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The Confederate Flag Thread

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:20 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Rip wrote:No wonder no one is interested in being a cop anymore.
It's a dangerous job with shitty pay and it no longer commands the respect it used to.

We need to pay cops more, restore the prestige, and restore their ties to community.
One need only look to Baltimore to see what a great job we are off to.

Is this one of those you have to go backwards to go forwards things?

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by LordMortis » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:36 pm

Rip wrote:
LordMortis wrote:
Rip wrote:No wonder no one is interested in being a cop anymore.
It's a dangerous job with shitty pay and it no longer commands the respect it used to.

We need to pay cops more, restore the prestige, and restore their ties to community.
One need only look to Baltimore to see what a great job we are off to.

Is this one of those you have to go backwards to go forwards things?
I don't think so, but you have to commit to paying your police. I don't have time to find a history but check out the case of Camden, New Jersey, where they made a commitment to turn their police force into community members and it worked, but then they couldn't pay their much improved community unit trained in involvement and de-escalation, and to these wonderful highly regarded and highly trained young officer eventually left for higher pay.

We need to pay and maintain and respect our teachers and police. We need to value our communities. They can contribute to the fall of our communities or they can be the backbone.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Holman » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:43 pm

Rip wrote:I live in the south and I can say I have never met a cop that would ignore someone firing a weapon in a crowd, no matter their skin color.

No wonder no one is interested in being a cop anymore.
How do you feel about Trump pardoning the least color-blind cop in America?
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:17 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Rip wrote:
LordMortis wrote:
Rip wrote:No wonder no one is interested in being a cop anymore.
It's a dangerous job with shitty pay and it no longer commands the respect it used to.

We need to pay cops more, restore the prestige, and restore their ties to community.
One need only look to Baltimore to see what a great job we are off to.

Is this one of those you have to go backwards to go forwards things?
I don't think so, but you have to commit to paying your police. I don't have time to find a history but check out the case of Camden, New Jersey, where they made a commitment to turn their police force into community members and it worked, but then they couldn't pay their much improved community unit trained in involvement and de-escalation, and to these wonderful highly regarded and highly trained young officer eventually left for higher pay.

We need to pay and maintain and respect our teachers and police. We need to value our communities. They can contribute to the fall of our communities or they can be the backbone.
Yea, sure that is what is happening in Baltimore, they aren't paying the police enough.

:roll:

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:24 pm

Holman wrote:
Rip wrote:I live in the south and I can say I have never met a cop that would ignore someone firing a weapon in a crowd, no matter their skin color.

No wonder no one is interested in being a cop anymore.
How do you feel about Trump pardoning the least color-blind cop in America?
I don't feel anything about it.

Presidents(and Governors) pardon people. Sometimes I agree with it sometimes I don't.

Heck one obviously pardoned someone because of donations.

Not the sort of thing I waste a lot of time worrying about.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Pyperkub » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:26 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Rip wrote:
LordMortis wrote:
Rip wrote:No wonder no one is interested in being a cop anymore.
It's a dangerous job with shitty pay and it no longer commands the respect it used to.

We need to pay cops more, restore the prestige, and restore their ties to community.
One need only look to Baltimore to see what a great job we are off to.

Is this one of those you have to go backwards to go forwards things?
I don't think so, but you have to commit to paying your police. I don't have time to find a history but check out the case of Camden, New Jersey, where they made a commitment to turn their police force into community members and it worked, but then they couldn't pay their much improved community unit trained in involvement and de-escalation, and to these wonderful highly regarded and highly trained young officer eventually left for higher pay.

We need to pay and maintain and respect our teachers and police. We need to value our communities. They can contribute to the fall of our communities or they can be the backbone.
Or they can militarize them (which appears to be the current GOP position, for teachers too).
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Holman » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:49 pm

Rip wrote:
Holman wrote:
How do you feel about Trump pardoning the least color-blind cop in America?
Not the sort of thing I waste a lot of time worrying about.
Duly noted.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:52 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Rip wrote:Perhaps you guys missed it.
The Virginia State Police confirmed Saturday that their officers were nearby, but said they were unaware of the incident.

