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Go Bernie!

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Fireball
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Fireball » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:03 am

Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:04 am

:lol: I am going to overlook the association that was implied there and just say that I never get tired of that meme.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by ImLawBoy » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:14 am

Kraken wrote:I do think it's time for Clinton and Obama to have a come-to-Jesus meeting with Sanders.
Something tells me that wouldn't work so well. ;)
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by tjg_marantz » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:06 pm

Perfect ending. LOL.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Max Peck » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:05 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Kraken wrote:I do think it's time for Clinton and Obama to have a come-to-Jesus meeting with Sanders.
Something tells me that wouldn't work so well. ;)
Or would it... (Not that I don't appreciate the joke :) )
Obama's testimonial came less than an hour after the president met privately with Sanders at the White House to discuss the future of Sanders so-called political revolution - one that will not include him taking up residence at the White House. Sanders emerged from the meeting subdued and indicated he had gotten the message. Although he stopped short of endorsing Clinton, the Vermont senator told reporters he planned to press for his "issues" - rather than victory - at the party's July convention and would work with Clinton to defeat Trump. "Needless to say, I am going to do everything in my power and I will work as hard as I can to make sure that Donald Trump does not become president of the United States," Sanders said, standing in the White House driveway with his wife, Jane, at his side.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:19 am

Max Peck wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Kraken wrote:I do think it's time for Clinton and Obama to have a come-to-Jesus meeting with Sanders.
Something tells me that wouldn't work so well. ;)
Or would it... (Not that I don't appreciate the joke :) )
I took a failed stab at turning it into a "because he's not a Democrat" joke and wisely didn't post it.

It does look like Bernie's going to fall into line on his own terms. Bully for him. He had a helluva run and deserves a fun endgame.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:25 am

Man, I was posting on facebook with some relatives who are devout Sanders people. It's like talking to japanese soldiers who got stranded on remote islands after ww2 and never found out the war ended. They're still saying say the convention might give the nomination to Sanders, and posting about one NC superdelegate that came out for Sanders.

I wonder if they will give up on this when Clinton is inaugurated.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Zaxxon » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:30 am

El Guapo wrote:Man, I was posting on facebook with some relatives who are devout Sanders people. It's like talking to japanese soldiers who got stranded on remote islands after ww2 and never found out the war ended. They're still saying say the convention might give the nomination to Sanders, and posting about one NC superdelegate that came out for Sanders.

I wonder if they will give up on this when Clinton is inaugurated.
Nice timing. I just made the mistake of going down the rabbit hole on some friends-of-friends' Facebook comments re: Sanders/Hillary.

#wedontgotoravenholmanymore

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:37 am

Zaxxon wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Man, I was posting on facebook with some relatives who are devout Sanders people. It's like talking to japanese soldiers who got stranded on remote islands after ww2 and never found out the war ended. They're still saying say the convention might give the nomination to Sanders, and posting about one NC superdelegate that came out for Sanders.

I wonder if they will give up on this when Clinton is inaugurated.
Nice timing. I just made the mistake of going down the rabbit hole on some friends-of-friends' Facebook comments re: Sanders/Hillary.

#wedontgotoravenholmanymore
It's fascinating watching the left-wing Tea Party (side note: I have occasionally seen people refer to the "coffee party" as a tea party counter-party) forming before my eyes on my Facebook feed. The latest update is my Sanders relatives are debating whether Elizabeth Warren is still progressive after endorsing Hillary Clinton (one of the last leading democratic party figures to do so!), or whether she's been "corrupted by Washington.").

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kurth » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:02 am

El Guapo wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Man, I was posting on facebook with some relatives who are devout Sanders people. It's like talking to japanese soldiers who got stranded on remote islands after ww2 and never found out the war ended. They're still saying say the convention might give the nomination to Sanders, and posting about one NC superdelegate that came out for Sanders.

I wonder if they will give up on this when Clinton is inaugurated.
Nice timing. I just made the mistake of going down the rabbit hole on some friends-of-friends' Facebook comments re: Sanders/Hillary.

