Go Bernie!

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Holman »

Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
They were fresh, but they weren't insurgents. None of them went to war with the Democratic Party itself, and none of them attacked their rivals and predecessors as corrupt shills or whatever.

Bernie is playing a stupid and dangerous game.
Bernie can trounce Trump

This fellow's argument involves turnout, which, you will object, Bernie is not driving as he must do to win. That's true -- in the primaries. Not necessarily true in the general, when everyone's paying attention.
Every time we wait for young voters to save us, they let us down.

The truth is that turnout *is* way up in this primary, and very impressively so--just not among Bernie voters. His base has actually shrunk since 2016.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30125
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by YellowKing »

I don't buy the argument at all that Bernie is going to drive turnout any more than Biden will. Turnout is being driven by Democrats in general wanting to get Trump out. Sanders has done a great job reaching Latino and younger voters, but Biden's strong support among African-Americans and older people is just as compelling (maybe more so since they'll actually show up at the polls).
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant »

I think Sanders will drive up turnout... among Republicans, because of all the negative ads attack him as a socialist for which Sanders has provided hours and hours of footage for.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Unagi »

Defiant wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:34 pm I think Sanders will drive up turnout... among Republicans, because of all the negative ads attack him as a socialist for which Sanders has provided hours and hours of footage for.
This

It’s entirely about fear for them, and he’s their best Boogie Man
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Grifman »

Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
But none of them ran on far left positions, they all ran and governed as center-left candidates/presidents. The truth is that they only far left candidate that ever got the Democratic nomination was McGovern, and he was crushed by Nixon.

This is purely anecdotal but I know a number of people who've told me that they'd vote for Biden over Trump, but not for Bernie over Trump.
I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight...but I'm not changing the thread title, either. :tjg:
I meant it as more of a joke than anything else :)
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken »

Grifman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
But none of them ran on far left positions, they all ran and governed as center-left candidates/presidents.
Nevertheless, they were the exciting, risky alternatives. Democrats lose when they play it safe.
Grifman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight...but I'm not changing the thread title, either. :tjg:
I meant it as more of a joke than anything else :)
The idea had already occurred to me. As I said, I'm not in the bag for Bernie, and I saw him as siphoning votes from Warren, who could actually win with the progressive agenda. So yeah, I was considering "Go away Bernie!" when I thought she was the alternative. :)
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Grifman »

Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:32 pm
Grifman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
But none of them ran on far left positions, they all ran and governed as center-left candidates/presidents.
Nevertheless, they were the exciting, risky alternatives. Democrats lose when they play it safe.
Very different times now, totally unprecedented. "Safe" is looking pretty good right now. We've had too much turmoil from the right, we hardly need it from the left for the next for years, IMO.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken »

Grifman wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:18 am
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:32 pm
Grifman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
But none of them ran on far left positions, they all ran and governed as center-left candidates/presidents.
Nevertheless, they were the exciting, risky alternatives. Democrats lose when they play it safe.
Very different times now, totally unprecedented. "Safe" is looking pretty good right now. We've had too much turmoil from the right, we hardly need it from the left for the next for years, IMO.
A tongue-tied debater with declining cognitive skills is not as safe as you think he is.
User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 63524
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Daehawk »

Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:15 am
Grifman wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:18 am
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:32 pm
Grifman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
But none of them ran on far left positions, they all ran and governed as center-left candidates/presidents.
Nevertheless, they were the exciting, risky alternatives. Democrats lose when they play it safe.
Very different times now, totally unprecedented. "Safe" is looking pretty good right now. We've had too much turmoil from the right, we hardly need it from the left for the next for years, IMO.
A tongue-tied debater with declining cognitive skills is not as safe as you think he is.
Ok Ill bite....who are you talking about?
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
User avatar
ImLawBoy
Forum Admin
Posts: 14950
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by ImLawBoy »

Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Bernie can trounce Trump

This fellow's argument involves turnout, which, you will object, Bernie is not driving as he must do to win. That's true -- in the primaries. Not necessarily true in the general, when everyone's paying attention.
Bernie's never been able to drive youth vote turnout yet, but trust me, he'll do it in the next election! It's not like there's a lack of attention on the primaries, and his base is supposed to be super excited about things, but they're still not turning out. It's time to admit that Bernie will not be able to drive youth turnout.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41244
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo »

Daehawk wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:25 am
Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:15 am
Grifman wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:18 am
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:32 pm
Grifman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
But none of them ran on far left positions, they all ran and governed as center-left candidates/presidents.
Nevertheless, they were the exciting, risky alternatives. Democrats lose when they play it safe.
Very different times now, totally unprecedented. "Safe" is looking pretty good right now. We've had too much turmoil from the right, we hardly need it from the left for the next for years, IMO.
A tongue-tied debater with declining cognitive skills is not as safe as you think he is.
Ok Ill bite....who are you talking about?
Biden, obviously.

