Go Bernie!

[LordMortis]

I don't align with him 100%, but maybe 80%, and that's a helluva lot higher than anybody else in politics.

I'm guessing I align with him about 50% and have a strong disalignment with him for about 20%. But I really believe and have seen evidence that I know where I stand with him and I really believe he is fighting for the working class as well as the disadvantaged and that puts him so far in front of everybody else.

If he can put us on the right track for the 50%, I'll swallow the bitter 20% pill.

[LordMortis]

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/08/02/be ... mocracy-2/

[El Guapo]

My main concern with a Bernie Sanders candidacy is that I am going to have to read a ton more Facebook comments saying "Feel the Bern", and I am already tired of that.

[LordMortis]

My main concern with a Bernie Sanders candidacy is that I am going to have to read a ton more Facebook comments saying "Feel the Bern", and I am already tired of that.

I'm happy I've missed those. I do have to read too many College wants to be free posts on facebook and that's one of his pet projects I strongly disagree with. It dismays me to see so much focus on that.

[Kraken]

You knew it would happen sooner or later: The big money finally got to Bernie.

[Moliere]

[Chaz]

That was brought up in a different forum. It certainly doesn't look great, but paying them even that much makes him one of 35 senators who even pay their interns, and of that group, 11 of them only pay some interns.

[LordMortis]

That was brought up in a different forum. It certainly doesn't look great, but paying them even that much makes him one of 35 senators who even pay their interns, and of that group, 11 of them only pay some interns.

This. I will also add in addition to not looking great it is flat out disappointing even if it could be a lot worse.

[Isgrimnur]

But, but ... job creators!

[LawBeefaroni]

They're interns. Any pay is a bonus. $12 an hour is generous.

[Isgrimnur]

1) (n.) a student or trainee who works, sometimes without pay, at a trade or occupation in order to gain work experience.
2) (v.) confine (someone) as a prisoner, especially for political or military reasons.

[Holman]

Right. Traditionally interns are unpaid, and the reward comes in the form of experience and mentoring.

On the other hand, that model has changed, with "internships" and "unpaid internships" being different things. When I was getting a library degree, I interned at a university library for $20 an hour.

[El Guapo]

During my first year of law school I interviewed for an unpaid internship with the Rhode Island governor's office. Most of the interview consisted of the interviewer talking about how thoroughly corrupt Rhode Island's politics are. I thought to myself, "Soooo...does this mean that my internship won't be unpaid after all?"

[Isgrimnur]

Depends on how hard you worked at it.

[LordMortis]

They're interns. Any pay is a bonus. $12 an hour is generous.

In our current structure, yes. But Bernie is trying to burn the current structure down and build a new one.

I don't happen to agree with a $15 minimum wage and every one who works everywhere should be able make a living wage at any job everywhere but that's part of his platform and consistent integrity is part of his appeal even for things I don't agree with. It gives me hope that he will work toward the things I do agree with.

Internships and extending the years of nonemployment for free labor is something his camp is supposed to be against.

...

I'm not disillusioned, merely kind of disappointed. I'd happily see him recant on or qualify his minimum wage agenda into something I agree with. I'd agree with him and support him even more.

That and his stance on College wants to be free for everyone are two of my biggest sticking points with him.

I had more to say but then I had to do work for about two hours and lost my fragile train of thought.

[LawBeefaroni]

They're interns. Any pay is a bonus. $12 an hour is generous.

In our current structure, yes. But Bernie is trying to burn the current structure down and build a new one.

I don't happen to agree with a $15 minimum wage and every one who works everywhere should be able make a living wage at any job everywhere but that's part of his platform and consistent integrity is part of his appeal even for things I don't agree with. It gives me hope that he will work toward the things I do agree with.

Internships and extending the years of nonemployment for free labor is something his camp is supposed to be against.

...

They're interns. They're supposedly gaining valuable experience for free. They are usually either rich kids with connections and no job or extremely ambitious kids who value the particular experience over money. It's not an equitable system (see also NCAA Division I) but it's not the same debate as minimum/living wage.

As soon as internships become competitively paid positions, interns will be hired based on their current value, not their future potential (or hotness, in some cases). And that defeats the whole point.

As it is, he seems to be paying a generous amount to his interns. Why is he going to want to handicap himself with a lesser staff?

He could also attempt to "burn the current structure down" by refusing to show up to Senate votes and committees and wandering around DC handing out free sandwiches paid for with campaign donations while dressed as the Monopoly guy in drag. But that too would be self-defeating.

[noxiousdog]

I don't buy it.