"From where they were standing, none was witness to the incident," Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller told CNN in an email. "Nor did they hear the single shot being fired because it was muffled by the loud volume of the crowd yelling and chanting, drums and music."
They were 10 feet away. It was at least a 9mm. If they were "unaware" is wasn't an accident.
From what I saw, the police were a lot farther (further?) than 10 feet. They were effectively around the corner. a lot of the background noise is louder than the single gun shot and I can easily see them not knowing. Heck... There is practically no real reaction from the crowd. Typically in a gun shot situation people would scatter.. I bet a lot of people didn't even know what happened.
I suspect that he will plead self defense of others since it looks like he shot at the guy holding the "flamethrower" that was trying to light some people up coming down the stairs.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:39 am

Punisher wrote: I suspect that he will plead self defense of others since it looks like he shot at the guy holding the "flamethrower" that was trying to light some people up coming down the stairs.
He can plead it, but the fact that he walked away from the threat, then turned around and came back to it would probably make it a waste of his time.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Holman » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:53 am

FWIW, aerosol flamer guy was trying to light flags, not people. (There are other pics of him.)

Not cool, but also not attempted murder.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Paingod » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:20 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Rip wrote:No wonder no one is interested in being a cop anymore.
Most cops I know are burned out and depressed. It's a shitty job a lot of the time.
Don't forget, too - with all the anti-bully training we're seeing in schools, there will be fewer people even interested in being cops to begin with.

I've always felt that teachers and police should be paid top-tier salaries, to the point where we'd be picking out only the best, brightest, and most qualified and trained candidates. Instead we're asking teachers to buy all of their own supplies and simply nowhere near enough to get the high quality, highly educated, highly motivated, highly sensitive, exceptional people we're expecting cops to be now; the average salary of a cop in Maine is $43,270, and a teacher makes $44,731.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:11 pm

Rip wrote:Or maybe justice is just not as swift as we would like?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/27/us/man-ar ... index.html
A man who is suspected of firing a gun at counterprotesters during the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, earlier this month has been arrested, police said Saturday.

Richard Wilson Preston, 52, was arrested following the release of a video, filmed by the ACLU of Virginia, that allegedly shows him in a verbal altercation on August 12 with counterprotestors near the Southwest corner of Emancipation Park. In the video, counterprotesters appear to throw objects at right-wing marchers.
With his pistol out and pointed at the crowd, he walks toward them before pausing, taking a step back, and racking the slide to load a bullet in his weapon's chamber. The man aims again, seemingly lower, and quickly fires a shot, before turning around, holstering his weapon, and rejoining the march.
As the camera pans to follow the man, police officers in high-visibility vests -- including Virginia State Police troopers in their distinctive hats -- can be seen manning barricades some 50 feet away. They appear not to react to the shot.
Aside from identifying the shooter in the video as Preston, Charlottesville police spokesman Lt. Thomas McKean declined to comment.
The Virginia State Police confirmed Saturday that their officers were nearby, but said they were unaware of the incident.
"From where they were standing, none was witness to the incident," Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller told CNN in an email. "Nor did they hear the single shot being fired because it was muffled by the loud volume of the crowd yelling and chanting, drums and music."
I'm not a cop, and I wasn't there, but I hear gunshots on a regular basis. And fifty feet is tiny. Maybe people were popping off similar things but gunshots are distinct and LOUD. I find that statement ...... suspect. One might even say reasonable cause to suspend a person's right to due process in order to search them without a warrant and hold them until you can call dogs and find the residue of some shit you weren't looking for in the first place.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:08 am

Blackhawk wrote:
Punisher wrote: I suspect that he will plead self defense of others since it looks like he shot at the guy holding the "flamethrower" that was trying to light some people up coming down the stairs.
He can plead it, but the fact that he walked away from the threat, then turned around and came back to it would probably make it a waste of his time.
I don't think waking away would matter if he says he went back to defend others that were being attacked by flamethrower guy... that's why I said defense of others.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:09 am

Holman wrote:FWIW, aerosol flamer guy was trying to light flags, not people. (There are other pics of him.)