That said, a Jewish socialist who has attended rallies with anti-American guerrillas chanting "here there everywhere the Yankee must die" might not be as safe as some people think either.
Black Lives Matter.
Jeff V
Posts: 36414
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Nowhere you want to be.

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Jeff V »

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:45 am
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Bernie can trounce Trump

This fellow's argument involves turnout, which, you will object, Bernie is not driving as he must do to win. That's true -- in the primaries. Not necessarily true in the general, when everyone's paying attention.
Bernie's never been able to drive youth vote turnout yet, but trust me, he'll do it in the next election! It's not like there's a lack of attention on the primaries, and his base is supposed to be super excited about things, but they're still not turning out. It's time to admit that Bernie will not be able to drive youth turnout.
He needs to have a young rising star to partner with and assume to role as cattle herder of young voters. Biden got himself one of those when Mayor Pete endorsed him.

Bernie isn't going to win again, and his continued divisive presence more than anything will simply harden the disenfranchisement of his hard core supporters. His continued abrasiveness with the party and moderates further shuts off any chance of some of his more impassioned causes are ignored when the platform is built. Instead of whining about the machine turning on him again, he should realize it's time to start stacking the deck to ensure Trump is defeated. I wouldn't mind seeing him installed as Secretary of Education, as his education platform intrigues me.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
$iljanus
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13676
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 pm
Location: New England...or under your bed

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by $iljanus »

ImLawBoy wrote:
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Bernie can trounce Trump

This fellow's argument involves turnout, which, you will object, Bernie is not driving as he must do to win. That's true -- in the primaries. Not necessarily true in the general, when everyone's paying attention.
Bernie's never been able to drive youth vote turnout yet, but trust me, he'll do it in the next election! It's not like there's a lack of attention on the primaries, and his base is supposed to be super excited about things, but they're still not turning out. It's time to admit that Bernie will not be able to drive youth turnout.
Sigh, done in by the youth when they don't show up in Nov and the voting elderly who will be scared by Mexicans crossing the border.
Black lives matter!

Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:56 am
Daehawk wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:25 am
Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:15 am
Grifman wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:18 am
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:32 pm
Grifman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
But none of them ran on far left positions, they all ran and governed as center-left candidates/presidents.
Nevertheless, they were the exciting, risky alternatives. Democrats lose when they play it safe.
Very different times now, totally unprecedented. "Safe" is looking pretty good right now. We've had too much turmoil from the right, we hardly need it from the left for the next for years, IMO.
A tongue-tied debater with declining cognitive skills is not as safe as you think he is.
Ok Ill bite....who are you talking about?
Biden, obviously.

That said, a Jewish socialist who has attended rallies with anti-American guerrillas chanting "here there everywhere the Yankee must die" might not be as safe as some people think either.
Neither choice is safe, I'll agree to that.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41244
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo »

Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:01 am
El Guapo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:56 am
Daehawk wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:25 am
Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:15 am
Grifman wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:18 am
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:32 pm
Grifman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:57 pm Carter, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all insurgent candidates.
But none of them ran on far left positions, they all ran and governed as center-left candidates/presidents.
Nevertheless, they were the exciting, risky alternatives. Democrats lose when they play it safe.
Very different times now, totally unprecedented. "Safe" is looking pretty good right now. We've had too much turmoil from the right, we hardly need it from the left for the next for years, IMO.
A tongue-tied debater with declining cognitive skills is not as safe as you think he is.
Ok Ill bite....who are you talking about?
Biden, obviously.

That said, a Jewish socialist who has attended rallies with anti-American guerrillas chanting "here there everywhere the Yankee must die" might not be as safe as some people think either.
Neither choice is safe, I'll agree to that.
I wish there was more data on which candidate is safer. All there is to go on really are these head-to-head polls vs. Trump, where both Sanders and Biden do fine, generally, but which aren't super probative.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 5882
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kurth »

Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:01 am Neither choice is safe, I'll agree to that.
I'll agree to that, too. I'm 100% convinced that Biden is the better choice, but I'm in no way certain that he'll beat Trump. Hopeful, but far from certain.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:09 am All there is to go on really are these head-to-head polls vs. Trump, where both Sanders and Biden do fine, generally, but which aren't super probative.
And aren't real helpful given that Election Day isn't for another eight months. Polls this far back are on average about 5-10 points off on top of the margin of error. That could work both ways, of course, but it means you shouldn't take GE polling seriously at all at this point. You should really only start treating them more seriously when the campaigning starts up (and when some of the people flirting with voting for the other side move back to their own parties), in early September.