Either everyone is entitled to a minimum wage or they aren't. It's pretty binary. I don't see Seattle exempting high school students (under 16 get 85% of minimum) from their new laws.

[LordMortis]

They're interns. They're supposedly gaining valuable experience for free. They are usually either rich kids with connections and no job or extremely ambitious kids who value the particular experience over money. It's not an equitable system (see also NCAA Division I) but it's not the same debate as minimum/living wage.

It is part of the same debate. It's the ever more productive labor market getting more free labor. Non paid Internships and non living wage internships extending post college or non college unemployment is an exact complaint of the progressive movement. of the Occupy Movement. Of the millennials. of Bernie Sanders and his camp.

As it is, he seems to be paying a generous amount to his interns.

That's why it's simply disappointing and not completely bitter hypocrisy.

[Defiant]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Are there any benefits that come with the position? (eg, if they were to provide lunch, that would probably compensate for the $3)

2. Don't most minimum wage plans get implemented gradually? (eg, raising it say $1 a year until it reaches the new level)

[El Guapo]

They're interns. Any pay is a bonus. $12 an hour is generous.

In our current structure, yes. But Bernie is trying to burn the current structure down and build a new one.

I don't happen to agree with a $15 minimum wage and every one who works everywhere should be able make a living wage at any job everywhere but that's part of his platform and consistent integrity is part of his appeal even for things I don't agree with. It gives me hope that he will work toward the things I do agree with.

Internships and extending the years of nonemployment for free labor is something his camp is supposed to be against.

...

They're interns. They're supposedly gaining valuable experience for free. They are usually either rich kids with connections and no job or extremely ambitious kids who value the particular experience over money. It's not an equitable system (see also NCAA Division I) but it's not the same debate as minimum/living wage.

They're usually rich kids or ambitious kids who value the experience over money *because they're unpaid positions*. A rich kid can afford to work for no money for a few months, while that is going to be disqualifying for poor kids who lack family money.

Hence the inequity of unpaid internships. Rich kids get to take these internships which give them valuable experience (and way more valuable connections) while poor kids are disqualified by the lack of pay and therefore cannot get the same experience and connections.

[LawBeefaroni]

They're interns. They're supposedly gaining valuable experience for free. They are usually either rich kids with connections and no job or extremely ambitious kids who value the particular experience over money. It's not an equitable system (see also NCAA Division I) but it's not the same debate as minimum/living wage.

Non paid Internships and non living wage internships extending post college or non college unemployment is an exact complaint of the progressive movement. of the Occupy Movement. Of the millennials. of Bernie Sanders and his camp.

Millennials can go cry a river. The rise of the internship is related directly to their desire to not take a job until they get the perfect position. No one hiring a record producer to work with Kanye West fresh out of college? No problem, take an internship at a record company. That $40M in VC money not flooding in for your selfie-sharing ap? No problem, intern at a startup. Work for free as long as your parents can afford it. Then sue, I guess.

[Isgrimnur]

The rise of the internship is related directly to their desire to not take a job until they get the perfect position.

[citation needed]

The idea that the young are at fault for there not being enough jobs for them seems ludicrous. But I'm sure you have evidence that all the power in the employment market lies with the 16-24 entrants.

[LawBeefaroni]

The rise of the internship is related directly to their desire to not take a job until they get the perfect position.

[citation needed]

The idea that the young are at fault for there not being enough jobs for them seems ludicrous. But I'm sure you have evidence that all the power in the employment market lies with the 16-24 entrants.

I'm not blaming them for there not being enough jobs. I'm blaming them for making unpaid internships as job replacement viable.

In recent years, internships remain as prevalent as ever—but their ability to confer a real career has faded along with the economy. In 2013, NACE reported that only 63 percent of graduating students who had held paid internships received a job offer by graduation. As for unpaid internships, students who have them are today hardly more likely to get a job offer (37 percent) than those who have no internship at all (35 percent).

But Millennials’ high hopes and desire for meaningful work drive them to seek out these internships over other options. Relentless optimists, Millennials would rather hold out for the best job. Unlike young Boomers and Xers, many Millennials would rather take an internship with the hopes of scaling the ladder at an existing business rather than risk being shut out of their desired field or venturing out on their own.

This generation is also increasingly removed from the shrinking and aging world of blue-collar work. For young Boomers and Xers, college wasn’t the only ticket to success. But few Millennials see any fruitful path that doesn’t require a college degree. The growing share of Millennials with degrees expects to make use of them—and see no future in any job associated with the “old” economy. So long as they are working in a high-prestige field, they view internships—however lowly—as a better investment in their future.

