Octopus Overlords

Fitzy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:02 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:45 pm Is circumcision bad? I wasn't aware of any medical issues.

There are arguments that it is as bad or worse than female genital mutilation. Which is ridiculous. Possibly more realistic, there's an argument that it diminishes sexual pleasure in men. However, the only men who would know would be those who kept the foreskin and had it chopped when an adult. So who freaking knows.

African countries with high HIV rates have seen the largest bump in adult circumcision in recent years, following clinical trials in South Africa, Kenya and Uganda that found circumcised men are 51%–60% less likely to contract the virus from heterosexual intercourse than their intact countrymen (PLoS Med 2: e298. doi: 10.1371/journal.pmed.0020298 and Lancet 2007;369:643–56 and Lancet 2007; 369:657–66).
...
Morris has written extensively on the health benefits of circumcision, claiming in one paper that it is a “biomedical imperative” (BioEssays 29:1147–58). The data from the African trials, he notes, has convinced several international organizations to support mass circumcision. “In March 2007, the WHO [World Health Organisation] therefore endorsed circumcision as an important additional weapon in the fight against AIDS,” he states in the paper. “The WHO, UNAIDS and others have done projections estimating the millions of lives that will be saved by implementation of circumcision, which has been equated to an effective vaccine.”
...
Another reason some adults opt for circumcision, even if they don’t have operational issues, is religious conversion. Men entering the Jewish faith, for instance, are encouraged to lose their member-hoods. In one study of 42 men circumcised as adults, 39 cited religious reasons (Urology 2004;63:155–8). The participants reported no statistically significant adverse effects after their operations, though there was an increase in their “ejaculatory latency” (the time it took them to ejaculate during sex), which the authors concluded “can be considered an advantage rather than a complication.”

Other studies, however, did find some negative effects. In one, which mostly included men seeking circumcision for health problems such as phimosis, balantis and condyloma, 32% of participants reported problems, including a decrease in erectile function and sensitivity (J Urol 2002; 167:2113–6). In another study, 20% of circumcised adults said their sex lives had worsened and 48% reported a decrease in pleasure from masturbation (BJUI 2007; 99:619–22).

The latter study was conducted in South Korea, which may be the only country on earth where the majority of men are circumcised but not as infants, and do so for reasons unrelated to health, religion or aesthetics. According to one paper, almost 85% of males 16–39 years old are circumcised in South Korea, the vast majority around the age of 12 (BJUI 1999;83:28–33).

No one can say for certain how the country came to embrace circumcision so quickly — the procedure was basically unheard of there in the 1940s — though the prevailing theory is that South Korean men were influenced by circumcised American soldiers during the Korean War in the 1950s. “Within a decade, South Koreans came to believe that practicing circumcision was ‘advanced and modern,’ just like the American soldiers,” US sexologist Robert Francoeur wrote (http://gkorea.nayana.com/s1.html). “If Americans did it, it must be good.”

Moliere wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:56 pm If someone wants to cut the tip of his junk off let him make the decision, not have it done before he can consent.

Circumcision might have various health benefits, including:

Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it simpler to wash the penis. However, boys with uncircumcised penises can be taught to wash regularly beneath the foreskin.

Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. The risk of urinary tract infections in males is low, but these infections are more common in uncircumcised males. Severe infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later.

Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections. Circumcised men might have a lower risk of certain sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. Still, safe sexual practices remain essential.

Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis can be difficult or impossible to retract (phimosis). This can lead to inflammation of the foreskin or head of the penis.

Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although cancer of the penis is rare, it's less common in circumcised men. In addition, cervical cancer is less common in the female sexual partners of circumcised men.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:10 pm

Fitzy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:02 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:45 pm Is circumcision bad? I wasn't aware of any medical issues.

There are arguments that it is as bad or worse than female genital mutilation. Which is ridiculous. Possibly more realistic, there's an argument that it diminishes sexual pleasure in men. However, the only men who would know would be those who kept the foreskin and had it chopped when an adult. So who freaking knows.

You should know better by now.

NCBI

clip

Fitzy wrote: None of that covers sexual pleasure

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:01 am

Fitzy wrote: None of that covers sexual pleasure

Paragraph 4 of the quote.

Remus West wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:37 pm Not sure where to post this but just saw MM cancelled the Senate's August recess due to "historic obstruction by Senate Democrats of the president's nominees". Seriously, who the hell can possibly think this man is anything other than a cancer?

Remus West wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:37 pm Not sure where to post this but...

Remus West wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:44 pm Seriously? You applaud the idea of making it illegal to circumsize your child? Or is that a sarcastic clap? Because circumsision can make it less likely you get the clap. Among other health benefits.