I look at other information. Like Exit polls suggest Sanders is stronger with Latino voters, which suggests he might do better in the southwest. And Biden is stronger with older voters. And Sanders positions and statements are likely to make him more vulnerable in PA and especially FL.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Holman »

There's also the likelihood that Sanders has short coattails.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41244
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo »

Defiant wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:08 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:09 am All there is to go on really are these head-to-head polls vs. Trump, where both Sanders and Biden do fine, generally, but which aren't super probative.
And aren't real helpful given that Election Day isn't for another eight months. Polls this far back are on average about 5-10 points off on top of the margin of error. That could work both ways, of course, but it means you shouldn't take GE polling seriously at all at this point. You should really only start treating them more seriously when the campaigning starts up (and when some of the people flirting with voting for the other side move back to their own parties), in early September.

I look at other information. Like Exit polls suggest Sanders is stronger with Latino voters, which suggests he might do better in the southwest. And Biden is stronger with older voters. And Sanders positions and statements are likely to make him more vulnerable in PA and especially FL.
Yeah, I think the qualitative stuff points a little more towards Biden, especially as to particular states (PA & FL in particular). But then not only is that qualitative, it's also relying upon assumptions that roughly the same states that were swing states in 2016 will also be in 2020.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant »

Sure. But I also think it shows that Sanders political instincts aren't great, since he's unnecessarily hurting himself in a potential swing state without any gain for it.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41244
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo »

Defiant wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:19 pm Sure. But I also think it shows that Sanders political instincts aren't great, since he's unnecessarily hurting himself in a potential swing state without any gain for it.
Yeah, and that's one thing that bothers me about Sanders. I guess people like his "keeping it real", but I think the downside of that is that he winds up being pretty negligent on important matters of politics. Like, Clyburn said that Sanders never even sought his endorsement, which is completely bonkers.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Grifman »

Holman wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:12 pm There's also the likelihood that Sanders has short coattails.
I think he'd be down to his underwear. This is another thing that worries me about him. I think the Democrats have a decent shot at taking the Senate. If Bernie is this nominee, I don't think that would happen, and I would fear for the House. Even if Biden were to be the nominee and lose, I think the House would be safe, which is really huge if we have another 4 years of Dumpf. Sure, there are still executive orders and the hollowing out of the federal govt, but at least the Republicans couldn't do any legislative damage.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Grifman »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:15 pm Yeah, I think the qualitative stuff points a little more towards Biden, especially as to particular states (PA & FL in particular). But then not only is that qualitative, it's also relying upon assumptions that roughly the same states that were swing states in 2016 will also be in 2020.
I haven't seen anything that points to otherwise because the majorities in many states were so big. You obviously have Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as the top tier states. After that are North Carolina, Arizona and Florida. There might be a few other surprises but the key states are pretty settled.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Smoove_B »

Where have I heard this before...


Asked by a reporter if his campaign has changed strategy overnight, Sen. Bernie Sanders interrupts:

"Is that what the media is [sic] writing? Don't believe the media."
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:26 pmLike, Clyburn said that Sanders never even sought his endorsement, which is completely bonkers.
This is his whole political career in a nutshell. He can't build coalitions because he doesn't listen. He doesn't really care what others think. He is essentially a narcissist. Albeit one with way more control than Trump.
User avatar
Anonymous Bosch
Posts: 10512
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Northern California [originally from the UK]

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Sanders vs. Biden Is About to Get Really, Really Ugly
Vice News wrote:It didn’t take long for some Sanders supporters to start passing around a video of Biden’s many stumbles and calling him mentally unfit for the presidency.

BURLINGTON, Vermont — Sen. Bernie Sanders has called for substance and civility, but some of his high-profile supporters only want to talk about Joe Biden’s supposed senility.

After Super Tuesday, the Democratic nomination has essentially been whittled down to a two-man race between Sanders and former Vice President Joe Biden, and it’s going to get really, really nasty, threatening a return to the conditions that contributed to a Democratic Party meltdown in 2016.

“I like Joe. Joe is a decent guy, and I do not want this campaign to degenerate into a Trump-type effort where we’re attacking each other, where it’s personal attacks,” Sanders said Wednesday. “That is the last thing this country wants.”