[By Neil Howe — Mr. Howe is the author of numerous books on American generational trends, including Millennials Rising. ]

[Isgrimnur]

And from the same article:

In 2013, NACE reported that only 63 percent of graduating students who had held paid internships received a job offer by graduation. As for unpaid internships, students who have them are today hardly more likely to get a job offer (37 percent) than those who have no internship at all (35 percent).
...
On the one hand, they would greatly prefer to see companies replace unpaid internships with permanent paid jobs. Yet they know that most of these positions won’t be replaced—which would close the only door to the industry of their dreams. These would-be workers are left with no easy options. Meanwhile, the only winners are the employers they hope so fervently to impress.

So, in effect, a lot of them are being exploited for free labor, given no real training, and being kicked to the curb when their useful time is done, with little to no benefit to their future prospects.

Regardless of them making viable by actually wanting to work in their chose n field, it's still the corporations that are taking unfair advantage of the situation.

DOL

The Fair Labor Standards Act, as interpreted by the Supreme Court, provides criteria for what is and is not legal regarding payment for internships. Six criteria must be applied when determining if an internship can be unpaid:

1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

If they're being used as glorified gophers with no actual training, then it fails to meet the requirements, and they should be sued.

[El Guapo]

Also:

But Millennials’ high hopes and desire for meaningful work drive them to seek out these internships over other options. Relentless optimists, Millennials would rather hold out for the best job. Unlike young Boomers and Xers, many Millennials would rather take an internship with the hopes of scaling the ladder at an existing business rather than risk being shut out of their desired field or venturing out on their own.

This strikes me as logical long-term thinking, to choose an unpaid internship which will give you a better chance of having a career in your desired field, over taking a paid position which would yield money in the short-term but may well make it harder to have a career in the desired field over the long-run. As long as you can keep the lights on in the short-term, anyway.

Man, millennials are the worst, what with them trying to fulfill long-term career ambitions in a tough job market.

[LawBeefaroni]

Also:

But Millennials’ high hopes and desire for meaningful work drive them to seek out these internships over other options. Relentless optimists, Millennials would rather hold out for the best job. Unlike young Boomers and Xers, many Millennials would rather take an internship with the hopes of scaling the ladder at an existing business rather than risk being shut out of their desired field or venturing out on their own.

This strikes me as logical long-term thinking, to choose an unpaid internship which will give you a better chance of having a career in your desired field, over taking a paid position which would yield money in the short-term but may well make it harder to have a career in the desired field over the long-run. As long as you can keep the lights on in the short-term, anyway.

And that's the tradeoff. You take less or no pay for [supposedly] better future prospects. Are you saying they should get full salary in addition to the added benefits of internship placement? Internships were never intended to be a substitute for a job.

Man, millennials are the worst, what with them trying to fulfill long-term career ambitions in a tough job market.

While complaining about being exploited at internships they chose? Yes. Perhaps they should also draw a salary for attending college.

[LordMortis]

This strikes me as logical long-term thinking

And for a company driven by profits it is logical to take advantage thinking. If I can fill work options with little responsibility by having rotating or temporary positions paying someone little to nothing, then I would create that environment over creating one with a paying job.

Now the market is shrunk and there is more competition for all jobs, but that's getting away from the real thought, the thought ND expressed. If you believe that all work entitles everyone to a livable wage, or in this specific case, $15 an hour then you should pay some one a livable wage (or in this case $15 an hour) for providing you with labor. Using internships to loop hole your statement damages your credibility and his credibility is part of why I am Bernie fanboi.

I'm not going to tell everyone stop the Bernie lovefest but it is disappointing.... even if I personally don't believe in mandating a livable minimum wage, while I do support other efforts at wage equity and expanding the middle the class...

[El Guapo]

Also:

But Millennials’ high hopes and desire for meaningful work drive them to seek out these internships over other options. Relentless optimists, Millennials would rather hold out for the best job. Unlike young Boomers and Xers, many Millennials would rather take an internship with the hopes of scaling the ladder at an existing business rather than risk being shut out of their desired field or venturing out on their own.

This strikes me as logical long-term thinking, to choose an unpaid internship which will give you a better chance of having a career in your desired field, over taking a paid position which would yield money in the short-term but may well make it harder to have a career in the desired field over the long-run. As long as you can keep the lights on in the short-term, anyway.

And that's the tradeoff. You take less or no pay for [supposedly] better future prospects. Are you saying they should get full salary in addition to the added benefits of internship placement? Internships were never intended to be a substitute for a job.

Man, millennials are the worst, what with them trying to fulfill long-term career ambitions in a tough job market.

