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The Confederate Flag Thread

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:05 pm

I would argue that a properly trained shooter would rather have it jam on a warning shot than on a life-or-death shot. A trained shooter is trained in jams and misfires. Besides, while the most likely jam on a pistol is, in fact, likely to be on the first shot, it will occur after the first shot, not as a misfire.

Which is what the real issue with warning shots and lethal self defense claims are: If it isn't life or death, you aren't allowed to use lethal force, and if you had the option to take some other action other than to end to the other person, it wasn't life or death. It is a very similar issue to shooting to wound. Allowing it opens up doors that can be exploited.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:06 pm

Punisher wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Punisher wrote:
It's not acting as law enforcement. It's acting in the protection of others as a form of self defense. If I see someone being attacked I don't have to look the other way.
Protection of others is not self defense. It is not your duty or reaponsibility. It you're going to do that as an armed citizen you should be damned sure. I'd only risk the criminal and civil cases for my own life or family.

In that particular situation, on a crowded area with plenty of police on hand, shooting at a guy with a lighter and an aresol can is a bad shoot. Let's say he did get that first shot off and hit the guy with the lighter. He's facing a criminal case and will probably be sued in civil court. That's a high price to pay for "protecting" someone who, it turns it, didn't need protection.

Anyone who is eager to shoot in self defense probably isn't trained in self defense.
Actually, defense of others is usually bundled in with self defense.
You don't need to have a duty or responsibility in order to protect or help others.. having a duty or responsibility to protect others means you have to do so. not having the duty or responsibility does not mean you can't do you.
Let's say he didn't do this at all and the video just shows the fire guy lighting someone on fire... Some people may argue that someone should have stopped him.
I'm not saying this is what happened, that will be for the courts to decide, just saying that I could see this as plausible.

I'm not sure what you mean that protection others is "bundled" with self defense. Do you mean legally? Conceptually?

I know what duty and responsibility means. And I'm saying a legally a citizen has neither duty or reaponsibility to defend or shoot. I never said they couldn't defend or shoot. But what I am saying is that they had better be damned certain. That is their duty and responsibility.


It might be subtle but it's the difference between some guy who legally acquired a gun and someone who is trained in self defense carry.

The guy in Charlottesville had no reason to shoot, he wasn't carrying hot for defense, and he had problems with his slide, and he finally shot when there was no target. He's the worst kind of carrier. Fortunately he wasn't hot or he probably would have put a round into a bystander.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:58 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: The guy in Charlottesville had no reason to shoot, he wasn't carrying hot for defense, and he had problems with his slide, and he finally shot when there was no target. He's the worst kind of carrier. Fortunately he wasn't hot or he probably would have put a round into a bystander.
With this I absolutely agree. I have a feeling that a copy of the video with cleaned up audio will show up in court, as I could swear I hard the guy say something about 'burning' and 'flag.' If so, it makes it clear he knew the guy wasn't a threat to other people.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:17 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: The guy in Charlottesville had no reason to shoot, he wasn't carrying hot for defense, and he had problems with his slide, and he finally shot when there was no target. He's the worst kind of carrier. Fortunately he wasn't hot or he probably would have put a round into a bystander.
With this I absolutely agree. I have a feeling that a copy of the video with cleaned up audio will show up in court, as I could swear I hard the guy say something about 'burning' and 'flag.' If so, it makes it clear he knew the guy wasn't a threat to other people.
Pretty sure I could easily make the argument that setting flags ablaze that other people are holding is indeed a threat. Anyone that does that should be immediately arrested for reckless endangerment.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Remus West » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:17 am

Rip wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: The guy in Charlottesville had no reason to shoot, he wasn't carrying hot for defense, and he had problems with his slide, and he finally shot when there was no target. He's the worst kind of carrier. Fortunately he wasn't hot or he probably would have put a round into a bystander.
With this I absolutely agree. I have a feeling that a copy of the video with cleaned up audio will show up in court, as I could swear I hard the guy say something about 'burning' and 'flag.' If so, it makes it clear he knew the guy wasn't a threat to other people.
Pretty sure I could easily make the argument that setting flags ablaze that other people are holding is indeed a threat. Anyone that does that should be immediately arrested for reckless endangerment.
Or, you know, shot by the nearest idiot holding a gun because those two things are equivalent and vigilantism is fun when its for your side. :roll:
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Holman » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:26 am

On the question of how dangerous aerosol man was behaving, it's pretty clear in the video that the marchers filing down the stairs past him are not acting threatened. The flame is feet away from anyone. Most people hardly spare him a glance, and no one is speeding up to get away. One guy is actually waving his CSA flag on a stick into the flame as if he thinks he can put it out.