Not cool, but also not attempted murder.
Maybe it's the angle, but it looks like he is attacking the people on the stairs.. If you are saying that he was trying to burn flags that people were holding, then my original opinion still stands... If a lit flag causes someone to get burned, I don't think "I was aiming for the flag" will fly..
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:18 am

Punisher wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:
Punisher wrote: I suspect that he will plead self defense of others since it looks like he shot at the guy holding the "flamethrower" that was trying to light some people up coming down the stairs.
He can plead it, but the fact that he walked away from the threat, then turned around and came back to it would probably make it a waste of his time.
I don't think waking away would matter if he says he went back to defend others that were being attacked by flamethrower guy... that's why I said defense of others.
That's not a very good rationalization and probably not the best defense under the law. Not sure of the local laws but legally carrying does not confer the right or duty to act as a law enforcement officer. Especially when surrounded by actual law enforcement officers watching the same thing you are.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:47 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Punisher wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:
Punisher wrote: I suspect that he will plead self defense of others since it looks like he shot at the guy holding the "flamethrower" that was trying to light some people up coming down the stairs.
He can plead it, but the fact that he walked away from the threat, then turned around and came back to it would probably make it a waste of his time.
I don't think waking away would matter if he says he went back to defend others that were being attacked by flamethrower guy... that's why I said defense of others.
That's not a very good rationalization and probably not the best defense under the law. Not sure of the local laws but legally carrying does not confer the right or duty to act as a law enforcement officer. Especially when surrounded by actual law enforcement officers watching the same thing you are.
It's not acting as law enforcement. It's acting in the protection of others as a form of self defense. If I see someone being attacked I don't have to look the other way.
As for Law enforcement, I would argue that they could not see that area.. At least the ones in the video would be completely out of line of sight.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:37 pm

Geezus, what's the point of having cops there if a guy can pull a gun, point it into the crowd, fire it at their feet and the cops didn't notice? That's the argument they went with?

Give me a break.

"we didn't notice so it's not our fault" is really the spin they want to put on this?

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:44 pm

GreenGoo wrote:Geezus, what's the point of having cops there if a guy can pull a gun, point it into the crowd, fire it at their feet and the cops didn't notice? That's the argument they went with?

Give me a break.

"we didn't notice so it's not our fault" is really the spin they want to put on this?
It looked like the cops were there to block access to a side street or something.. not even real crowd control, just blocking off that part. However, we only have one small angle. I guess there could have been a cop standing 2 feet behind the cameraman...

and yes. We didn't notice does sound reasonable to me if true. They are not omniscient. They appear to be about 50 feet away, around a corner and out of line of sight. Not sure how you expect them to know... and I still believe it is plausible that they did not hear the gun shot.even in the video right next to the shooter the background noise appears to muffle the shot.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:53 pm

From what I've heard there were people shouting, drums being beaten, and all sorts of noise. There were also quite a few human bodies around where the gun was fired. It is perfectly reasonable that the shot might get muffled enough to be mistaken for other loud noise.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:20 am

Blackhawk wrote:From what I've heard there were people shouting, drums being beaten, and all sorts of noise. There were also quite a few human bodies around where the gun was fired. It is perfectly reasonable that the shot might get muffled enough to be mistaken for other loud noise.
So they didn't see or hear it.

Could they smell it?

I mean, why are they there if they can't even detect a gun being fired.

Was it a pop gun? There's a reason people where ear protection at the range.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:24 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:From what I've heard there were people shouting, drums being beaten, and all sorts of noise. There were also quite a few human bodies around where the gun was fired. It is perfectly reasonable that the shot might get muffled enough to be mistaken for other loud noise.
So they didn't see or hear it.

Could they smell it?

I mean, why are they there if they can't even detect a gun being fired.

Was it a pop gun? There's a reason people where ear protection at the range.
A couple years ago there was a shooting less than half a block from me at Mardi Gras. Didn't hear a thing......

A 9MM handgun makes about the same noise level as a balloon popping.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:52 am

Punisher wrote:
It's not acting as law enforcement. It's acting in the protection of others as a form of self defense. If I see someone being attacked I don't have to look the other way.
Protection of others is not self defense. It is not your duty or reaponsibility. It you're going to do that as an armed citizen you should be damned sure. I'd only risk the criminal and civil cases for my own life or family.

