Netanyahu address to Congress

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

User avatar
AWS260
Posts: 12682
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:51 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by AWS260 »

Defiant wrote:
AWS260 wrote:I don't understand why Congress is upset about the timing of the UN vote. It has no bearing on their ability to affect the deal. They still get to review it and vote on it, and if they successfully scuttle it, the deal is dead, regardless of what happens in the UN.
I'm not sure that's correct. IANAL, but suppose that the UN issues a new resolution that lifts the sanctions contingent on Iran following the terms laid out in the agreement. Then regardless of congress's actions, if Iran followed those terms (for the first six months or whatever it requires) those sanctions would be dropped. If Congress wanted to scuttle it, the most they could do is prevent US sanctions from going away, rather than prevent sanctions from being lifted in the UN.
Right, but how would a Congressional vote first change that outcome? In either scenario, Congress only has control over the U.S. portion of the sanctions.

Or would they pass a law that requires the Administration to veto the deal in the UN Security Council? Can Congress even do that? That seems kind of nuts.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

AWS260 wrote: Right, but how would a Congressional vote first change that outcome? In either scenario, Congress only has control over the U.S. portion of the sanctions.

Or would they pass a law that requires the Administration to veto the deal in the UN Security Council? Can Congress even do that? That seems kind of nuts.
It would probably make it a lot harder for the administration to support the deal in the UN if there were a bipartisan consensus that the deal was a bad deal. Or it might cause those in the security council to think that a deal in which one of the two primary parties aren't going to participate in will cause the deal to fail. (I wonder whether Obama himself feels that a deal in which the US wouldn't be participating with would be as effective?)
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13744
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Max Peck »

This seems like as good a place as any for this news...

Israel spy Jonathan Pollard 'to be freed' by US
An American jailed for 30 years for spying for Israel is to be freed in November after the US granted his parole, according to his lawyers. Jonathan Pollard, a former US Navy intelligence analyst, was jailed for life in 1987 after being found guilty of passing documents to Israel. US Secretary of State John Kerry denied the move was a bid to appease Israel amid tensions over Iran's nuclear deal.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42326
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by GreenGoo »

See, Snowden? Only 30 years. We're reasonable people. Come on home and let's talk about it.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16506
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Zarathud »

Snowden didn't spy for an ally, so there's no chance he's serving only 30 years. He has no role to play as a bargaining chip in international negotiations.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82267
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Isgrimnur »

We've got a Spy News thread, but Pollard hadn't made an appearance there yet.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26891
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Rip »

User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12350
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Moliere »

Five years ago Hitchens discusses Iran and Obama.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42326
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by GreenGoo »

Zarathud wrote:Snowden didn't spy for an ally, so there's no chance he's serving only 30 years. He has no role to play as a bargaining chip in international negotiations.
Huh? He spied for the American people. That's about as "ally" as you can get. And he has released nothing to foreign governments.

If you're suggesting he's gonna get more than 30 years...

That's insane.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41307
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by El Guapo »

GreenGoo wrote:
Zarathud wrote:Snowden didn't spy for an ally, so there's no chance he's serving only 30 years. He has no role to play as a bargaining chip in international negotiations.
Huh? He spied for the American people. That's about as "ally" as you can get. And he has released nothing to foreign governments.

If you're suggesting he's gonna get more than 30 years...

That's insane.
Pollard got out to help relations with an ally. Zarathud's point is that there's no allied country out there that will advocate for Snowden like Israel advocated for Pollard.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42326
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by GreenGoo »

El Guapo wrote: Pollard got out to help relations with an ally. Zarathud's point is that there's no allied country out there that will advocate for Snowden like Israel advocated for Pollard.
Which is more insane: That the US gov would soften its stance because the foreign government receiving classified material is ostensibly an ally and they are advocating for the "traitor", or that the US gov would be harder on a "traitor" who released classified material to the US public.