But that’s exactly what the country is going to get, if not from Sanders himself, then from aggrieved surrogates already going nuclear. It didn’t take long for some of them to start passing around a video of Biden’s many stumbles at debates and on the campaign trail and calling him mentally unfit for the presidency, an attack that will no doubt be re-upped if the two men meet one-on-one on the next debate stage.
And Biden's angry response...
Spoiler:
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70100
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LordMortis »

This on point with my problems with Sanders. He wants to take the support of a rabid following that spreads disinformation and use it to his advantage without actually disavowing it.
I do not want this campaign to degenerate into a Trump-type effort where we’re attacking each other,
And yet that is precisely what the cult of Bernie is doing.

From where I sit Sanders doesn't want Bloomberg's support but he'll turn a blind eye to malignancy in the camp he's already thrown in with.

PoTUS vote 2020 is going be pulling my teeth. How did this happen again?
User avatar
Dogstar
Posts: 1735
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:20 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Dogstar »

It honestly feels like some sort of ideological crusade by Sanders and some of his supporters. Other have noted this, but it feels like they're locked into a default status of war against everyone who perceived to be to the right of them. It's made it tough to bring people on board, because compromise doesn't seem to be an option. And because Sanders isn't really a Democrat save for the purposes of this campaign, the stance becomes "Bernie cannot fail; only the Party can fail Bernie." (not my phrasing) So there's a willingness to burn it down -- antagonizing Warren supporters and now Biden supporters because, again, only the Party can fail Bernie. Even if he gets the nomination, it seems toxic to me.
User avatar
pr0ner
Posts: 17424
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, VA
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by pr0ner »

I don't know how someone could look at this chart and assume the fix is in against Sanders.

Hodor.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41244
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo »

pr0ner wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:09 pm I don't know how someone could look at this chart and assume the fix is in against Sanders.

Jesus, he voted against TARP?! WTF is wrong with him?

Anyway, I assume this is supposed to be a list of 'establishment' bills, with the inference that if he supported all of these then "they" must be rigging the race in his favor?
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken »

This is a good primer on Bernie Bros, in case anybody else didn't know what they are. I don't Twit and they never leak into my facebook feed, so I only know of them by reputation.
Just how many Bernie Bros are there — and who are they? That remains tough to pin down. Most of the attacks take place on Twitter, which is used by just 22 percent of Americans. Meanwhile, just a 10th of Twitter users are responsible for 80 percent of all tweets, according to the Pew Research Center. So while pro-Sanders spite on the platform can seem widespread, it seems unlikely to reflect the broader attitudes of his supporters.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Holman »

Kraken wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:14 pm This is a good primer on Bernie Bros, in case anybody else didn't know what they are. I don't Twit and they never leak into my facebook feed, so I only know of them by reputation.
Just how many Bernie Bros are there — and who are they? That remains tough to pin down. Most of the attacks take place on Twitter, which is used by just 22 percent of Americans. Meanwhile, just a 10th of Twitter users are responsible for 80 percent of all tweets, according to the Pew Research Center. So while pro-Sanders spite on the platform can seem widespread, it seems unlikely to reflect the broader attitudes of his supporters.
Wicked paywahled by dah Bahstan Globe.

What's the gist of it?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41244
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo »

Anonymous Bosch wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:09 pm Sanders vs. Biden Is About to Get Really, Really Ugly
Vice News wrote:It didn’t take long for some Sanders supporters to start passing around a video of Biden’s many stumbles and calling him mentally unfit for the presidency.

BURLINGTON, Vermont — Sen. Bernie Sanders has called for substance and civility, but some of his high-profile supporters only want to talk about Joe Biden’s supposed senility.

After Super Tuesday, the Democratic nomination has essentially been whittled down to a two-man race between Sanders and former Vice President Joe Biden, and it’s going to get really, really nasty, threatening a return to the conditions that contributed to a Democratic Party meltdown in 2016.

“I like Joe. Joe is a decent guy, and I do not want this campaign to degenerate into a Trump-type effort where we’re attacking each other, where it’s personal attacks,” Sanders said Wednesday. “That is the last thing this country wants.”

But that’s exactly what the country is going to get, if not from Sanders himself, then from aggrieved surrogates already going nuclear. It didn’t take long for some of them to start passing around a video of Biden’s many stumbles at debates and on the campaign trail and calling him mentally unfit for the presidency, an attack that will no doubt be re-upped if the two men meet one-on-one on the next debate stage.
And Biden's angry response...
Spoiler:
I will say, though, that it seems entirely fair and appropriate to raise Biden's mental acuity as an issue, given his age and periodic campaign stumbles.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken »

Holman wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:32 pm
Kraken wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:14 pm This is a good primer on Bernie Bros, in case anybody else didn't know what they are. I don't Twit and they never leak into my facebook feed, so I only know of them by reputation.
Just how many Bernie Bros are there — and who are they? That remains tough to pin down. Most of the attacks take place on Twitter, which is used by just 22 percent of Americans. Meanwhile, just a 10th of Twitter users are responsible for 80 percent of all tweets, according to the Pew Research Center. So while pro-Sanders spite on the platform can seem widespread, it seems unlikely to reflect the broader attitudes of his supporters.
Wicked paywahled by dah Bahstan Globe.