In that particular situation, on a crowded area with plenty of police on hand, shooting at a guy with a lighter and an aresol can is a bad shoot. Let's say he did get that first shot off and hit the guy with the lighter. He's facing a criminal case and will probably be sued in civil court. That's a high price to pay for "protecting" someone who, it turns it, didn't need protection.

Anyone who is eager to shoot in self defense probably isn't trained in self defense.

Rip wrote: A 9MM handgun makes about the same noise level as a balloon popping.
That's not true at all. A 9mm is around 160 db. A balloon is around 125. The scale is logarithmic so a 9mm is several times louder.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:59 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Punisher wrote:
It's not acting as law enforcement. It's acting in the protection of others as a form of self defense. If I see someone being attacked I don't have to look the other way.
Protection of others is not self defense. It is not your duty or reaponsibility. It you're going to do that as an armed citizen you should be damned sure. I'd only risk the criminal and civil cases for my own life or family.

In that particular situation, on a crowded area with plenty of police on hand, shooting at a guy with a lighter and an aresol can is a bad shoot. Let's say he did get that first shot off and hit the guy with the lighter. He's facing a criminal case and will probably be sued in civil court. That's a high price to pay for "protecting" someone who, it turns it, didn't need protection.

Anyone who is eager to shoot in self defense probably isn't trained in self defense.

Rip wrote: A 9MM handgun makes about the same noise level as a balloon popping.
That's not true at all. A 9mm is around 160 db. A balloon is around 125. The scale is logarithmic so a 9mm is several times louder.
I guess it depends on the balloon.

http://chchearing.org/noise/common-envi ... se-levels/

40 quiet residential area
70 freeway traffic
85 heavy traffic, noisy restaurant
90 truck, shouted conversation
95 – 110 motorcycle
100 snowmobile
100 school dance, boom box
110 disco
110 busy video arcade
110 symphony concert
110 car horn
110 -120 rock concert
112 personal cassette player on high
117 football game (stadium)
120 band concert
125 auto stereo (factory installed)
130 stock car races
143 bicycle horn
150 firecracker
156 capgun
157 balloon pop
162 fireworks (at 3 feet)
163 rifle
166 handgun
170 shotgun

At 50 Metres distance that would drop down to almost 100 without taking into account any objects blocking the LOS to the sound.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:10 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:From what I've heard there were people shouting, drums being beaten, and all sorts of noise. There were also quite a few human bodies around where the gun was fired. It is perfectly reasonable that the shot might get muffled enough to be mistaken for other loud noise.
So they didn't see or hear it.
Of course they heard it. They heard it muffled by a wall of human flesh and buried in a constant barrage of other loud sounds that had likely been going on for an extended time while probably wearing helmets. They heard it. What they can absolutely be forgiven for is not recognizing it as a gunshot when it was distorted and drowned out.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:39 pm

Rip wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Punisher wrote:
It's not acting as law enforcement. It's acting in the protection of others as a form of self defense. If I see someone being attacked I don't have to look the other way.
Protection of others is not self defense. It is not your duty or reaponsibility. It you're going to do that as an armed citizen you should be damned sure. I'd only risk the criminal and civil cases for my own life or family.

In that particular situation, on a crowded area with plenty of police on hand, shooting at a guy with a lighter and an aresol can is a bad shoot. Let's say he did get that first shot off and hit the guy with the lighter. He's facing a criminal case and will probably be sued in civil court. That's a high price to pay for "protecting" someone who, it turns it, didn't need protection.

Anyone who is eager to shoot in self defense probably isn't trained in self defense.

Rip wrote: A 9MM handgun makes about the same noise level as a balloon popping.
That's not true at all. A 9mm is around 160 db. A balloon is around 125. The scale is logarithmic so a 9mm is several times louder.
I guess it depends on the balloon.

http://chchearing.org/noise/common-envi ... se-levels/

40 quiet residential area
70 freeway traffic
85 heavy traffic, noisy restaurant
90 truck, shouted conversation
95 – 110 motorcycle
100 snowmobile
100 school dance, boom box
110 disco
110 busy video arcade
110 symphony concert
110 car horn
110 -120 rock concert
112 personal cassette player on high
117 football game (stadium)
120 band concert
125 auto stereo (factory installed)
130 stock car races
143 bicycle horn
150 firecracker
156 capgun
157 balloon pop
162 fireworks (at 3 feet)
163 rifle
166 handgun
170 shotgun

At 50 Metres distance that would drop down to almost 100 without taking into account any objects blocking the LOS to the sound.
So that chart indicates that a "handgun" is 8 times louder than a "balloon pop".