Flame guy's behavior was wrong, but it really doesn't appear to have been deadly. It's very hard to believe the shooter thought his own or anyone else's life was in danger.

Meanwhile, just to add unsurprising flavor to this little episode, the shooter has been arrested and identified as Richard Preston, an Imperial Wizard in the KKK.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Freyland » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:24 am

Holman wrote: Meanwhile, just to add unsurprising flavor to this little episode, the shooter has been arrested and identified as Richard Preston, an Imperial Wizard in the KKK.
Well, there's your motive. He was just jealous that the other guy could cast "fireball" and he couldn't.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:40 am

Personally, bringing aerosol to a protest and lighting it should be an arrestable offense imo.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:46 am

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Skinypupy » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:58 am

You leave Gutterson out of this.
We are are the last of the legion.
The last of the bastion.
We are the best of the bastards.
And slaves to none.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by hepcat » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:35 pm

Freyland wrote:
Holman wrote: Meanwhile, just to add unsurprising flavor to this little episode, the shooter has been arrested and identified as Richard Preston, an Imperial Wizard in the KKK.
Well, there's your motive. He was just jealous that the other guy could cast "fireball" and he couldn't.
okay, you won that. :lol: :lol:

I wish there was audio of the gunman yelling "lightening bolt, lightening bolt" while firing.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:57 pm

Freyland wrote:
Holman wrote: Meanwhile, just to add unsurprising flavor to this little episode, the shooter has been arrested and identified as Richard Preston, an Imperial Wizard in the KKK.
Well, there's your motive. He was just jealous that the other guy could cast "fireball" and he couldn't.
I am pretty sure fireball is a level 1 spell, so he is obviously a horrible wizard...

Also, again to clarify. I never said that his intention was self defense, only that I could see this being an argument in court..possibly successful..
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Punisher » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:00 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Punisher wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Punisher wrote:
It's not acting as law enforcement. It's acting in the protection of others as a form of self defense. If I see someone being attacked I don't have to look the other way.
Protection of others is not self defense. It is not your duty or reaponsibility. It you're going to do that as an armed citizen you should be damned sure. I'd only risk the criminal and civil cases for my own life or family.

In that particular situation, on a crowded area with plenty of police on hand, shooting at a guy with a lighter and an aresol can is a bad shoot. Let's say he did get that first shot off and hit the guy with the lighter. He's facing a criminal case and will probably be sued in civil court. That's a high price to pay for "protecting" someone who, it turns it, didn't need protection.

Anyone who is eager to shoot in self defense probably isn't trained in self defense.
Actually, defense of others is usually bundled in with self defense.
You don't need to have a duty or responsibility in order to protect or help others.. having a duty or responsibility to protect others means you have to do so. not having the duty or responsibility does not mean you can't do you.
Let's say he didn't do this at all and the video just shows the fire guy lighting someone on fire... Some people may argue that someone should have stopped him.
I'm not saying this is what happened, that will be for the courts to decide, just saying that I could see this as plausible.

I'm not sure what you mean that protection others is "bundled" with self defense. Do you mean legally? Conceptually?
I am almost positive that is is both.. IE: It has been successfully used in court.
A big part of this though is the general law regarding self defense in the state it happens.. in some states, you have a legal obligation to run away before defending yourself with lethal force.... in others, not so much..
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:28 pm

The rules are the same when force is used to protect another from danger. Generally, the defendant must have a reasonable belief that the third party is in a position where they have the right of self-defense. For example, a person who unknowingly chances upon two actors practicing a fight would be able to defend their restraint of the one that appeared to be the aggressor. However, in many jurisdictions a person who causes injury in defense of another may be liable to criminal and civil charges if such defence turned out to be unnecessary.

Defense of others is called pikuach nefesh in Jewish law. One must violate most negative commandments of the Torah in order to save someone's life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_self-defense

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:32 pm

Dallas
The Robert E. Lee statue was cleared to come down after a brief court hearing Thursday but city council members did not provide a timeline on when the iconic monument would be removed.

The temporary restraining order granted late Wednesday afternoon to halt the removal of a Robert E. Lee statue in Dallas' Turtle Creek neighborhood has been dissolved.

U.S. District Court Judge Sidney Fitzwater ruled the plaintiff in the case failed to show it would likely succeed if the case were to proceed further, which is required in order to keep a temporary restraining order, or TRO, in place.

Hiram Patterson of Dallas is listed as the plaintiff along with the organization "Sons of Confederate Veterans Inc.,".