#wedontgotoravenholmanymore
It's fascinating watching the left-wing Tea Party (side note: I have occasionally seen people refer to the "coffee party" as a tea party counter-party) forming before my eyes on my Facebook feed. The latest update is my Sanders relatives are debating whether Elizabeth Warren is still progressive after endorsing Hillary Clinton (one of the last leading democratic party figures to do so!), or whether she's been "corrupted by Washington.").
I wonder if these people have ever been to Washington. It's actually pretty nice these days! A hell of a lot nicer than it was back in the late 90s when I lived there.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:41 am

El Guapo wrote:It's fascinating watching the left-wing Tea Party (side note: I have occasionally seen people refer to the "coffee party" as a tea party counter-party) forming before my eyes on my Facebook feed. The latest update is my Sanders relatives are debating whether Elizabeth Warren is still progressive after endorsing Hillary Clinton (one of the last leading democratic party figures to do so!), or whether she's been "corrupted by Washington.").
Did she endorse Clinton? I don't think that makes her "corrupted" in anything more than a literary sense but I do think it's disappointing. It's a concession, as a democrat, explicitly to beat Trump, that is the exact step on the path pavement to hell, but Warren is still a democrat and she waited until after the writing was on the wall before endorsing Clinton. I get her decision. I don't stand behind it. but I understand it.

/runs to the Internet...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/10/us/po ... .html?_r=0
Mrs. Clinton’s aides had been pressuring Ms. Warren for an endorsement, and the senator decided to do so after talking with Mr. Sanders over the weekend, aides close to her said.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:54 am

LordMortis wrote:
El Guapo wrote:It's fascinating watching the left-wing Tea Party (side note: I have occasionally seen people refer to the "coffee party" as a tea party counter-party) forming before my eyes on my Facebook feed. The latest update is my Sanders relatives are debating whether Elizabeth Warren is still progressive after endorsing Hillary Clinton (one of the last leading democratic party figures to do so!), or whether she's been "corrupted by Washington.").
Did she endorse Clinton? I don't think that makes her "corrupted" in anything more than a literary sense but I do think it's disappointing. It's a concession, as a democrat, explicitly to beat Trump, that is the exact step on the path pavement to hell, but Warren is still a democrat and she waited until after the writing was on the wall before endorsing Clinton. I get her decision. I don't stand behind it. but I understand it.

/runs to the Internet...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/10/us/po ... .html?_r=0
Mrs. Clinton’s aides had been pressuring Ms. Warren for an endorsement, and the senator decided to do so after talking with Mr. Sanders over the weekend, aides close to her said.
She did endorse Clinton. It's obvious from context that she favors Sanders and only endorsed Clinton once it was 100% (well, 99.99999%) sure that she would be the nominee, such that she's endorsing her in the context where it's either her or Trump. So it's kind of comical that the endorsement would be viewed as Warren being "corrupted".

I'm curious about you saying that you "don't stand behind" Warren endorsing Clinton. Would you prefer that she not do so at the point where it's either Clinton or Trump?

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:01 pm

The chief difference between Warren and Sanders (well, besides gender) is that the former is pragmatic. She waited until the last nail in the Bernie campaign's coffin was driven all the way in. You're either on the Stop Trump bus or off the bus after the VW microbus in the other lane blew a gasket.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:12 pm

El Guapo wrote:I'm curious about you saying that you "don't stand behind" Warren endorsing Clinton. Would you prefer that she not do so at the point where it's either Clinton or Trump?
I would. I prefer Warren to be the bulldog she has always been rather than hinting that she'll st. I would prefer her to say "Mrs Clinton and I have fundamental differences in the way we believe we should govern and I cannot endorse her, even if I very much do not want Donald Trump to be our next President." It would never happen. When it's all said and done Democrats get in line and Republicans get in line. And we let powerbrokers take advantage of this. It's exactly what I don't like about our system but it's what I would prefer.
Kraken wrote:The chief difference between Warren and Sanders (well, besides gender) is that the former is pragmatic. She waited until the last nail in the Bernie campaign's coffin was driven all the way in. You're either on the Stop Trump bus or off the bus after the VW microbus in the other lane blew a gasket.
I understand it. I don't care for it. But I understand it.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:24 pm

LordMortis wrote:
El Guapo wrote:I'm curious about you saying that you "don't stand behind" Warren endorsing Clinton. Would you prefer that she not do so at the point where it's either Clinton or Trump?
I would. I prefer Warren to be the bulldog she has always been rather than hinting that she'll st. I would prefer her to say "Mrs Clinton and I have fundamental differences in the way we believe we should govern and I cannot endorse her, even if I very much do not want Donald Trump to be our next President." It would never happen. When it's all said and done Democrats get in line and Republicans get in line. And we let powerbrokers take advantage of this. It's exactly what I don't like about our system but it's what I would prefer.
You realize that her doing so would significantly increase the odds that Donald Trump is the next President?