But who cares? A 9mm is loud. That's the point.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:21 pm

My point is that if the cops are there for a reason, stopping a guy from point a gun into a crowd and firing has got to be one of the top 3.

That's a major fail in my book.

It's not like he was trying to hide it.

It's frustrating when an unarmed man lying on his stomach with his hands in the air surrounded by cops gets shot, but another can pull out a firearm in a cop heavy environment and discharge it with impunity.

I mean seriously, why are the cops there? Prevent property damage?

I get it, they missed it.

That's a fuck up in my opinion, not "understandable".

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:39 pm

Then you'd have to say the 'fuck up' would be in where they were deployed, because it looked to me like they didn't have any direct line of sight to the gun itself. They can't see through people, and there is no way they can deploy in such a way as to have line-of-sight into every foot of ground.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:17 pm

This is one of those situations where your boss is not going to listen to reasons (good or not) why it happened and it was out of your control, and sympathize. Just do better. Period. People that you were explicitly assigned to keep an eye on should not be able to pull a firearm, pull the trigger and walk away unnoticed.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:35 pm

GreenGoo wrote:This is one of those situations where your boss is not going to listen to reasons (good or not) why it happened and it was out of your control, and sympathize. Just do better. Period. People that you were explicitly assigned to keep an eye on should not be able to pull a firearm, pull the trigger and walk away unnoticed.
Well, was that what they were there for? Maybe they were literally there to keep the crowd from going down that street... as I said before they are not omniscient (or is in omnipotent) and as Blackhawk said, there is no way they can cover every foot of ground.

and as for the boss thing.. generally in situations like this they are told where to post up by a supervisor, so if that's where they were told to go, they shouldn't have a problem..
I stand by my statements... loud noises, no line of sight, and no crowd reaction for them to witness and nobody from the crowd saying anything or even really reacting, I can easily give them a pass to missing this..
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:47 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Punisher wrote:
It's not acting as law enforcement. It's acting in the protection of others as a form of self defense. If I see someone being attacked I don't have to look the other way.
Protection of others is not self defense. It is not your duty or reaponsibility. It you're going to do that as an armed citizen you should be damned sure. I'd only risk the criminal and civil cases for my own life or family.

In that particular situation, on a crowded area with plenty of police on hand, shooting at a guy with a lighter and an aresol can is a bad shoot. Let's say he did get that first shot off and hit the guy with the lighter. He's facing a criminal case and will probably be sued in civil court. That's a high price to pay for "protecting" someone who, it turns it, didn't need protection.

Anyone who is eager to shoot in self defense probably isn't trained in self defense.
Actually, defense of others is usually bundled in with self defense.
You don't need to have a duty or responsibility in order to protect or help others.. having a duty or responsibility to protect others means you have to do so. not having the duty or responsibility does not mean you can't do you.
Let's say he didn't do this at all and the video just shows the fire guy lighting someone on fire... Some people may argue that someone should have stopped him.
I'm not saying this is what happened, that will be for the courts to decide, just saying that I could see this as plausible.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:14 am

Punisher wrote:
Actually, defense of others is usually bundled in with self defense.
You don't need to have a duty or responsibility in order to protect or help others.. having a duty or responsibility to protect others means you have to do so. not having the duty or responsibility does not mean you can't do you.
Personally, seeing someone attacking someone else and having the capability to intervene, and absent other factors, not acting would be something I'd have trouble living with. It may not be a legal duty, but I would consider it a moral obligation. And in the places I've personally studied self-defense, coming to the aid of another in this kind of situation isn't required, but is included.

That said, firing warning shots is a different issue entirely. If you had time for warning shots, there was no immediate threat requiring a firearm. Generally, you can only employ lethal means of defense (and firing a firearm at all counts) if there is zero other option. It is shoot or die. If you can fire a warning shot, it was not shoot or die.