What's the gist of it?
Right-click/open in private window didn't work? Here's the whole thing.
Spoiler:
On the eve of the South Carolina Democratic debate, a reporter named Scott Bixby exposed the private Twitter account of a Bernie Sanders staffer that was littered with sexist and homophobic attacks on politicians, journalists, and celebrities. The Sanders campaign promptly fired the staffer, issued a condemnation of his behavior, and turned its attention to Charleston. All the while, Bixby, a writer from The Daily Beast, watched as hundreds of messages, seemingly from incensed Bernie supporters, flooded his phone.

When reached by e-mail two days later, Bixby declined an interview.

“I’ve gotten some pretty specific threats to my safety and that of my husband (also, my freaking dog) so I’m just trying not to give the horde any more oxygen for the time being,” he wrote.

That horde may be better known as the Bernie Bros. When it was first coined, in a humor piece by the Atlantic’s Robinson Meyer in October 2015, the term “Berniebro” was meant to satirize a particular Sanders-supporting demographic: young white males who passionately defended and supported the presidential candidate online. Five years later, polls show that the Sanders coalition has broadened significantly. In Nevada, he led the Democratic primary field across a variety of voter categories: men and women, white and Latino, union and non-union, college and non-college. But the combustible mentality that “Berniebro” was meant to caricature still burns among a subset of his supporters.
Get Metro Headlines in your inboxThe 10 top local news stories from metro Boston and around New England delivered daily.

For people like Bixby, on the receiving end of their ire, the attacks can feel like a swarm of locusts. Masses of social media users post angry messages, flood inboxes, rattle off personal attacks, make vague threats, and then move on to their next victim. On occasion, the wrath trickles outside the online world, inciting late-night bullhorn protests outside public officials’ homes on the eve of the Nevada caucuses last month and “Lock her up” chants outside the Democratic National Convention in 2016. Some justify their behavior as the battle cry of warriors for the Bernie cause: They’re fighting online and in real life, they say, on behalf of those most hurt by rising income inequality, lack of access to health care, and crushing debt.

Sanders and many of his less combative supporters depict the Bernie Bros as outliers within a larger coalition. In the Democratic debate in Las Vegas on Feb. 19, Sanders referred to “a few people who make ugly remarks" among his online followers. He also suggested that foreign trolls could be responsible for stoking toxicity online, alluding to the Russian disinformation campaign in the lead-up to the 2016 election.

Just how many Bernie Bros are there — and who are they? That remains tough to pin down. Most of the attacks take place on Twitter, which is used by just 22 percent of Americans. Meanwhile, just a 10th of Twitter users are responsible for 80 percent of all tweets, according to the Pew Research Center. So while pro-Sanders spite on the platform can seem widespread, it seems unlikely to reflect the broader attitudes of his supporters.

Regardless of numbers, the Bernie Bros mentality does spill offline and can have a damning impact on a Sanders campaign.

Take Robert Camacho of Concord, Calif. The 48-year-old, who is gay, recalls being called a homophobic slur and spat on by some Sanders supporters at the Democratic National Convention where he served as a delegate for Clinton.

“I had never experienced anything like it in the 30 years that I’ve been into politics. Just so much hate,” said Camacho. “Bernie should have done more to calm down a lot of his supporters, but he didn’t or couldn’t. And it was chaos."

The 2016 Democratic convention instilled a sense of cynicism and anger within certain Sanders’ supporters emboldened by the WikiLeaks e-mails that suggested the 2016 Democratic primary was tilted in Clinton’s favor. Today, his most ardent online advocates appear perpetually on the defensive, condemning any article or comment that criticizes Sanders or promotes a rival candidate.

Some Sanders supporters, like 43-year-old Jessica Vandett, believe that online belligerence can do more harm than good. As a single mother and former nurse, Vandett said affordable health care is her number one issue. She spends her free time as one of the sole Sanders volunteers knocking on doors in the Appalachian region of North Carolina, rather than picking fights online.

“It’s pointless and it damages the campaign,” she said of the trolling and harassment. “It’s horrible that people have a perception that Bernie supporters are like these few rotten apples."

But some of those behind the keyboards believe the stakes justify the intensity of their tactics.

Sean Carey, a 33-year-old Bernie supporter from Iowa, wasn’t very political until he saw people lose homes overnight as an employee of a mortgage company during the 2008 financial crash.