She's still free to make the case for Clinton negatively - i.e. talk 90% about why Trump is awful, and 10% about Clinton's upsides.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:56 pm

El Guapo wrote:You realize that her doing so would significantly increase the odds that Donald Trump is the next President?
What? You mean "her doing so" means Clinton getting the nod for democratic candidate?
She's still free to make the case for Clinton negatively - i.e. talk 90% about why Trump is awful, and 10% about Clinton's upsides.
Again, I understand why she did what she did. I don't have to like it or even respect it. It's not worthy of contempt (given that she literally waited as long as she could and she has reasons aka "Trump can't be the next president") but nor do I believe it's worthy of praise.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:06 pm

El Guapo wrote:
LordMortis wrote:
El Guapo wrote:I'm curious about you saying that you "don't stand behind" Warren endorsing Clinton. Would you prefer that she not do so at the point where it's either Clinton or Trump?
I would. I prefer Warren to be the bulldog she has always been rather than hinting that she'll st. I would prefer her to say "Mrs Clinton and I have fundamental differences in the way we believe we should govern and I cannot endorse her, even if I very much do not want Donald Trump to be our next President." It would never happen. When it's all said and done Democrats get in line and Republicans get in line. And we let powerbrokers take advantage of this. It's exactly what I don't like about our system but it's what I would prefer.
You realize that her doing so would significantly increase the odds that Donald Trump is the next President?

She's still free to make the case for Clinton negatively - i.e. talk 90% about why Trump is awful, and 10% about Clinton's upsides.
The two are neither friends nor natural allies, and an outward show of unity won't change that. Once their mutual goal of defeating Trump is accomplished Warren can get back to her progressive agenda and Clinton can get back to maximizing her own power and wealth.

I'll rethink my opinion of Warren if she accepts the VP slot or a cabinet position. Indications are that Warren's primary goal is to gain the Senate majority, so I'll be disappointed if that happens and she leaves the Senate anyway.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:20 pm

Kraken wrote:I'll rethink my opinion of Warren if she accepts the VP slot or a cabinet position. Indications are that Warren's primary goal is to gain the Senate majority, so I'll be disappointed if that happens and she leaves the Senate anyway.
Yep. Though really I'd raise an eyebrow and then rethink my opinion after seeing how she acts in that position.

For instance, what if Clinton made Warren the head Federal Reserve. I'd raise a serious eyebrow, but if Warren is incredibly effective as the head of the Fed, it's good me, Warren, and Clinton.

I'm having a hard time seeing how being VP could be better for me as citizen than the fight she is putting up for change and is effecting semi successfully, in Congress. I'd be pretty damned skeptical of the move. I'll dislike the move but there will be a chance to earn my trust back.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:14 pm

LordMortis wrote:
El Guapo wrote:You realize that her doing so would significantly increase the odds that Donald Trump is the next President?
What? You mean "her doing so" means Clinton getting the nod for democratic candidate?
By "her doing so" I mean Warren issuing the statement that you'd have preferred (e.g., "I cannot endorse Clinton though I do not want Trump to be the next president") would dramatically increase the odds that Trump would be the next President. Because then more Sanders supporters / progressives stay home or vote against Clinton (whether for Trump or otherwise). Maintaining a sharp Clinton / Sanders divide is one of Trump's conditions for winning in the fall, and Warren refusing to endorse Clinton would clearly exacerbate that divide.

Note that Warren endorsing Clinton does not increase the odds of Clinton getting the nod as the democratic candidate, since Clinton already won (notwithstanding some superdelegate delusions among Sanders supporters).

I am surprised that I'm not seeing more complaints from Sanders supporters about Warren not endorsing Sanders months ago, when that might have made a difference in the outcome of the primary.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:16 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Kraken wrote:I'll rethink my opinion of Warren if she accepts the VP slot or a cabinet position. Indications are that Warren's primary goal is to gain the Senate majority, so I'll be disappointed if that happens and she leaves the Senate anyway.
Yep. Though really I'd raise an eyebrow and then rethink my opinion after seeing how she acts in that position.