If the government is harder on a whistleblower than it is on a spy, they have a serious priority issue. One that the citizens of the US should work to fix.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41307
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by El Guapo »

Black Lives Matter.
ydejin
Posts: 1992
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by ydejin »

Also three dozen retired generals and admirals released an open letter Tuesday supporting the Iran nuclear deal and urging Congress to do the same.
Calling the agreement “the most effective means currently available to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons,” the letter said that gaining international support for military action against Iran, should that ever become necessary, “would only be possible if we have first given the diplomatic path a chance.”
The letter from the retired military officers followed the release this past weekend of a letter to Obama by 29 of the nation’s leading scientists, who called the Iran deal “technically sound, stringent and innovative” and said it would “provide the necessary assurance in the coming decade and more that Iran is not developing nuclear weapons.”...

“There is no better option to prevent an Iranian nuclear weapon,” the letter said. “Military action would be less effective than the deal, assuming it is fully implemented. If the Iranians cheat, our advanced technology, intelligence and the inspections will reveal it, and U.S. military options remain on the table.”

“And if the deal is rejected by America,” it said, “the Iranians could have a nuclear weapon within a year. The choice is that stark.”
Retired Navy Rear Adm. Harold L. Robinson, a rabbi and former naval chaplain who chairs the National Conference on Ministry to the Armed Forces, also signed.

“As a lifelong Zionist, devoted to Israel, and a retired general officer and a rabbi for over 40 years, and operating without institutional encumbrances, I have a unique perspective,” Robinson said in an interview.
(Source: Washington Post)
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41307
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by El Guapo »

Yeah I had a lot of significant reservations and concerns about the deal, but the more I read about it the more I am inclined to support it. Most importantly, the groups that seem most knowledgeable about the core of the deal (nuclear arms control experts / groups) seem broadly supportive of the deal. By contrast, a lot of the opposition to the deal in the U.S. seems to be focused on stuff that the deal doesn't and couldn't really address (a lot of them seem to be upset that it does not single-handedly crush the ayatollah's regime).

For what it's worth.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26891
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Rip »

Wow, the North Korea deal was bad but this one takes the (yellow)cake.
A draft document seen by the AP suggests that instead of carrying out their own probe, IAEA staff will be reduced to monitoring Iranian personnel as they inspect the Parchin site.

That deal is a side agreement worked out between the IAEA and Iran, separate from the nuclear deal now before Congress for approval. Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said the revelation only "reinforces" concerns about the broader agreement.

"Trusting Iran to inspect its own nuclear site and report to the U.N. in an open and transparent way is remarkably naïve and incredibly reckless," he said in a statement. "It is time for the Obama Administration to come clean with the American people and provide all information about these secret side agreements between Iran and the IAEA."

House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Ed Royce, R-Calif., who previously voiced concerns to the State Department over the so-called side deals between Iran and the IAEA, said the inspections need to be done by international inspectors, "Period."

"Congress must now consider whether this unprecedented arrangement will keep Iran from cheating. This is a dangerous farce," he said in a statement.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08 ... cmp=hplnws

Image
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42326
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by GreenGoo »

Rip wrote:Wow, the North Korea deal was bad but this one takes the (yellow)cake.
A draft document seen by the AP suggests that instead of carrying out their own probe, IAEA staff will be reduced to monitoring Iranian personnel as they inspect the Parchin site.

That deal is a side agreement worked out between the IAEA and Iran, separate from the nuclear deal now before Congress for approval. Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said the revelation only "reinforces" concerns about the broader agreement.

"Trusting Iran to inspect its own nuclear site and report to the U.N. in an open and transparent way is remarkably naïve and incredibly reckless," he said in a statement. "It is time for the Obama Administration to come clean with the American people and provide all information about these secret side agreements between Iran and the IAEA."

House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Ed Royce, R-Calif., who previously voiced concerns to the State Department over the so-called side deals between Iran and the IAEA, said the inspections need to be done by international inspectors, "Period."