“I don’t embody the Bernie Bro firebrand. It’s not my mode of being, maybe because of how I was raised or my being from Iowa,” Carey said. He is active on Twitter but refrains from pointed and profane attacks. His feed consists of retweeted pro-Sanders arguments and replies that begin with a first-name greeting.

“But I do think it has value," Carey said of online trolling. "To me, making some affluent suburban voter comfortable on Twitter is less important than making the people affected by racism, classism, and entrenched policy feel protected and seen.”

Riann Ponti, meanwhile, readily admits to being aggressive online. The 32-year-old drifted in and out of homelessness throughout his youth in southern California with his drug-addicted father.

Today, he calls Sanders “the only person in my life who’s ever told the truth.” He has been banned on social media countless times and admits he projects a much more belligerent persona online than in daily life. “Social interactions online are battlefields," he said, "especially during political primaries.”

Ponti directs roughly 80 percent of his venom at people on the far right. But occasionally, he’ll turn on Democrats.

“I want to shine the bright light of truth so brightly that it might hurt," he said. "I want the party to have to look. I want people to stop hurting, but sometimes that requires cutting out a cancer. Chemotherapy hurts, but cancer kills. I consider myself social chemotherapy. Yeah, I’m a little toxic, but right now someone has to be.”

The Sanders campaign has maintained that the conduct of its most aggressive proponents does not represent the broader approach of his supporters.

“I’m not going to tell you we don’t have some jerks out there,” Sanders said in a CNN town hall on Feb. 24. “I do want to say to those folks: We do not want your support if you think that what our campaign is about is making ugly attacks on other candidates. We don’t want you.”

But the Bernie Bros could prove to be a thorn in Sanders’ side as the primary season barrels ahead and the stakes heighten. In the Las Vegas debate, Pete Buttigieg, who has since dropped out, tried to draw a connection between Sanders’ message and the angry sentiment of his online supporters: “I think you have to accept some responsibility and ask yourself what it is about your campaign, in particular, that seems to be motivating this behavior more than others.”

Michael Bloomberg’s campaign used the Bernie Bro to paint the Sanders campaign as divisive and radical.

“They feel entitled to be thugs because they are self-righteous and they think their cause validates any type of dangerous or threatening behavior that they engage in,” said Tim O’Brien, a senior adviser to the Bloomberg campaign, which suspended its run Wednesday.

O’Brien, who previously served as executive editor of Bloomberg Opinion, suggested the Bernie Bros are taking a page from Trump’s playbook in 2016.

“Both aim to be censorious. They like to clamp down on anyone who doesn’t share their point of view. Naysayers are threatened. And what they’re doing helps the candidate go unvetted," he said.

The tit-for-tat between the campaigns set up pundits for a Super Tuesday showdown. Ultimately, Bloomberg performed abysmally. But former vice president Joe Biden resurrected his campaign and exposed holes in the Sanders coalition by shining in states with large majorities of African-Americans and among college-educated white voters.

Whoever secures the Democratic nomination come July will need the support of those outside his diehard base. Mark Longabaugh, a media consultant who advised Sanders during his insurgent 2016 campaign, suspects the Bernie Bros debate will snowball into a greater skepticism of the senator’s ability to unify and lead.

“There are myriad ways that Senator Sanders has to step up if he’s going to seize control and be the front-runner. He has to lead the entire party, not just part of the party,” said Longabaugh, who parted ways with the campaign in February 2019. “His nomination cannot be a hostile takeover.”
User avatar
Anonymous Bosch
Posts: 10512
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Northern California [originally from the UK]

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:54 pm
Anonymous Bosch wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:09 pm Sanders vs. Biden Is About to Get Really, Really Ugly
Vice News wrote:It didn’t take long for some Sanders supporters to start passing around a video of Biden’s many stumbles and calling him mentally unfit for the presidency.

BURLINGTON, Vermont — Sen. Bernie Sanders has called for substance and civility, but some of his high-profile supporters only want to talk about Joe Biden’s supposed senility.

After Super Tuesday, the Democratic nomination has essentially been whittled down to a two-man race between Sanders and former Vice President Joe Biden, and it’s going to get really, really nasty, threatening a return to the conditions that contributed to a Democratic Party meltdown in 2016.

“I like Joe. Joe is a decent guy, and I do not want this campaign to degenerate into a Trump-type effort where we’re attacking each other, where it’s personal attacks,” Sanders said Wednesday. “That is the last thing this country wants.”