Paingod wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:25 am It made perfect sense when there was poor hygiene and no one understood bacteria. It made good sense when we were engaged in trench warfare and guys couldn't keep that area clean. Apparently it makes sense anywhere people are unclean.

In places where people have access to water, soap and a little money it's pretty damn easy to clean your penis and wear a rubber. There's no "need" to cut children up before they have a say in it. As such, I'm totally fine with it being banned in places where it's not going to help anything, but can cause harm. I think I'm like 70/30 as far as against/indifferent in those places.

We didn't elect to have our kids surgically altered at birth. So far this has lead to one fungal infection due to poor hygiene - which he learned from.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:51 am Wait until it's vasectomy time.

...yeah, yeah, lots go perfectly smoothly with little issue.

Many don't.

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 pm

Remus West wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:44 pm Seriously? You applaud the idea of making it illegal to circumsize your child? Or is that a sarcastic clap? Because circumsision can make it less likely you get the clap. Among other health benefits.

i'd like to think humanity as a whole has become slightly more enlightened. if you think you have to surgically remove a piece of non-diseased, non-deformed anatomy at birth because 'potential health benefits", you're doing it wrong.

what other parts of the body is it considered necessary to chop off at birth (and for one sex only, at that)?

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 pm i'd like to think humanity as a whole has become slightly more enlightened. if you think you have to surgically remove a piece of non-diseased, non-deformed anatomy at birth because 'potential health benefits", you're doing it wrong.

what other parts of the body is it considered necessary to chop off at birth (and for one sex only, at that)?

Paingod wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:32 amUnless we plan on outlawing ear piercings for anyone under 18, I don't think this is something government should be involved in.

Paingod wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:45 pm ABC

A proposal to erect a satanic monument on the Arkansas state Capitol grounds has advanced to a public hearing.

Via press release from the Satanic Temple:

The Satanic Temple’s infamous Baphomet statue will make an appearance at the Arkansas state Capitol on August 16th from 1-3pm during “The Satanic Temple’s Rally for the First Amendment.” The rally is intended to bring together religious leaders of different faiths to discuss the importance of the First Amendment and its protection for religious pluralism as being essential to preserve American democracy.

Holman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:46 am

Paingod wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.

But it's not as simple as "just a tradition." It's a core marker of identity for Jews and Muslims and some other groups.

More to the point, to make a law about it is a case of the majority saying "You minority types must stop doing this thing you consider important because we don't like it."

There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for that other than "Hey, stagnation is bad." The IT metaphor just doesn't apply here.

Toe wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:11 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:46 am

Paingod wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.

But it's not as simple as "just a tradition." It's a core marker of identity for Jews and Muslims and some other groups.

More to the point, to make a law about it is a case of the majority saying "You minority types must stop doing this thing you consider important because we don't like it."

There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for that other than "Hey, stagnation is bad." The IT metaphor just doesn't apply here.

A core marker? A shame that this mutilation is done to a child that has not decided if he wants to identify as a jew or muslim isn't it then? It smacks of "Hey kid, you might not want to be a jew when you are mature, but you are damn well gonna look like one for the rest of your life." One of my father's only regrets in life was getting me and my brothers circumcised.

Holman wrote:

Toe wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:11 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:46 am

Paingod wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am Something I like to apply to all segments of my life is a concept of "don't just keep doing something because you've always done it that way" - mostly I do this at work because stagnation in IT is death, but have found it applies everywhere. I always need a good reason to keep a tradition, not just the fact that it's a tradition.

I suppose I think the same way about circumcision.

But it's not as simple as "just a tradition." It's a core marker of identity for Jews and Muslims and some other groups.

More to the point, to make a law about it is a case of the majority saying "You minority types must stop doing this thing you consider important because we don't like it."

There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for that other than "Hey, stagnation is bad." The IT metaphor just doesn't apply here.

A core marker? A shame that this mutilation is done to a child that has not decided if he wants to identify as a jew or muslim isn't it then? It smacks of "Hey kid, you might not want to be a jew when you are mature, but you are damn well gonna look like one for the rest of your life." One of my father's only regrets in life was getting me and my brothers circumcised.

That's... really something your father powerfully regrets?

My parents had me circumcised simply because it was what everybody did. They were white Christians in Atlanta in 1968. It was the 100% normal procedure. I'm pretty sure they haven't thought twice about it since.

Regardless of what your father or my father thinks about what they did to our newborn dicks, the fact is that male circumcision has been culturally central to Jewish and Muslim identity for millennia, and it was the same for Christian (or even just Christian-adjacent) identity throughout the 20th century. Remember that before getting on a high horse about it.