"Congress must now consider whether this unprecedented arrangement will keep Iran from cheating. This is a dangerous farce," he said in a statement.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08 ... cmp=hplnws

Image
shrug.
El Guapo wrote:Yeah I had a lot of significant reservations and concerns about the deal, but the more I read about it the more I am inclined to support it. Most importantly, the groups that seem most knowledgeable about the core of the deal (nuclear arms control experts / groups) seem broadly supportive of the deal
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

I think the deal is a bad one and an embarrassment given the amount of leverage we had and never should have been reached last month. I've got a number of concerns with the deal itself, for example:

1. The delay in inspecting undeclared sites

2. Whether or not Iran will respond to all of the questions regarding its past work, which it largely hasn't answered previously even though it was supposed to (It appears this may be part of one of those secret deals that has been mentioned, but it's still unclear exactly what will be revealed. Cause it's secret).

3. The loophole in the snap-back sanctions which will waters them down.

4. From what I understand, if problems arise with the agreement, the only remedy described by the agreement is to dissolve the agreement (snap back sanctions get reimposed, neither side needs to abide by any commitments, etc). There's no mechanism in place for addressing smaller breaches. Either they get ignored or the agreement falls apart. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Additionally, the agreement will give Iran more opportunity to fund it's proxies which will likely see more wars and/or destabilization in the region.

And it largely just postpones the problem for a decade, at which point we'll have less leverage and time to deal with the problem through diplomacy.

That said, I'm more on the fence as to whether rejecting it now would be the right course of action. I think there's a reasonable chance we could still be able to get a better deal, but regardless, we will have a mess with our allies and diplomacy in general.

But, then, between the UN security council vote that took place, and the likely odds of the vote in congress, I think it's largely a fait accompli.

I've been largely been disappointed by both supporters and critics in this debate, but I've been especially disappointed in the administration. Apart from the deal itself, there are also claims they made during negotiations that turned out to be false. They said it would include "anywhere, anytime" inspections. They stated that the deal would only focus on the nuclear program, so anything to do with terrorism or anything else was off the table - but there are individuals with links to terrorism that will be removed from sanction lists. Additionally, the administration, IMO, may have been acting in bad faith when it agreed to the compromise bill if it had been planning to go to the UN security council first before congress. And the administration labeling those who disagree warmongers and having common cause with Iranian hardliners* is the kind of play I might have expected from the worst of the Republicans.

* Of course with some voices on the left suggesting the old dual loyalty canard, wouldn't having common cause with Iran's hardliners mean triple loyalty? *rimshot*
User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26891
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Rip »

As Congress inches closer to a vote to approve or disapprove of the deal, 56% of Americans now say they think Congress should reject the deal with Iran -- up from 52% less than a month ago
Republican opposition has jumped to 83% from 66% last month while 70% of Democrats now say Congress should approve the deal, up from 61% in July.

The number of independents opposing the deal, meanwhile, remains steady as a majority -- now 58% -- continues to believe Congress should reject the deal.

Republican politicians have been nearly unanimous in their opposition to the deal with most of the party's presidential field expressing outrage and opposition to the deal almost as soon as it was announced.

And with Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton expressing her support for the deal, it is likely to become a defining issue in the 2016 election.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/20/politics/ ... index.html
User avatar
Fireball
Posts: 4762
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:43 pm

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Fireball »

Having read the agreement, and participated in more than a dozen of hours of briefings with security experts, nuclear non-proliferation experts, as well as advocacy groups both in favor and opposed to the deal, I am confident that the deal is a good one. Most of the "gotchas" raised by people on the right aren't what they seem at first sight. The Parchin inspection issue has nothing to do with forward-looking nuclear weaponization concerns but past military dimensions of research — which was always considered a secondary concern when compared to future activity. The "snap-back loophole" doesn't actually mean that new business arrangements made during a window when sanctions are lifted get to continue unabated in the event of snap-back, it merely ensures that businesses that make those agreements don't face retroactive sanctions for that activity in the event of snap-back. A lot is made about a "24 delay for undeclared sites," but that degree of delay is only possible if the US and its allies takes the longest possible time, which is unlikely. The agreement establishes continued operation of the Joint Commission that hashed out the deal, which will provide a venue for addressing marginal violations on the part of Iran without the need of a full snapback.

