit extends into homosexual encounters, but biologically I believe the science suggests it should (or at least, there's no reason it shouldn't).

The only thing that the CDC (and the state of NY) has taken a stronger position on is the religious practice of circumcision that involves direct oral suction. Yes, it's safe for work.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Moliere » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:49 pm

Circumcision (male) via the Mayo Clinic.
Circumcision might have various health benefits, including:

Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it simpler to wash the penis. However, boys with uncircumcised penises can be taught to wash regularly beneath the foreskin.

Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. The risk of urinary tract infections in males is low, but these infections are more common in uncircumcised males. Severe infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later.

Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections. Circumcised men might have a lower risk of certain sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. Still, safe sexual practices remain essential.

Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis can be difficult or impossible to retract (phimosis). This can lead to inflammation of the foreskin or head of the penis.

Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although cancer of the penis is rare, it's less common in circumcised men. In addition, cervical cancer is less common in the female sexual partners of circumcised men.
None of these seem particularly urgent that I would compare circumcision to vaccines. The procedure can wait until they are old enough to consent. Vaccinations protect the baby and others from serious diseases before they have a chance to formally consent.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:58 pm

Yawn. Given the millennial old practice, do it or not to your kids.

This is a non-issue. It particularly funny hearing Moliere advocate that others not make the decision for their own children, given his sig quote.

Is there a huge contingent of males mourning the loss of their foreskins? If so, their grievance is with their parents, not society.

Good luck with that.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Fitzy » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:57 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:10 pm
Fitzy wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:02 pm
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:45 pm
Is circumcision bad? I wasn't aware of any medical issues. :?
There are arguments that it is as bad or worse than female genital mutilation. Which is ridiculous. Possibly more realistic, there's an argument that it diminishes sexual pleasure in men. However, the only men who would know would be those who kept the foreskin and had it chopped when an adult. So who freaking knows.
You should know better by now.

NCBI
clip
None of that covers sexual pleasure :whistle:

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Paingod » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:25 am

It made perfect sense when there was poor hygiene and no one understood bacteria. It made good sense when we were engaged in trench warfare and guys couldn't keep that area clean. Apparently it makes sense anywhere people are unclean.

In places where people have access to water, soap and a little money it's pretty damn easy to clean your penis and wear a rubber. There's no "need" to cut children up before they have a say in it. As such, I'm totally fine with it being banned in places where it's not going to help anything, but can cause harm. I think I'm like 70/30 as far as against/indifferent in those places.

We didn't elect to have our kids surgically altered at birth. So far this has lead to one fungal infection due to poor hygiene - which he learned from.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:01 am

Fitzy wrote: None of that covers sexual pleasure :whistle:
Paragraph 4 of the quote.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:10 am

Science vs Circumcisionsuper fun podcast series. This is the most recent episode. Aussie girl science reporter with puns? Swoon.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Fitzy » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:31 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:01 am
Fitzy wrote: None of that covers sexual pleasure :whistle:
Paragraph 4 of the quote.
:oops:

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:35 pm

:D
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:56 pm

tgb is an amateur mohel. We should check with him.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Remus West » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:37 pm

Not sure where to post this but just saw MM cancelled the Senate's August recess due to "historic obstruction by Senate Democrats of the president's nominees". Seriously, who the hell can possibly think this man is anything other than a cancer?
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:44 pm

Remus West wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:37 pm
Not sure where to post this but just saw MM cancelled the Senate's August recess due to "historic obstruction by Senate Democrats of the president's nominees". Seriously, who the hell can possibly think this man is anything other than a cancer?
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Holman » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:45 pm

Except that it provides more confirmation that Mitch McConnell can burn in Hell.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Unagi » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:46 pm

How he didn't choke on the phrase 'historic obstruction' is beyond comprehension.

Remus West wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:37 pm
Not sure where to post this but...
I assume you are pointing out something that helps cement your atheism?

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Remus West » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 am

I'll be as random as I damned well want to be.