This does, of course, vary by location.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:55 am

To be clear, I'm not talking about this situation. I don't think self defense was the intent here.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:22 am

Warning shots are for amateurs.

The guy with the gun obviously wasn't very well trained and should get some training if he really seeks to protect himself or others.


If he was charged while I support his right to defend himself or others I wouldn't be opposed to him being charged for doing so in an unsafe and reckless manner.

With rights come responsibilities.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:13 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:So that chart indicates that a "handgun" is 8 times louder than a "balloon pop".

But who cares? A 9mm is loud. That's the point.
I will agree that a 9mm is loud, but your interpretation of the decibel scale is wrong. A difference of 8 decibels means that the sound intensity is about 8 times higher. That's not the same as volume.

It's less than twice as loud.

Not that this is an important side bar. :)
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:58 am

Blackhawk wrote:To be clear, I'm not talking about this situation. I don't think self defense was the intent here.
I don't either, I was just saying he could use it as a plausible argument.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:03 am

Rip wrote:Warning shots are for amateurs.

The guy with the gun obviously wasn't very well trained and should get some training if he really seeks to protect himself or others.


If he was charged while I support his right to defend himself or others I wouldn't be opposed to him being charged for doing so in an unsafe and reckless manner.

With rights come responsibilities.
I can't tell if it was intended as a warning shot or not.
I would say he might require training though. If you are going to carry, you should be carrying with one in the pipe. those seconds pulling the slide could be your last. Unless it is not legal in your area.
Other than the danger of a loose round, I never understood why warning shots were not allowed. I always felt that shooting a warning round would add emphasis to your intent to defend yourself with deadly force. It may cause the other person to back down.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by msteelers » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:16 am

Kids at a high school near me organized a confederate flag day. The school's stance is that it is ok to express yourself by wearing the flag, but it's not ok for girls to wear tank tops because it's too distracting.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:57 am

Punisher wrote:
Rip wrote:Warning shots are for amateurs.

The guy with the gun obviously wasn't very well trained and should get some training if he really seeks to protect himself or others.


If he was charged while I support his right to defend himself or others I wouldn't be opposed to him being charged for doing so in an unsafe and reckless manner.

With rights come responsibilities.
I can't tell if it was intended as a warning shot or not.
I would say he might require training though. If you are going to carry, you should be carrying with one in the pipe. those seconds pulling the slide could be your last. Unless it is not legal in your area.
Other than the danger of a loose round, I never understood why warning shots were not allowed. I always felt that shooting a warning round would add emphasis to your intent to defend yourself with deadly force. It may cause the other person to back down.
It isn't that they aren't allowed, it is that they will get you killed. That you intend to defend yourself doesn't need added emphasis.

Here are 10 solid reasons not to fire a warning shot.

1. What goes up, must come down. The stereotyped warning shot is fired skyward. Shooting live ammunition into the sky is a practice normally associated with Third World countries where respect for human life is not as great as in the United States. There are many cases on record where such bullets “fell from the sky” and killed innocent people. In one New England case, a man carelessly fired a warning shot upward in the state’s largest city; the bullet struck and killed an innocent bystander who was on the upper porch of a tenement building.

2. To fire the warning shot safely, the shooter would have to aim it into something that could safely absorb the projectile. This would force the shooter to take his eyes off of the potentially dangerous criminal opponent he was trying to intimidate – always a poor idea tactically.

3. What appears to be a safe place to plant the warning bullet, may not be. I know a police officer who, trying to break up a riot, fired a warning shot from his 12 gauge shotgun downward from the upper floor walkway of a hotel into what appeared in the dark to be a soft patch of earth. It was, instead, darkened pavement. Double-ought buckshot pellets caromed off the hard surface, one striking a young woman in the eye.

4. Suppose the person who caused you to fire the warning shot runs around a corner. Another gunshot rings out; someone else has shot the man, in a moment when deadly force was not warranted. The bullet goes through and through, fatally, and is not recovered. The man who wrongfully shot him claims that he fired the warning shot, and it was your bullet that caused the wrongful death. It’s your word against his…unless you can say, “Officer, you’ll find the bullet from MY gun in the friendly oak tree right over there.” But it would have been better in these circumstances if you had not fired at all.