There is no path to a "better deal". The international sanctions regime only came together in order to produce an agreement. If we walk away, they are not going to be inclined to continue to work with us, because we will have cajoled them into harming their own economies in order to bring Iran to the table, only to walk away from an agreement that has been embraced by those same partners. It is a fantasy to believe that we would use "secondary sanctions" against our major trading partners (and creditors) to force them to continue or even strengthen sanctions that they think have run their course and produced the desired result.

There is little to no chance that the deal is scuttled by Congress.

In the Senate, 30 Senators have come out against it and 26 in favor of it (as of this moment). The remaining 26 Republican Senators are all expected to oppose. Of the remaining 18 Democratic Senators whose intentions have not been public announced, only 2 are considered to be likely to oppose the deal, and 5 are considered to be likely to support it. Unless the opponents can hold both of those likely opposed Senators and cajole 9 of the 11 purely undecided Democrats, they don't have the votes to overturn a veto. It's not yet clear that they even have the votes to achieve cloture on the disapproval vote.

In the House, all 246 Republican members are expected to oppose the deal (though about a dozen would like to support it if they could find sufficient political cover to do so). Only 12 Democrats have come out against the deal, while 58 have come out in favor. Of the remaining 118 House Democrats whose position is unclear, 91 signed a letter in March outlining what they want from a deal, which the JCPOA broadly meets. Only one Democrat who signed that letter is opposing the deal, while 4 who did not sign that letter have come out in favor. In other words, opponents aren't pealing off near the number of votes from House Democrats that they'd need to override a veto of Congressional disapproval.

While the rhetoric from the Administration has gotten a bit too intense, the opponents of the deal have also been blistering, and inconsistent. Many of the same people saying that if we just push harder we could negotiate a "better deal" were saying three years ago that no deal should ever be negotiated. Twelve years ago, many of them were running around saying that if we would only topple Saddam Hussein, we'd make democracy blossom in the Middle East.

Diplomacy doesn't produce perfect deals. But this process has produced a good one. It's the strongest inspections regime ever imposed on a sovereign nation through peaceful methods. It implements extended IAEA protocols that were put in place to close flaws in previous inspections regimes. It puts control over the snapback sanctions in the hands of the United States by blocking a Russia or China Security Council veto. It pushes Iran's breakout to sufficient nuclear material for a bomb from three months today to a year in 15 years, and includes many inspection requirements that never expire under the Additional Protocols of the NNPT.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42326
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by GreenGoo »

Thanks for taking the time to write out your experiences, information and opinions.