But that’s exactly what the country is going to get, if not from Sanders himself, then from aggrieved surrogates already going nuclear. It didn’t take long for some of them to start passing around a video of Biden’s many stumbles at debates and on the campaign trail and calling him mentally unfit for the presidency, an attack that will no doubt be re-upped if the two men meet one-on-one on the next debate stage.
And Biden's angry response...
Spoiler:
I will say, though, that it seems entirely fair and appropriate to raise Biden's mental acuity as an issue, given his age and periodic campaign stumbles.
Absolutely.

It'll be interesting to see if he's able to present a more convincing rebuttal than Brooks though (which still amuses me greatly).
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Holman »

Kraken wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:21 pm Right-click/open in private window didn't work? Here's the whole thing.
Spoiler:
On the eve of the South Carolina Democratic debate, a reporter named Scott Bixby exposed the private Twitter account of a Bernie Sanders staffer that was littered with sexist and homophobic attacks on politicians, journalists, and celebrities. The Sanders campaign promptly fired the staffer, issued a condemnation of his behavior, and turned its attention to Charleston. All the while, Bixby, a writer from The Daily Beast, watched as hundreds of messages, seemingly from incensed Bernie supporters, flooded his phone.

When reached by e-mail two days later, Bixby declined an interview.

“I’ve gotten some pretty specific threats to my safety and that of my husband (also, my freaking dog) so I’m just trying not to give the horde any more oxygen for the time being,” he wrote.

That horde may be better known as the Bernie Bros. When it was first coined, in a humor piece by the Atlantic’s Robinson Meyer in October 2015, the term “Berniebro” was meant to satirize a particular Sanders-supporting demographic: young white males who passionately defended and supported the presidential candidate online. Five years later, polls show that the Sanders coalition has broadened significantly. In Nevada, he led the Democratic primary field across a variety of voter categories: men and women, white and Latino, union and non-union, college and non-college. But the combustible mentality that “Berniebro” was meant to caricature still burns among a subset of his supporters.
Get Metro Headlines in your inboxThe 10 top local news stories from metro Boston and around New England delivered daily.

For people like Bixby, on the receiving end of their ire, the attacks can feel like a swarm of locusts. Masses of social media users post angry messages, flood inboxes, rattle off personal attacks, make vague threats, and then move on to their next victim. On occasion, the wrath trickles outside the online world, inciting late-night bullhorn protests outside public officials’ homes on the eve of the Nevada caucuses last month and “Lock her up” chants outside the Democratic National Convention in 2016. Some justify their behavior as the battle cry of warriors for the Bernie cause: They’re fighting online and in real life, they say, on behalf of those most hurt by rising income inequality, lack of access to health care, and crushing debt.

Sanders and many of his less combative supporters depict the Bernie Bros as outliers within a larger coalition. In the Democratic debate in Las Vegas on Feb. 19, Sanders referred to “a few people who make ugly remarks" among his online followers. He also suggested that foreign trolls could be responsible for stoking toxicity online, alluding to the Russian disinformation campaign in the lead-up to the 2016 election.

Just how many Bernie Bros are there — and who are they? That remains tough to pin down. Most of the attacks take place on Twitter, which is used by just 22 percent of Americans. Meanwhile, just a 10th of Twitter users are responsible for 80 percent of all tweets, according to the Pew Research Center. So while pro-Sanders spite on the platform can seem widespread, it seems unlikely to reflect the broader attitudes of his supporters.

Regardless of numbers, the Bernie Bros mentality does spill offline and can have a damning impact on a Sanders campaign.

Take Robert Camacho of Concord, Calif. The 48-year-old, who is gay, recalls being called a homophobic slur and spat on by some Sanders supporters at the Democratic National Convention where he served as a delegate for Clinton.

“I had never experienced anything like it in the 30 years that I’ve been into politics. Just so much hate,” said Camacho. “Bernie should have done more to calm down a lot of his supporters, but he didn’t or couldn’t. And it was chaos."

The 2016 Democratic convention instilled a sense of cynicism and anger within certain Sanders’ supporters emboldened by the WikiLeaks e-mails that suggested the 2016 Democratic primary was tilted in Clinton’s favor. Today, his most ardent online advocates appear perpetually on the defensive, condemning any article or comment that criticizes Sanders or promotes a rival candidate.

Some Sanders supporters, like 43-year-old Jessica Vandett, believe that online belligerence can do more harm than good. As a single mother and former nurse, Vandett said affordable health care is her number one issue. She spends her free time as one of the sole Sanders volunteers knocking on doors in the Appalachian region of North Carolina, rather than picking fights online.

“It’s pointless and it damages the campaign,” she said of the trolling and harassment. “It’s horrible that people have a perception that Bernie supporters are like these few rotten apples."

But some of those behind the keyboards believe the stakes justify the intensity of their tactics.