For instance, what if Clinton made Warren the head Federal Reserve. I'd raise a serious eyebrow, but if Warren is incredibly effective as the head of the Fed, it's good me, Warren, and Clinton.

I'm having a hard time seeing how being VP could be better for me as citizen than the fight she is putting up for change and is effecting semi successfully, in Congress. I'd be pretty damned skeptical of the move. I'll dislike the move but there will be a chance to earn my trust back.
At a certain point, do you trust Warren's judgment or not? If you do, and she decides to accept a position as Clinton's VP candidate, then presumably she's made the decision that she can best advance her progressive agenda in that role. If you don't, then what does it matter what she does?

Relatedly, I think it virtually certain that Warren would not accept the VP nod unless there's some plan in place to ensure that democrats retain the seat. We discussed this elsewhere, but the democratic supermajority in the MA legislature would seem to give democrats options on this (and FWIW stories indicate that Reid is satisfied to the point where he's fine with Warren as a VP pick).

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:31 pm

Reversing it
El Guapo wrote:do you trust Warren's judgment
So far, more often than not.
or not? At a certain point,
At a certain point, or not.

Historically, I've been a fan of Warren's agenda but...
Relatedly, I think it virtually certain that Warren would not accept the VP nod unless there's some plan in place to ensure that democrats retain the seat.
Well, do you trust her judgement or not? Should it not matter if she had a plan if you trust her judgement?

...

Wasn't it that great Democrat president, Reagan who said "Trust but verify?"

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:58 pm

LordMortis wrote:Reversing it
El Guapo wrote:do you trust Warren's judgment
So far, more often than not.
or not? At a certain point,
At a certain point, or not.

Historically, I've been a fan of Warren's agenda but...
Relatedly, I think it virtually certain that Warren would not accept the VP nod unless there's some plan in place to ensure that democrats retain the seat.
Well, do you trust her judgement or not? Should it not matter if she had a plan if you trust her judgement?

...

Wasn't it that great Democrat president, Reagan who said "Trust but verify?"
Yes, I generally trust her judgment, so I would assume that she's fine with whatever plan to keep her Senate seat (at least until any contrary information came to light). But you were the one who was pre-skeptical of Warren endorsing or accepting a VP slot from Clinton, which is why I asked the question.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:03 pm

El Guapo wrote:Yes, I generally trust her judgment, so I would assume that she's fine with whatever plan to keep her Senate seat (at least until any contrary information came to light). But you were the one who was pre-skeptical of Warren endorsing or accepting a VP slot from Clinton, which is why I asked the question.
I am disappointed in her endorsement. It is evidence of why I should not trust her, but I still do. It move in the direction toward
At a certain point,
I don't know where that point is but the endorsement is a compass pointing toward it.

I am skeptical of accepting the VP. Warren will have found that point if she take the VP and she will have to earn that trust back. She will have lost the benefit of the doubt for me. Which is not to say I hold up my hands in frustration and turn my back on her.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:10 pm

LordMortis wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Yes, I generally trust her judgment, so I would assume that she's fine with whatever plan to keep her Senate seat (at least until any contrary information came to light). But you were the one who was pre-skeptical of Warren endorsing or accepting a VP slot from Clinton, which is why I asked the question.
I am disappointed in her endorsement. It is evidence of why I should not trust her, but I still do. It move in the direction toward
At a certain point,
I don't know where that point is but the endorsement is a compass pointing toward it.

I am skeptical of accepting the VP. Warren will have found that point if she take the VP and she will have to earn that trust back. She will have lost the benefit of the doubt for me. Which is not to say I hold up my hands in frustration and turn my back on her.
See I find this interesting. Do you think that Warren more or less shares your political values? The answer to that question shouldn't be all that different post endorsement than pre-endorsement - her track record and the things that she has advocated are all the same.

If the answer to that is yes, and this is about tactics - i.e the best way to advance progressive goals, defeat Trump, etc. - she's presumably better positioned to know the best way to advance progressive goals than you or I, right?

Next question: is there any endorsement or set of facts that could change your view that (to summarize) Clinton is essentially the devil? What if Sanders endorsed her?