5. Warning shots can lead to misunderstandings with deadly unintended consequences. Years ago in the Great Lakes area, two police officers were searching opposite ends of a commercial greenhouse where a burglar alarm had just gone off. One confronted the burglar, who ran. The officer raised his arm skyward for the traditional silver screen warning shot. As is often the case, the blast just made the suspect run faster. On the other end of the building, the brother officer heard the shot and shouted to his partner, asking if he was all right. But the powerful handgun had gone off so close to the first officer’s unprotected ear that his ears were ringing, and he didn’t hear the shout. The second officer then saw the suspect running. Concluding that the man must have killed the partner who didn’t answer, that second officer shot and killed a man who was guilty only of burglary and running from the police.

6. A single gunshot sounds to earwitnesses (and, depending on the circumstances, even eyewitnesses) as if you tried to kill a man you were only trying to warn. Did you yell the standard movie line, “Stop or I’ll shoot”? It could sound to an earwitness as if you threatened to kill a man for not obeying you, and then tried to do exactly that. Don’t make threats you don’t have a right to carry out, and as will be noted elsewhere in this book, the confluence of circumstances that warrants the shooting of a fleeing felon is extremely rare. (Remember that there are usually more earwitnesses than eyewitnesses; sound generally travels farther than line of sight, especially in the dark. Remember the infamous case of Kitty Genovese, who was murdered as 38 New York witnesses supposedly watched and did nothing. A study of the incident shows that only two of those witnesses actually saw the knife go into her body. However, more than 38 apparently heard her scream, “He stabbed me!”)

7. Even if there are no witnesses and the man claims you shot at him and missed, evidence will show that you did fire your gun. If he claims you attempted to murder him, it’s his word against yours.

8. Murphy’s law is immutable: if your weapon is going to jam, expect it to jam on the warning shot, and leave you helpless when the opponent comes up on you with his gun.

9. The firing of a gun even in the “general direction” of another person is an act of deadly force. If deadly force was warranted, well, “warning shot, hell!” You would have shot directly at him. The warning shot can tell judge and jury that the very fact that you didn’t aim the shot at him is a tacit admission that even by your own lights, you knew deadly force was not justified at the time you fired the shot.

10. If the man turns on you in the next moment and you do have to shoot him or die, you’ve wasted precious ammunition. With the still-popular five-shot revolver, you’ve just thrown away 20% of your potentially life-saving firepower. In one case in the Philippines, a man went berserk in a crowded open-air market and began stabbing and slashing people with a knife in each hand. In a nearby home, an off-duty Filipino police officer heard the screams, grabbed his six-shot service revolver (with no spare ammunition), and ran to the scene. When he confronted the madman, the latter turned on him. The officer fired three warning shots into the air, sending half of all he had to protect himself and the public into the stratosphere. He turned and ran, trying to shoot over his shoulder, and missed with his last three shots. He tripped and fell, and the pursuing knife-wielder literally ripped him apart. Responding officers shot and killed the madman, but their off-duty brother was already dead by then.

https://gundigest.com/article/self-defe ... -good-idea

A good article discussing the issue.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/08/27/ccw-w ... ing-shots/

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Max Peck » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:24 am

Rip wrote:8. Murphy’s law is immutable: if your weapon is going to jam, expect it to jam on the warning shot, and leave you helpless when the opponent comes up on you with his gun.
Bullshit. If the weapon jams on the first round, it doesn't matter what the target was. Probability has no sense of irony.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:45 am

Max Peck wrote:
Rip wrote:8. Murphy’s law is immutable: if your weapon is going to jam, expect it to jam on the warning shot, and leave you helpless when the opponent comes up on you with his gun.
Bullshit. If the weapon jams on the first round, it doesn't matter what the target was. Probability has no sense of irony.
True but if you don't fire a warning shot you still have the chance/hope of avoiding the need to fire at all. If it jams on a warning shot any real danger will seize the opportunity.

Either way, expert opinion is overwhelming in opposing warning shots.

That said there is some recent push the other direction recently but I personally oppose it.

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/28/520826667 ... a-comeback

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