There. I included a "cuss" word. Is that religious enough you self-sanctified bunch of forum fanatics. :P

Also, oops. :lol:
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hitbyambulance » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 pm

Remus West wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:44 pm
Seriously? You applaud the idea of making it illegal to circumsize your child? Or is that a sarcastic clap? Because circumsision can make it less likely you get the clap. Among other health benefits.
i'd like to think humanity as a whole has become slightly more enlightened. if you think you have to surgically remove a piece of non-diseased, non-deformed anatomy at birth because 'potential health benefits", you're doing it wrong.

what other parts of the body is it considered necessary to chop off at birth (and for one sex only, at that)?

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by em2nought » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:05 am

Paingod wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:25 am
It made perfect sense when there was poor hygiene and no one understood bacteria. It made good sense when we were engaged in trench warfare and guys couldn't keep that area clean. Apparently it makes sense anywhere people are unclean.

In places where people have access to water, soap and a little money it's pretty damn easy to clean your penis and wear a rubber. There's no "need" to cut children up before they have a say in it. As such, I'm totally fine with it being banned in places where it's not going to help anything, but can cause harm. I think I'm like 70/30 as far as against/indifferent in those places.

We didn't elect to have our kids surgically altered at birth. So far this has lead to one fungal infection due to poor hygiene - which he learned from.
I wonder how under reported that kind of thing is? I have a friend whose kid had cleanliness problems down there. He finally had his trimmed when he was around eighteen. He was not a happy camper for a few weeks.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:51 am

Wait until it's vasectomy time.

...yeah, yeah, lots go perfectly smoothly with little issue.

Many don't.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Remus West » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:29 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:51 am
Wait until it's vasectomy time.

...yeah, yeah, lots go perfectly smoothly with little issue.

Many don't.
I was able to go coach a volleyball tournament the very next day. Other than driving home with an ice bag on my crotch I really wasn't too uncomfortable. A buddy of mine told me when he had his he was bedridden in pain for 3 days!
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Remus West » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:31 am

hitbyambulance wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 pm
Remus West wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:44 pm
Seriously? You applaud the idea of making it illegal to circumsize your child? Or is that a sarcastic clap? Because circumsision can make it less likely you get the clap. Among other health benefits.
i'd like to think humanity as a whole has become slightly more enlightened. if you think you have to surgically remove a piece of non-diseased, non-deformed anatomy at birth because 'potential health benefits", you're doing it wrong.

what other parts of the body is it considered necessary to chop off at birth (and for one sex only, at that)?
Its not that I think he need be "required". I thik requiring it would be just as stupid as making it illegal. On the other hand I'd be perfectly fine with making it illegal to NOT vaccinate.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:42 am

hitbyambulance wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 pm
i'd like to think humanity as a whole has become slightly more enlightened. if you think you have to surgically remove a piece of non-diseased, non-deformed anatomy at birth because 'potential health benefits", you're doing it wrong.

what other parts of the body is it considered necessary to chop off at birth (and for one sex only, at that)?
A). It hasn't. Not that enlightenment or lack thereof is related in anyway to this topic.
B). We regularly perform other elective surgeries like work on ears. Shrug.

It's a small piece of skin. It's not a limb. Who gives a crap what other people decide is best for their child? Why not outlaw pierced ears while we're at it?

If a parent decides they want it done for purely cosmetic reasons or health reasons or religious reasons or literally any reason whatsoever, so be it. Arguing back and forth about "need" is legitimising the idea that other people get a say in what you decide regarding your own kids re: this topic. They don't.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Unagi » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:48 am

I was circumcised. As was pretty much every kid whose penis I ever had chance to glance throughout my youth growing up. The first time I saw an uncircumcised penis (probably college, some guy skinny dipping on a camping trip or something) - I'll admit it looked a bit alien.