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:32 pm

El Guapo wrote:Do you think that Warren more or less shares your political values?
Actually, No. I'm generally conservative unto libertarian with outcroppings of recognition of the need progressive legislation in the world we live in today, primarily because as a people and as a nation we got stupid extreme and corrupt by our desire to have everything and pay for nothing and we're consequently out of synch in nearly every aspect of our political lives. But to date, I think Warren has been honest and working earnestly for the good people of the United States of America and the positions she has held have been an excellent fit for where we do share political values.

I don't know how that fits your sophistry.
The answer to that question shouldn't be all that different post endorsement than pre-endorsement - her track record and the things that she has advocated are all the same.
Her track record suggests, she would not endorse Clinton because her track record is toward dismantling the concentration of the power of the mulitnationals. That's what has the Berner's all aflame.
If the answer to that is yes, and this is about tactics - i.e the best way to advance progressive goals, defeat Trump, etc. - she's presumably better positioned to know the best way to advance progressive goals than you or I, right?
1) I am not a progressive, even when I align with their causes.
2) Just because she is a progressive with power does not mean she knows and will do what is best for the progressives. Even when she has insider information that she's not sharing.

I can see her agenda right now is to defeat Trump at any cost. I don't share that agenda. It's not a deal breaker. She's still a democrat. I get that. It hurts her IMO, but it's not a deal breaker. Taking a VP position with someone she has constantly been opposed to in legislative philosophy and action? Well, now you have to prove to me that it's for the best. I trust her enough to not dismiss her outright. When it comes to Clinton's political clout, that's saying a whole hell of a lot.

Edit:
El Guapo wrote: Next question: is there any endorsement or set of facts that could change your view that (to summarize) Clinton is essentially the devil? What if Sanders endorsed her?
It is improbable that my view that Clinton "is essentially the devil" will change. Sanders will eventually endorse Clinton and that will not change my opinion. Sanders isn't my guy. Sanders was the best guy in a bad field. And by best I mean only acceptable. It was between him and Kasich and Sanders seemed more genuine and some of his pet causes like infrastructure rebuild are at the top of my pet causes and he seemed mostly likely to downward trend our global military presence and enforcement.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by gbasden » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:14 pm

LordMortis wrote:I can see her agenda right now is to defeat Trump at any cost. I don't share that agenda.
I think this is where you and a lot of people diverge in opinion. There are a lot of people both Democrat and Republican that believe that Trump is a historically abysmal candidate. I don't hold it against her at all that she would work towards getting Clinton elected if the other alternative is seeing Trump as President. I'd personally be terribly disappointed in her if she didn't.

Now, if the Republicans had nominated somebody even moderately sane like Rubio or Bush, it would be different for me. But they didn't, and that changes everything.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:10 pm

So apparently, Sanders gave a speech in which he did not endorse Clinton, did not concede and is taking this thing all the way to the convention.

I kinda hope the Bernie-or-Busters continue to be as stubborn as they have been and that Clinton wins by a big margin without them.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Little Raven » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:41 pm

He didn't bend the knee, but he's clearly trying to put a graceful break to his campaign. Expect him to pivot to attacking Trump while trying to keep his movement alive.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:54 pm

He spent as much time, if not more so, attacking the Democratic party as he did attacking Trump. He's not going out gracefully. And on the flip side, his leverage has fallen in the last couple of weeks, between his recent losses, Clinton's strong week and Trumps poll numbers dropping.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Max Peck » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:19 pm

I'd invoke Zombie Adlai Stevenson as an object lesson for Bernie on how much influence rivals get when they refuse to endorse the actual nominee, but it turns out that you don't even get a zombie meme, let alone a non-token role.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:20 pm

His speeches lately have been a weird sort of political rorschach, where some parts point towards winding things down and making up with Clinton (e.g., working together with Secretary Clinton to defeat Trump) and other parts point the other way (not formally conceding, attacking the democratic party generally). In any event, he seems to have pretty much stopped attacking Clinton specifically, and his campaign manager (Jeff Weaver) said earlier this evening that they're not lobbying superdelegates.

So the current state of things is weird and not terribly satisfactory from a variety of perspectives, but i'm less inclined to be worried about Sanders not formally endorsing Clinton as I was a few weeks ago. As it is this speech doesn't seem to be getting a ton of press, and Sanders is going to find it tougher and tougher to get media attention.

