Octopus Overlords

The Associated Press wrote:The United States and Cuba have agreed to re-establish diplomatic relations and open economic and travel ties, marking a historic shift in U.S. policy toward the communist island after a half-century of enmity dating back to the Cold War, American officials said Wednesday.

The announcement came amid a series of sudden confidence-building measures between the longtime foes, including the release of American prisoner Alan Gross, as well as a swap for a U.S. intelligence asset held in Cuba and the freeing of three Cubans jailed in the U.S.

President Barack Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro were to separately address their nations around noon Wednesday. The two leaders spoke by phone for more than 45 minutes Tuesday, the first substantive presidential-level discussion between the U.S. and Cuba since 1961.

Wednesday's announcements followed more than a year of secret talks between U.S. and Cuban officials in Canada and the Vatican. U.S. officials said Pope Francis was personally engaged in the process and sent separate letters to Obama and Castro this summer urging them to restart relations.

Scraper wrote:And as per usual the Republicans are in an uproar about this move. Foxnews.com currently has a picture of old Castro with the headline "They WIn?" Predictable and yet sad since the Fox audience will step right in line with the message they want sent. I.E. nothing Obama does is good.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Scraper wrote:And as per usual the Republicans are in an uproar about this move. Foxnews.com currently has a picture of old Castro with the headline "They WIn?" Predictable and yet sad since the Fox audience will step right in line with the message they want sent. I.E. nothing Obama does is good.

I wonder what a US win would be if not normalized relations that lead to massive commercial opportunities for US businesses. Eternal sanctions? Nuking them?


Why is Il Papa so involved, BTW? Is some Da Cinci Code shit going down up in there?

Rip wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Scraper wrote:And as per usual the Republicans are in an uproar about this move. Foxnews.com currently has a picture of old Castro with the headline "They WIn?" Predictable and yet sad since the Fox audience will step right in line with the message they want sent. I.E. nothing Obama does is good.

I wonder what a US win would be if not normalized relations that lead to massive commercial opportunities for US businesses. Eternal sanctions? Nuking them?


Why is Il Papa so involved, BTW? Is some Da Cinci Code shit going down up in there?

Cuba having a representative government, maybe?

Rip wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Scraper wrote:And as per usual the Republicans are in an uproar about this move. Foxnews.com currently has a picture of old Castro with the headline "They WIn?" Predictable and yet sad since the Fox audience will step right in line with the message they want sent. I.E. nothing Obama does is good.

I wonder what a US win would be if not normalized relations that lead to massive commercial opportunities for US businesses. Eternal sanctions? Nuking them?


Why is Il Papa so involved, BTW? Is some Da Cinci Code shit going down up in there?

Cuba having a representative government, maybe?

Scraper wrote: Now Russia has no need to put missiles in Cuba.

Smoove_B wrote:

Scraper wrote: Now Russia has no need to put missiles in Cuba.

They might if the price of gas continues to decrease. As the Ruble implodes and they want access to our mother-fracking rigs in North Dakota, they might try anything.

Smoove_B wrote:

Scraper wrote: Now Russia has no need to put missiles in Cuba.

They might if the price of gas continues to decrease. As the Ruble implodes and they want access to our mother-fracking rigs in North Dakota, they might try anything.

Smoove_B wrote:

Scraper wrote: Now Russia has no need to put missiles in Cuba.

They might if the price of gas continues to decrease. As the Ruble implodes and they want access to our mother-fracking rigs in North Dakota, they might try anything.

Scraper wrote:

Rip wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Scraper wrote:And as per usual the Republicans are in an uproar about this move. Foxnews.com currently has a picture of old Castro with the headline "They WIn?" Predictable and yet sad since the Fox audience will step right in line with the message they want sent. I.E. nothing Obama does is good.

I wonder what a US win would be if not normalized relations that lead to massive commercial opportunities for US businesses. Eternal sanctions? Nuking them?


Why is Il Papa so involved, BTW? Is some Da Cinci Code shit going down up in there?

Cuba having a representative government, maybe?

That's a BS reason for sanctions. In the 50s we didn't want a communist Cuba because we didn't want Russian missiles in Cuba. Now Russia has no need to put missiles in Cuba. So what difference does it make if Cuba is Socialist, Communist, or Capitalist so long as they aren't a military threat to the US? (Which they aren't). It has nothing to do with a representative government for the Cuban people.

They could be fascist anarchists, it still doesn't change the fact that I don't own a car.

RunningMn9 wrote: What US interest is achieved by continuing to punish them?

Scraper wrote:

Rip wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Scraper wrote:And as per usual the Republicans are in an uproar about this move. Foxnews.com currently has a picture of old Castro with the headline "They WIn?" Predictable and yet sad since the Fox audience will step right in line with the message they want sent. I.E. nothing Obama does is good.