Much appreciated.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

Fireball wrote:The "snap-back loophole" doesn't actually mean that new business arrangements made during a window when sanctions are lifted get to continue unabated in the event of snap-back, it merely ensures that businesses that make those agreements don't face retroactive sanctions for that activity in the event of snap-back.
OK, I can see that interpretation, and if that's the case, then that's not so much of a concern. (I wish the deal were written in clearer language).
A lot is made about a "24 delay for undeclared sites," but that degree of delay is only possible if the US and its allies takes the longest possible time, which is unlikely.
I knew that the 24 days was the maximum (as opposed to the minimum) but your article implies that they could call a vote right away:
Critics claim that because the process could, in theory, take up to 24 days, it means Iran can force inspectors to wait 24 days. This is false. Iran does not control every step of the process — the US and its allies could force a vote on the international commission right away, for example — so it is nonsense to argue that Iran could unilaterally delay inspection up to 24 full days.
My understanding Iran could delay the process for at least the initial 14 days, because all parties (which includes Iran) have to be in agreement, and only then could a vote be called to resolve the dispute and then Iran has three days to comply. Which means 17-18 days minimum, which isn't a whole lot better than 24 days. (And certainly isn't the anytime, anywhere access the administration said there would be months ago)
There is no path to a "better deal".
The lead French diplomat in the negotiation disagreed:
It is a fantasy to believe that we would use "secondary sanctions" against our major trading partners (and creditors) to force them to continue or even strengthen sanctions that they think have run their course and produced the desired result.
My understanding is that this is a large part of why China came aboard in terms of implementing sanctions, earlier.
There is little to no chance that the deal is scuttled by Congress.
Agreed.
While the rhetoric from the Administration has gotten a bit too intense, the opponents of the deal have also been blistering, and inconsistent. Many of the same people saying that if we just push harder we could negotiate a "better deal" were saying three years ago that no deal should ever be negotiated. Twelve years ago, many of them were running around saying that if we would only topple Saddam Hussein, we'd make democracy blossom in the Middle East.
Except that some of the supporters of this deal supported the Iraq war, while some of those against this deal did not support the Iraq War - trying to make this a redo of the Iraq war just weakens the quality of the debate. As does the assertion that the only options we have are this deal or war.
It's the strongest inspections regime ever imposed on a sovereign nation through peaceful methods.
I'm not sure that I quite buy that characterization when we know of sovereign nations that voluntarily went through the process of entirely eliminating their weapons program, although I suppose their inspections since those programs got dismantled have not been as strong. Now if only Iran could be as forthcoming in it's cooperation and transparency as that.

It pushes Iran's breakout to sufficient nuclear material for a bomb from three months today to a year in 15 years, and includes many inspection requirements that never expire under the Additional Protocols of the NNPT.
“What is a more relevant fear would be that in Year 13, 14, 15, they have advanced centrifuges that enrich uranium fairly rapidly, and at that point, the breakout times would have shrunk almost down to zero,” Obama said.
link

:eusa-think:
User avatar
Fireball
Posts: 4762
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:43 pm

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Fireball »

Defiant wrote:I knew that the 24 days was the maximum (as opposed to the minimum) but your article implies that they could call a vote right away:
Critics claim that because the process could, in theory, take up to 24 days, it means Iran can force inspectors to wait 24 days. This is false. Iran does not control every step of the process — the US and its allies could force a vote on the international commission right away, for example — so it is nonsense to argue that Iran could unilaterally delay inspection up to 24 full days.
My understanding Iran could delay the process for at least the initial 14 days, because all parties (which includes Iran) have to be in agreement, and only then could a vote be called to resolve the dispute and then Iran has three days to comply. Which means 17-18 days minimum, which isn't a whole lot better than 24 days. (And certainly isn't the anytime, anywhere access the administration said there would be months ago)
We have anytime, anywhere on known enrichment and research sites, and as few as 3 days to as many as 24 days to other sites. When dealing with nuclear material, that amount of time difference is completely immaterial. For nuclear-related work, the IAEA will be tracking all equipment that is brought into the country that could find use in nuclear weaponization. If Iran is trying to do mechanical work outside of the eyes of the inspectors, their charade will collapse under the rapidity of spot inspections. If Iran is continually blocking access for as long as possible, they risk blowing up the deal. Iran has a lot riding on not blowing up this deal. They're not crazy, and it's silly to presume that they will constantly behave in an irrational manner that will lead to ever increasing demands for spot inspections beyond the known sites.
There is no path to a "better deal".
The lead French diplomat in the negotiation disagreed:
No, he did not. A handful of members of Congress, all of whom have been long expected to oppose the deal, claim that he said that. He and the French government have publicly denied that. Here's one thing we do know he has said: "During the meeting with the members of the US Congress on the 17th of July, I never said or suggested that a no vote from the Congress on the JCPOA might be helpful or lead to a better deal. I insisted repeatedly on the fact that the deal itself was the best possible."
It is a fantasy to believe that we would use "secondary sanctions" against our major trading partners (and creditors) to force them to continue or even strengthen sanctions that they think have run their course and produced the desired result.
My understanding is that this is a large part of why China came aboard in terms of implementing sanctions, earlier.
Everyone was wiling to come on board with the current sanctions regime because they were pointed at what was believed to be an achievable end: a strong deal to block Iran's path to the bomb. That end has been achieved. The chances that a deal stronger than this would win approval from the Iranian Parliament is slim to none. The negotiators know that. Our allies aren't going to swallow more economic loss to themselves if America blows up this deal. They're already rushing to reestablish the ties that they severed to help us bring Iran to the table, and their governments have already signed off on the deal or are about to do so.