Sean Carey, a 33-year-old Bernie supporter from Iowa, wasn’t very political until he saw people lose homes overnight as an employee of a mortgage company during the 2008 financial crash.

“I don’t embody the Bernie Bro firebrand. It’s not my mode of being, maybe because of how I was raised or my being from Iowa,” Carey said. He is active on Twitter but refrains from pointed and profane attacks. His feed consists of retweeted pro-Sanders arguments and replies that begin with a first-name greeting.

“But I do think it has value," Carey said of online trolling. "To me, making some affluent suburban voter comfortable on Twitter is less important than making the people affected by racism, classism, and entrenched policy feel protected and seen.”

Riann Ponti, meanwhile, readily admits to being aggressive online. The 32-year-old drifted in and out of homelessness throughout his youth in southern California with his drug-addicted father.

Today, he calls Sanders “the only person in my life who’s ever told the truth.” He has been banned on social media countless times and admits he projects a much more belligerent persona online than in daily life. “Social interactions online are battlefields," he said, "especially during political primaries.”

Ponti directs roughly 80 percent of his venom at people on the far right. But occasionally, he’ll turn on Democrats.

“I want to shine the bright light of truth so brightly that it might hurt," he said. "I want the party to have to look. I want people to stop hurting, but sometimes that requires cutting out a cancer. Chemotherapy hurts, but cancer kills. I consider myself social chemotherapy. Yeah, I’m a little toxic, but right now someone has to be.”

The Sanders campaign has maintained that the conduct of its most aggressive proponents does not represent the broader approach of his supporters.

“I’m not going to tell you we don’t have some jerks out there,” Sanders said in a CNN town hall on Feb. 24. “I do want to say to those folks: We do not want your support if you think that what our campaign is about is making ugly attacks on other candidates. We don’t want you.”

But the Bernie Bros could prove to be a thorn in Sanders’ side as the primary season barrels ahead and the stakes heighten. In the Las Vegas debate, Pete Buttigieg, who has since dropped out, tried to draw a connection between Sanders’ message and the angry sentiment of his online supporters: “I think you have to accept some responsibility and ask yourself what it is about your campaign, in particular, that seems to be motivating this behavior more than others.”

Michael Bloomberg’s campaign used the Bernie Bro to paint the Sanders campaign as divisive and radical.

“They feel entitled to be thugs because they are self-righteous and they think their cause validates any type of dangerous or threatening behavior that they engage in,” said Tim O’Brien, a senior adviser to the Bloomberg campaign, which suspended its run Wednesday.

O’Brien, who previously served as executive editor of Bloomberg Opinion, suggested the Bernie Bros are taking a page from Trump’s playbook in 2016.

“Both aim to be censorious. They like to clamp down on anyone who doesn’t share their point of view. Naysayers are threatened. And what they’re doing helps the candidate go unvetted," he said.

The tit-for-tat between the campaigns set up pundits for a Super Tuesday showdown. Ultimately, Bloomberg performed abysmally. But former vice president Joe Biden resurrected his campaign and exposed holes in the Sanders coalition by shining in states with large majorities of African-Americans and among college-educated white voters.

Whoever secures the Democratic nomination come July will need the support of those outside his diehard base. Mark Longabaugh, a media consultant who advised Sanders during his insurgent 2016 campaign, suspects the Bernie Bros debate will snowball into a greater skepticism of the senator’s ability to unify and lead.

“There are myriad ways that Senator Sanders has to step up if he’s going to seize control and be the front-runner. He has to lead the entire party, not just part of the party,” said Longabaugh, who parted ways with the campaign in February 2019. “His nomination cannot be a hostile takeover.”
Thanks!

I'll sheepishly add that I didn't know the right-click trick, but apparently it doesn't work in Firefox.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Anonymous Bosch
Posts: 10512
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Northern California [originally from the UK]

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Holman wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:54 pm I'll sheepishly add that I didn't know the right-click trick, but apparently it doesn't work in Firefox.
FWIW, I suggest installing the Bypass Paywalls add-on for Firefox (just click the "Download and install the latest version" link on the GitHub page).
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21196
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Grifman »

This is hilarious, no matter who you are for:

https://deadline.com/2020/03/joe-biden- ... 202876171/
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken »

Holman wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:54 pm
I'll sheepishly add that I didn't know the right-click trick, but apparently it doesn't work in Firefox.
I use it in Firefox routinely. Only a handful of sites (Bloomberg and WSJ come to mind) always defeat it. Sometimes you can get around that by disabling Javascript (using the Disable Javascript plugin). But I'm a Globe subscriber so I haven't tested their paywall.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken »

Maddow asks Warren about Bernie Bros.

Post Reply