While complaining about being exploited at internships they chose? Yes. Perhaps they should also draw a salary for attending college.

If your complaint is not about their decision-making but about people whining too much, sure. Though that's sadly not confined to Millennials.

I am inclined to think that minimum wage should apply to internships, at least ones that are not directly connected to an educational program (for which they are not, say, receiving college credit), though I am not wedded to that position.

[El Guapo]

This strikes me as logical long-term thinking

And for a company driven by profits it is logical to take advantage thinking. If I can fill work options with little responsibility by having rotating or temporary positions paying someone little to nothing, then I would create that environment over creating one with a paying job.

Now the market is shrunk and there is more competition for all jobs, but that's getting away from the real thought, the thought ND expressed. If you believe that all work entitles everyone to a livable wage, or in this specific case, $15 an hour then you should pay some one a livable wage (or in this case $15 an hour) for providing you with labor. Using internships to loop hole your statement damages your credibility and his credibility is part of why I am Bernie fanboi.

I'm not going to tell everyone stop the Bernie lovefest but it is disappointing.... even if I personally don't believe in mandating a livable minimum wage, while I do support other efforts at wage equity and expanding the middle the class...

He probably should be paying them $15 / hour. That said, paying his interns and paying them significantly above the current federal minimum wage puts him in the 95th percentile in terms of intern-treatment, so I'm not going to ding him too much for that.

[LordMortis]

Perhaps they should also draw a salary for attending college.

If you are providing valuable labor for a college you probably should be drawing a salary and often students do, don't they? Hasn't this been a point of contention in college sports? I would contend that unpaid students doing research are getting screwed.

OtOH, Student Teaching, is an interesting topic. Student Teachers don't get paid, but they are often more work for the mentor teacher/district than the service they are providing. Should they expect a wage for performing a job? (I'd say "No." but then I also don't think college should be free and don't have a livable wage for everybody agenda.)

[LordMortis]

He probably should be paying them $15 / hour. That said, paying his interns and paying them significantly above the current federal minimum wage puts him in the 95th percentile in terms of intern-treatment, so I'm not going to ding him too much for that.

Again, that's why I am disappointed and not disillusioned.

[noxiousdog]

Why should interns be able to choose to work for less than minimum wage, but not anyone else? What makes an "intern"?

[LawBeefaroni]

Why should interns be able to choose to work for less than minimum wage, but not anyone else? What makes an "intern"?

Earning college credit and/or working for a non-profit in a learning capacity.

Any other "intern" is illegal, IIRC. Same as anyone else who "chooses" to work for below minimum wage.

[noxiousdog]

Why should interns be able to choose to work for less than minimum wage, but not anyone else? What makes an "intern"?

Earning college credit and/or working for a non-profit in a learning capacity.

Any other "intern" is illegal, IIRC. Same as anyone else who "chooses" to work for below minimum wage.

Ok. That's more reasonable. I didn't realize the definition was so strict.

[LawBeefaroni]

Why should interns be able to choose to work for less than minimum wage, but not anyone else? What makes an "intern"?

Earning college credit and/or working for a non-profit in a learning capacity.

Any other "intern" is illegal, IIRC. Same as anyone else who "chooses" to work for below minimum wage.

Ok. That's more reasonable. I didn't realize the definition was so strict.

Here's an actual authoritative source (it appears that there's no real test for non-profits, just for for-profits).

[hepcat]

I guess I don't understand why folks are arguing over this. Interns have always been, as far as I know, students or such who enter the job market not as a traditional employee, but as a person trying to gain either college credit or job experience in a particular profession. They were either paid nothing, or very little. I thought that was pretty much the widely held view.

[LawBeefaroni]

I guess I don't understand why folks are arguing over this. Interns have always been, as far as I know, students or such who enter the job market not as a traditional employee, but as a person trying to gain either college credit or job experience in a particular profession. They were either paid nothing, or very little. I thought that was pretty much the widely held view.

Apparently it's been determined that the thing keeping the 99% down is unpaid/underpaid internships.

[Isgrimnur]

The discussion now is how they aren't getting the job experience they were expecting, are instead being used for scut work, and aren't getting any benefit to the time invested, short or long term.

[Isgrimnur]

Apparently it's been determined that the thing keeping the 99% down is unpaid/underpaid internships.

You've seriously got your snark dialed to 11 today. Is it this issue, or are you just having a bad day?

[LawBeefaroni]

The discussion now is how they aren't getting the job experience they were expecting, are instead being used for scut work, and aren't getting any benefit to the time invested, short or long term.

Which shouldn't pass the DOL sniff test.