Likewise; many girlfriends growing up, as did my wife - all made unsolicited comments on uncircumcised penises - as they were also clearly more exposed to circumcised penises.
None of that is a comment on the right or wrong, just the area I live, and how common it was.

I've never found it to be a problem with sex (I really enjoy sex, quite enough).
I've heard about the hygiene benefit, but it wasn't anything that sounded paramount.

We circumcised my son, at birth - and the main reason was simply this: To look like dad. /shrug and then, I think in my wife's eyes: To have a "normal" penis (which, of course, is technically totally the opposite, but you get my point).

Perhaps that's wrong headed. But I know I was happy that I 'looked like dad' down there.

Maybe, on some level, it was also to not get behind "Circumcising Penises Is Mutilation" , because I didn't feel like my Dad was mutilated and I never once felt that I was mutilated.


That being said, I feel the female's equivalent is horrible. (double standard?)


I'm also a huge Christopher Hitchens fan, and he was big against either forms -- and I struggled to fall in line with that -- but he was as close as I've come to hearing the argument against circumcision.


OK, well - I've just given more "penises I've seen" quotes than I ever planned on ever writing, but there ya have it.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Remus West » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:56 am

The difference between male and female "circumcision" to my knowledge is that the female version has zero health benefits and removes the ability to enjoy sex. I admit to not having read up on it though so I could be wrong.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:58 am

Aside from cutting off the labia majora, they will often cut off the tip of the clitoris. This is all done about the time a girl comes of age, often with a sharp rock and no anesthesia or pain medication of any kind.

While both are called "circumcision" they are not at all the same. The same word is used to hide the female mutilation under the "respectability" of the male circumcision.

One is like cutting small connective tissue between the ear lobe and the neck/jawline with a scalpel, while the other is like cutting off the ear with a rusty axe.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Holman » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:49 am

I believe I'm against banning male circumcision (which, as has been pointed out, is very different from female genital mutilation). While it's true that it is "unnatural" to remove the foreskin, it's a cultural marker of huge significance and has been so for millennia.

Suppose Christians had for some reason decided that Christian babies would have a small cross cut into the skin of their hand shortly after birth, just deep enough to make a lifetime scar. Yes, this sounds weird when I make it up right now, but suppose that culture and history and theology had conspired to make it THE mark of Christian birth and Christian belonging, and suppose that nearly 100% of people in the religion had proudly adhered to custom from the very beginning until today. Suppose also that many non-Christians had adopted a version of the practice simply because it seemed normal through centuries of familiarity.

As far as I can see, the only difference between this scenario and male circumcision is the possible loss of sexual feeling associated with the latter. Honestly, though, how much do we know about the lived experience of that? Do uncircumcised guys report a significantly difference experience of sex than circumcised ones?

FWIW, I was circumcised like most kids in my generation, but we opted against it for our boys simply because it seemed like a hassle. We explained to them was foreskin care means and why many people don't have one, and there seems to be no weirdness about it.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Paingod » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am

Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by noxiousdog » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:32 am

Paingod wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am
Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.
I agree with you, but I think the only reason it is an issue is because it's a near a sex organ. Unless we plan on outlawing ear piercings for anyone under 18, I don't think this is something government should be involved in.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Remus West » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:39 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:32 am
Unless we plan on outlawing ear piercings for anyone under 18, I don't think this is something government should be involved in.
Fully agree with this. I really don't care if folks choose not to circumsize their boys. I just don't want to legislate that they can not.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Holman » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:46 am

Paingod wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am
Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.
But it's not as simple as "just a tradition." It's a core marker of identity for Jews and Muslims and some other groups.

More to the point, to make a law about it is a case of the majority saying "You minority types must stop doing this thing you consider important because we don't like it."