I wonder what a US win would be if not normalized relations that lead to massive commercial opportunities for US businesses. Eternal sanctions? Nuking them?


Why is Il Papa so involved, BTW? Is some Da Cinci Code shit going down up in there?

Cuba having a representative government, maybe?

That's a BS reason for sanctions. In the 50s we didn't want a communist Cuba because we didn't want Russian missiles in Cuba. Now Russia has no need to put missiles in Cuba. So what difference does it make if Cuba is Socialist, Communist, or Capitalist so long as they aren't a military threat to the US? (Which they aren't). It has nothing to do with a representative government for the Cuban people.

Rip wrote: Shipping arms to NK? Executing and imprisoning people who dare seek freedom? Have we forgotten the plane full of civilians they shot down?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

I thought we had given up the policy of befriending tyrannical dictatorships where human rights are abused regularly?

Sounds to me like it is just Obama pushing another reset button, because it has worked out so well for him(us) previously.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Rip wrote: Shipping arms to NK? Executing and imprisoning people who dare seek freedom? Have we forgotten the plane full of civilians they shot down?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

I thought we had given up the policy of befriending tyrannical dictatorships where human rights are abused regularly?

Sounds to me like it is just Obama pushing another reset button, because it has worked out so well for him(us) previously.

What makes Cuba different from Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, or countless other nations that we do business with despite their poor human rights records and/or lack of a "representative government?"

Or is Cuba a special case because it's the one Obama happens to be opening relations with?

GreenGoo wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Rip wrote: Shipping arms to NK? Executing and imprisoning people who dare seek freedom? Have we forgotten the plane full of civilians they shot down?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

I thought we had given up the policy of befriending tyrannical dictatorships where human rights are abused regularly?

Sounds to me like it is just Obama pushing another reset button, because it has worked out so well for him(us) previously.

What makes Cuba different from Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, or countless other nations that we do business with despite their poor human rights records and/or lack of a "representative government?"

Or is Cuba a special case because it's the one Obama happens to be opening relations with?

Russia just shot down a jetliner full of civilians, as a nice parallel.

LawBeefaroni wrote:Yeah, I didn't even want to get into that but 455 was in 1970 and MH17 was this freaking year. We have sanctioned Russia a bit but we still have relations with them and we're still happy to sell to them.

We have a cold-war era policy in place with Cuba despite the end of the cold war. It's a curiosity more than a proper policy.

Rip wrote: In the end I don't have a problem with the move EXCEPT he got absolutely nothing for it. Too bad he wasn't such a terrible negotiator when it comes to domestic politics.

Rip wrote: In the end I don't have a problem with the move EXCEPT he got absolutely nothing for it.

Rip wrote: In the end I don't have a problem with the move EXCEPT he got absolutely nothing for it. Too bad he wasn't such a terrible negotiator when it comes to domestic politics.

RunningMn9 wrote:If Cuba doesn't have much to offer, how are they a huge market?

LawBeefaroni wrote:It's a huge market that will open up to the US and it's in our back yard. That's a pretty good get. Cuba doesn't have a whole lot more to offer [than their huge consumer market].

RunningMn9 wrote:What's the end game?

RunningMn9 wrote:What is the desired end game for Republicans with respect to Cuba? The problem with policies that have been in place for five decades is that the people in charge of enforcing the policy for most of those decades have nothing to do with the original reasons (and in some cases don't have any idea what they were in the first place). Why are we doing it? What US interest is achieved by continuing to punish them?

Smoove_B wrote:

RunningMn9 wrote:What's the end game?

Can't you see it? Obama did this the day after Jeb Bush announced he might consider a 2016 Presidential bid. But now Florida's Cuban exiles are in the pocket of the Democrats. With open borders, they'll start bringing family members over and signing up for Obamacare and voter ID cards. President Obama is trying to create an Oligarhy!

Rip wrote:Yea, right. You should go walk around Little Havana with a sign that says that.

Ric Herrero, executive director of #CubaNow, a group that supports normalizing relations with Cuba, said in a written statement. "The changes ... will make it easier to support the Cuban people as they take ownership of their destiny and craft a more democratic and independent future for themselves.

He singled out Democratic Sen. Bob Menendez of New Jersey and Republican Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida for their opposition to opening relations with Cuba on the basis of not engaging with repressive regimes, pointing out that Rubio's staff and Menendez have traveled and met with officials in China, which also has been criticized for human rights abuses.

RunningMn9 wrote:LawBeef...my question was on defining them as a "huge" market. What are we basing that on, that the Cuban market is "huge"?

Imports: $13.6 billion (2013 est.)

Imports - commodities: petroleum, food, machinery and equipment, chemicals

Imports - partners: Venezuela 38.3%, China 10.8%, Spain 8.9%, Brazil 5.2%, US 4.3% (2012)

em2nought wrote:I really need to improve my Spanish speaking skills. So how much are hookers in Cuba?