My main real worry about Sanders at this point is Nevada repeating itself on an epic scale at the convention. That's the main possible looming disaster.

Also, Clinton's people need to be writing love letters to Warren daily to get her to accept the VP slot.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Max Peck » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:26 pm

El Guapo wrote:Also, Clinton's people need to be writing love letters to Warren daily to get her to accept the VP slot.
What makes you think they aren't?
Hillary Clinton is considering U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren for her running mate for the Democratic presidential ticket, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday, citing several people familiar with the process. Warren, a leading progressive voice among Democrats, is among those Democratic presidential candidate Clinton is vetting for the vice presidential position, the newspaper reported. Clinton's rival Bernie Sanders is not, it added. Sources told Reuters earlier this month that Warren, who represents Massachusetts, is considering the potential role. Representatives for Clinton, Sanders and Warren did not immediately reply to requests for comment on the report.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:32 pm

El Guapo wrote:His speeches lately have been a weird sort of political rorschach, where some parts point towards winding things down and making up with Clinton (e.g., working together with Secretary Clinton to defeat Trump) and other parts point the other way (not formally conceding, attacking the democratic party generally).
His campaign's seemed that way for a while (since the loss of NY?) with different spokespeople saying conflicting things on different days as to whether he's going to wind things down or, uh, wind things up.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by El Guapo » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:40 pm

Max Peck wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Also, Clinton's people need to be writing love letters to Warren daily to get her to accept the VP slot.
What makes you think they aren't?
Hillary Clinton is considering U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren for her running mate for the Democratic presidential ticket, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday, citing several people familiar with the process. Warren, a leading progressive voice among Democrats, is among those Democratic presidential candidate Clinton is vetting for the vice presidential position, the newspaper reported. Clinton's rival Bernie Sanders is not, it added. Sources told Reuters earlier this month that Warren, who represents Massachusetts, is considering the potential role. Representatives for Clinton, Sanders and Warren did not immediately reply to requests for comment on the report.
Oh, I don't doubt that they are. I'm just saying that they can't be doing too much on that - mainly I'm saying that there's a huge gap between Warren's value and any other plausible VP pick.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Max Peck » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:50 pm

The coverage I'm seeing indicates that the Clinton campaign's thinking is moving in that direction. From what I'm reading, it sounds like initially they were expecting to get the most impact from a Hispanic VP, someone like Julian Castro, but since Trump is doing all the heavy lifting for the Dems on the minorities front, they may now see the progressives that Warren could engage as being the best option. I really don't think it is a matter of whether Clinton would offer it to Warren so much as it is whether Warren would accept. And hence, the pressing need for those "love letters" as you said, I suppose. :)
Time and tide melt the snowman.

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-- The Doctor

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:53 pm

El Guapo wrote: Oh, I don't doubt that they are. I'm just saying that they can't be doing too much on that - mainly I'm saying that there's a huge gap between Warren's value and any other plausible VP pick.
*shrug* While I think Warren would be a fine VP, I'd rather someone younger (preferably with some good executive experience). The leadership of the Democratic party is aging (apart from Obama, they're pretty much well into their 60s and 70s), and would do well to have more younger leaders.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:36 am

Some sort of rising star?

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:54 am

Isgrimnur wrote:Some sort of rising star?
Well, more importantly that they display competency and skill than that they're today's politician of the month, but sure.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:55 pm

A couple of things to consider about Warren:

1. Some of the Bernie-or-Busters are loudly attacking Warren for endorsing Clinton. Which makes me think that they wouldn't be drawn in with a Warren VP candidacy.

2. Warren's [url=http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pol ... ble-rating]favorability ratings aren't that great (25 favorable/27 unfavorable). Those numbers will get better as she gains visibility, but I don't think she's some sort of silver bullet to winning the election.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:10 pm

Democrats unite on expanding Social Security
The Democrats’ new consensus was driven by the populist election-year politics of Senator Bernie Sanders and by a realization that many workers have neither traditional pensions nor any significant retirement savings.
That's a 180 from Obama's ill-fated "bipartisan compromising" days. Even if the Sandernistas get nothing else, that alone is huge.

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