There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for that other than "Hey, stagnation is bad." The IT metaphor just doesn't apply here.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:28 pm

I'm surprised that a libertarian who has railed against government interference in parenting would now endorse that very thing.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Moliere » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:39 pm

Anyone read "Long Walk to Freedom"? Mandela has a bit in there about being circumcised as a teenager, which is the traditional African way, I believe.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:07 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:45 pm
ABC
A proposal to erect a satanic monument on the Arkansas state Capitol grounds has advanced to a public hearing.
Arkansas
Via press release from the Satanic Temple:

The Satanic Temple’s infamous Baphomet statue will make an appearance at the Arkansas state Capitol on August 16th from 1-3pm during “The Satanic Temple’s Rally for the First Amendment.” The rally is intended to bring together religious leaders of different faiths to discuss the importance of the First Amendment and its protection for religious pluralism as being essential to preserve American democracy.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Carpet_pissr » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:03 pm

Sessions announces 'religious liberty task force'

That sounds so fucking sinister. Just call it what it is, you creepy little shitbag: Christian Liberty Task Force

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Toe » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:11 pm

Holman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:46 am
Paingod wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am
Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.
But it's not as simple as "just a tradition." It's a core marker of identity for Jews and Muslims and some other groups.

More to the point, to make a law about it is a case of the majority saying "You minority types must stop doing this thing you consider important because we don't like it."

There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for that other than "Hey, stagnation is bad." The IT metaphor just doesn't apply here.
A core marker? A shame that this mutilation is done to a child that has not decided if he wants to identify as a jew or muslim isn't it then? It smacks of "Hey kid, you might not want to be a jew when you are mature, but you are damn well gonna look like one for the rest of your life." One of my father's only regrets in life was getting me and my brothers circumcised.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Holman » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:22 pm

Toe wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:11 pm
Holman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:46 am
Paingod wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am
Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.
But it's not as simple as "just a tradition." It's a core marker of identity for Jews and Muslims and some other groups.

More to the point, to make a law about it is a case of the majority saying "You minority types must stop doing this thing you consider important because we don't like it."

There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for that other than "Hey, stagnation is bad." The IT metaphor just doesn't apply here.
A core marker? A shame that this mutilation is done to a child that has not decided if he wants to identify as a jew or muslim isn't it then? It smacks of "Hey kid, you might not want to be a jew when you are mature, but you are damn well gonna look like one for the rest of your life." One of my father's only regrets in life was getting me and my brothers circumcised.
That's... really something your father powerfully regrets?

My parents had me circumcised simply because it was what everybody did. They were white Christians in Atlanta in 1968. It was the 100% normal procedure. I'm pretty sure they haven't thought twice about it since.

Regardless of what your father or my father thinks about what they did to our newborn dicks, the fact is that male circumcision has been culturally central to Jewish and Muslim identity for millennia, and it was the same for Christian (or even just Christian-adjacent) identity throughout the 20th century. Remember that before getting on a high horse about it.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:17 pm

Holman wrote:
Toe wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:11 pm
Holman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:46 am
Paingod wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am
Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.
But it's not as simple as "just a tradition." It's a core marker of identity for Jews and Muslims and some other groups.

More to the point, to make a law about it is a case of the majority saying "You minority types must stop doing this thing you consider important because we don't like it."

There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for that other than "Hey, stagnation is bad." The IT metaphor just doesn't apply here.
A core marker? A shame that this mutilation is done to a child that has not decided if he wants to identify as a jew or muslim isn't it then? It smacks of "Hey kid, you might not want to be a jew when you are mature, but you are damn well gonna look like one for the rest of your life." One of my father's only regrets in life was getting me and my brothers circumcised.
That's... really something your father powerfully regrets?

My parents had me circumcised simply because it was what everybody did. They were white Christians in Atlanta in 1968. It was the 100% normal procedure. I'm pretty sure they haven't thought twice about it since.

Regardless of what your father or my father thinks about what they did to our newborn dicks, the fact is that male circumcision has been culturally central to Jewish and Muslim identity for millennia, and it was the same for Christian (or even just Christian-adjacent) identity throughout the 20th century. Remember that before getting on a high horse about it.
That doesn't make it ok.

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