The sort of secondary sanctions we'd have to impose to force them to keep the current sanctions in place, much less go further, would be disastrous for our allies' economies, could end up dragging the United States before the WTO, and would put our nation's credit rating at risk. Banking sanctions the likes of which Netanyahu talks about America imposing would also hit our own economy hard (not that he cares about America's economy) going into an election year. You're talking about Americans no longer being able to take out loans from car dealerships that sell foreign cars with direct banking connections to other nations. You're talking about America not being able to service its debt obligations to Japan or China or Germany, which could endanger the market for US Treasury Bonds and play directly into China's hands in terms of attempting to partially displace the US dollar and US treasury notes as the reserve stores of value internationally.

Those sorts of sanctions against our allies would not pass Congress. It is fiction to think that we'd go that far for this. You really think members of Congress will vote to harm the value of the dollar, lower our credit rating, and perhaps send us into a recession in order to force our allies to try to force Iran to give us a slightly better deal?
As does the assertion that the only options we have are this deal or war.
Unless you really think we're wiling to risk devastating our own economy and those of our allies in order to force Iran to give us a slightly better deal, I firmly believe that we have exhausted the diplomatic and economic paths to putting pressure on Tehran.
I'm not sure that I quite buy that characterization when we know of sovereign nations that voluntarily went through the process of entirely eliminating their weapons program, although I suppose their inspections since those programs got dismantled have not been as strong. Now if only Iran could be as forthcoming in it's cooperation and transparency as that.
Those were generally trustworthy, transparent nations. Iran is not. And the goal of this deal was not to make Iran trustworthy, nor is the deal based on an expectation that Iran will be transparent.
It pushes Iran's breakout to sufficient nuclear material for a bomb from three months today to a year in 15 years, and includes many inspection requirements that never expire under the Additional Protocols of the NNPT.
“What is a more relevant fear would be that in Year 13, 14, 15, they have advanced centrifuges that enrich uranium fairly rapidly, and at that point, the breakout times would have shrunk almost down to zero,” Obama said.
link

:eusa-think:
[/quote]

The President's statement here does not align with what the non-proliferation and nuclear arms experts I've had briefings with have told me, or my reading of the text. I think he is presenting a worst case scenario wherein Iran has replaced all of its (pretty terrible) current centrifuges with ones as advanced as what we've been using recently. They're able to bring new centrifuges online late in the deal, so long as the total enrichment capacity of all active centrifuges does not increase.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

Fireball wrote: We have anytime, anywhere on known enrichment and research sites, and as few as 3 days to as many as 24 days to other sites.
First of all, it isn't "anytime, anywhere" access when it's only applied to known sites. that's "anytime, some places" access.

Next up, Section 78 absolutely allows Iran to unilaterally delay the process by 17 days.
Iran has a lot riding on not blowing up this deal.
So do some of the other countries.

Everyone was wiling to come on board with the current sanctions regime because they were pointed at what was believed to be an achievable end: a strong deal to block Iran's path to the bomb.
Everyone? :)

My understanding is that a big part of why China went along with it was because they didn't want their companies to get penalized for doing business in Iran. If they were motivated through reaching an achievable goal of blocking Iran, they wouldn't have tried to take advantage of loopholes in the sanctions

I don't buy your doom and gloom scenario but...
You really think members of Congress will vote to harm the value of the dollar, lower our credit rating
I don't buy your doom and gloom scenario but...
Cough, cough
As does the assertion that the only options we have are this deal or war.

Those were generally trustworthy, transparent nations. Iran is not.
With the notable exception being Libya.
And the goal of this deal was not to make Iran trustworthy, nor is the deal based on an expectation that Iran will be transparent.
It should. If Iran doesn't act trustworthy, then it will either mean that the deal will collapse if it's caught or will make progress to nuclear weapons if they aren't. And I'm told that without the deal, war is inevitable.

As for transparency, that sure as hell needs to be an expectation of this deal.
Last edited by Defiant on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26891
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Rip »

For those that doubted it when I said Israel would be looking to attack.
Israeli leaders planned to attack military targets in Iran in recent years, but they were held back due to the opinions of other government and military leaders, according to an audio recording leaked to an Israeli television broadcaster.

One planned strike was canned after scheduling conflicts with a joint military exercise with the United States got in the way, according to the audio.

The recording with former Defense Minister Ehud Barak was leaked to Israel's Channel 2. It detailed three strikes Barak had allegedly planned with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in 2010, 2011 and 2012 respectively.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/22/middleeas ... index.html

:whistle:
User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 23653
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Pyperkub »

Great Britain re-opens Embassy in Iran:
Today's ceremony marks the end of one phase in the relationship between our two countries and the start of a new one - one that I believe offers the promise of better," he said.

After what was a low point in diplomacy between the two countries, he said, the relationship had improved "step by step" since the election of Iranian President Hassan Rouhani in 2013.

Hammond said the nuclear deal that the Islamic Republic struck with six major world powers last month was also an important milestone.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

ydejin wrote: Also three dozen retired generals and admirals released an open letter Tuesday supporting the Iran nuclear deal and urging Congress to do the same.
A group of nearly 200 retired generals and admirals sent a letter to Congress on Wednesday urging lawmakers to reject the Iran nuclear agreement, which they say threatens national security.
“The agreement will enable Iran to become far more dangerous, render the Mideast still more unstable and introduce new threats to American interests as well as our allies,” the letter states.

The signatories include retired generals and flag officers from every branch of service, including a handful who were involved in some public controversies during their careers.
“I don’t think this letter will sway anything,” he said. “It’s just the opinion of people who have served their country. It’s an alternative view to what I consider a very weak letter put out by the administration implying generals and admirals support this agreement. But I don’t think it will have any impact.”
(Source: Washington Post)
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82267
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Isgrimnur »

WaPo
President Obama on Wednesday was handed a major foreign policy victory after securing enough votes in the Senate to preserve the nuclear deal with Iran, which has come under intense criticism from Republicans and some Democrats.
...
Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.) on Wednesday morning said she will back the agreement, making her the 34th senator to pledge support for the Iran deal in the Senate. This means that opponents will not be able to collect the two-thirds supermajority vote needed to override Obama’s promised veto of any legislative attempt to dismantle the nuclear pact.
...
Her vote now potentially clears the way for other undecided senators to support the deal. There are 10 Democrats who remain undeclared – if seven more of those senators vote for the deal, Obama might not need to pick up his veto pen at all. If 41 senators support the agreement, deal backers could successfully filibuster the resolution of disapproval and the pact will stand.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43775
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Kraken »

Whatever you think of this treaty, you have to admit that Obama's having an unusually successful second term. Presidencies are supposed to collapse into ineffective bickering by now.

If he can get a significant agreement on climate change -- or even move the issue irreversibly to the front burner -- he will have quite a legacy. History is going to be more charitable to the Obama presidency than are his contemporaries.

I was not a big fan of Obama's first term. He didn't finally become effective until he stopped trying to cooperate with Republicans. It's a pity it took him so long to learn that. Also, it turns out we don't actually need a congress. ;)
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

A Debate between Peter Beinart and Alan Dershowitz on the Iran Deal

Not a perfect debate - Beinart derails the debate for a while by going off on a tangent, Derschowitz is downright rude to the moderator for not keeping him on topic - but still better than much of the debate between the most vocal voices on both sides.
User avatar
Fireball
Posts: 4762
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:43 pm

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Fireball »

Deal supporters now have 41 committed votes in the Senate, with perhaps two more coming, and a filibuster of the disapproval resolution appears to be in reach. Prime Minister's Netanyahu's full-on embrace of the American right-wing during the 2012 election, his appointment of a Republican operative as Israel's ambassador to the United States, and his speech before Congress had exactly the effect you'd expect them to have had. The fact that deal opponents relied on discredited talking points, and then just repeated them (Dick Cheney style) whenever they were shot down, made this all that much more inevitable.

Josh Marshall Dissects the Wreckage
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 51457
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by hepcat »

Kraken wrote:Whatever you think of this treaty, you have to admit that Obama's having an unusually successful second term. Presidencies are supposed to collapse into ineffective bickering by now.
Agreed. He's been kicking ass and taking names for the last year or so. He's like the Pope Francis version of a politician.
He won. Period.
User avatar
Canuck
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:09 am

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Canuck »

Fireball wrote:Deal supporters now have 41 committed votes in the Senate, with perhaps two more coming, and a filibuster of the disapproval resolution appears to be in reach.
Republicans refuse to give up derailing plan
Muhahaha! If there's one thing you've got to admire about the Republicans it's got to be their determination to fight to the bitter end. If the shoe were on the other foot, this would be the typical Dem reaction:
Image
User avatar
Fireball
Posts: 4762
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:43 pm

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Fireball »

Cloture vote fails 58-42 in the Senate. The deal moves forward.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

A Nuclear Inspector's view: Give the Iran Deal a Shot
The best thing that can be said about the Iran nuclear deal is there is a chance it may succeed — at least for a while. I would put the odds at much less than 50-50, maybe 1 in 3, but they may be enough to hold your nose and vote for the deal, accompanied with an explanation of why it stinks
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55355
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by LawBeefaroni »

NPR wrote:This is the story of the United States, the atom and Iran.
...
"It started in 1957," he says, "and ironically, it is a creation of the United States. The U.S. provided Iran with its first research reactor — a nuclear reactor, a 5-megawatt nuclear reactor that is still functioning and still operational in Tehran."

The U.S. built that nuclear reactor on the campus of Tehran University. It also provided Iran with fuel for that reactor — weapons-grade enriched uranium.

It seemed like a good idea at the time.

It was part of President Eisenhower's Atoms for Peace program, an initiative to provide countries with peaceful, civilian nuclear technologies in the hope that they wouldn't pursue military nuclear programs.

The beneficiaries included Israel, India, Pakistan — and Iran, then ruled by a U.S.-backed monarch, Shah Reza Pahlavi.
...
The Iranians had money to exploit the knowledge they were given, and to develop scientific minds. Iran provided the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a $20 million endowment in the 1970s to train Iranian nuclear scientists, Vaez says.

"The majority of people who returned to the country and started running the nuclear program were trained at MIT," he notes.

And more from Brookings.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41307
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by El Guapo »

And of course we also played a role in the eventual rise of the Mullah regime, since we played an instrumental role in toppling the nascent democracy in Iran in the 1950s.

So, good job on Iran, Eisenhower.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Exodor
Posts: 17209
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:10 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Exodor »

I was reminded of Netanyahu's visit when reading this article about Republican whining about the Pope's upcoming address to Congress
"I think it's totally inappropriate that the Pope is weighing in on all the real sensitive, far-left issues," said Oklahoma Republican James Inhofe, one of the most conservative senators.

Rep. Paul Gosar, a Catholic Republican from Arizona, plans to boycott the event.

"I don't need to be lectured by the Pope about climate change," Gosar said in an interview off the House floor. "When he wants to take a political position, I will tell you: He is free and clear to be criticized like the rest of us."
I'm far too lazy to look it up but I'm sure one could make a fun, Daily Show type contrast between whining about the Pope's address and comments made about Netanyahu's address. :pop:
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Netanyahu address to Congress

Post by Defiant »

El Guapo wrote:we played an instrumental role in toppling the nascent democracy in Iran in the 1950s.
Instrumental?
Post Reply