In the one-hour long hearing, attorney David Vandenberg of Austin argued his client had his right to due process and denial of free speech infringed upon after the city of Dallas voted 13-1 on Wednesday to remove the Lee statue.

Attorneys for the city of Dallas countered saying anyone opposing the resolution had required 72 hours notice the meeting was occurring and was afforded the opportunity to voice their opinion on the proposal, negating any due process claim.
...

...
Wednesday's vote followed a resolution proposed by three of the four black council members last week, seeking the immediate removal of the Robert E. Lee monument, which doesn't have the same historical protection as other Confederate monuments in the city.
The Cultural Landscape Foundation
Originally named Oak Lawn Park, the seventeen-acre park was first developed in 1903 by the Dallas Consolidated Electric Railway Company in cooperation with developers William H. Lemmon and Oliver P. Bowser. Built as a private amenity for residential development, the wooded area became so popular that the City purchased it in 1909 to serve as the first public park in North Dallas.

The park was renamed Robert E. Lee Park in 1936 after President Franklin Delano Roosevelt dedicated a statue of the General, erected along Turtle Creek Boulevard on the park’s southern edge. A three-quarters scale replica of Arlington Hall, the Custis-Lee’s Mansion in Arlington, Virginia, was constructed in 1939, likely with Works Progress Administration support.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:41 pm

Will they call this the 'Deconstruction Era?'
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:45 pm

Blackhawk wrote:Will they call this the 'Deconstruction Era?'
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:01 pm

Punisher wrote: I am pretty sure fireball is a level 1 spell, so he is obviously a horrible wizard....
Based on first edition rules learned more than 30 years ago, it's a level 3 spell requiring a wizard of level 6. Surviving to level 6 is no small accomplishment.

I'd be jealous too.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:05 pm

Considering that a first level is 50/50 to die in a fight with a housecat, I concur.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by gbasden » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:42 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Punisher wrote: I am pretty sure fireball is a level 1 spell, so he is obviously a horrible wizard....
Based on first edition rules learned more than 30 years ago, it's a level 3 spell requiring a wizard of level 6. Surviving to level 6 is no small accomplishment.

I'd be jealous too.
Technically, 5th level. 1st/3rd/5th is the progression for learning new spell levels. :)

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Holman » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:58 pm

KKK wizards are almost certain to have an INT penalty though.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by gbasden » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:28 pm

Holman wrote:KKK wizards are almost certain to have an INT penalty though.
Bravo. :)

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Unagi » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:08 am

gbasden wrote:
Holman wrote:KKK wizards are almost certain to have an INT penalty though.
Bravo. :)
Agreed.



CHR and WIS too, right?

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:06 am

gbasden wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Punisher wrote: I am pretty sure fireball is a level 1 spell, so he is obviously a horrible wizard....
Based on first edition rules learned more than 30 years ago, it's a level 3 spell requiring a wizard of level 6. Surviving to level 6 is no small accomplishment.

I'd be jealous too.
Technically, 5th level. 1st/3rd/5th is the progression for learning new spell levels. :)
You are almost certainly correct, yet I'm 100% positive you couldn't learn fireball until level 6.

Weird.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by TheMix » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:45 am

I think you are both correct, but I don't remember the specifics.

My memory is that when I started playing, Fireball was indeed a 3rd level spell. And it was learned at level 5. That was Advanced D&D. But I have this vague recollection that in 3 or 3.5, the spells were restructured and wizards didn't learn 3rd level spells until level 6. Maybe it was the addition of cantrips? Or maybe it was just one of the computer games that made you wait until level 6.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by stessier » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:10 am

This is not the direction I was expecting this thread to take.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Freyland » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:14 am

stessier wrote:This is not the direction I was expecting this thread to take.
8-) :wub:
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by El Guapo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:58 am

TheMix wrote:I think you are both correct, but I don't remember the specifics.

My memory is that when I started playing, Fireball was indeed a 3rd level spell. And it was learned at level 5. That was Advanced D&D. But I have this vague recollection that in 3 or 3.5, the spells were restructured and wizards didn't learn 3rd level spells until level 6. Maybe it was the addition of cantrips? Or maybe it was just one of the computer games that made you wait until level 6.
In 2nd edition it was definitely level 5 for fireball (and third level spells generally). I can't speak to 1st edition, though - maybe you needed to be level 6 then.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by El Guapo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:05 am

Freyland wrote:
stessier wrote:This is not the direction I was expecting this thread to take.
8-) :wub:
This is a glimpse of what America's politics could be like.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Freyland » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:18 am

El Guapo wrote:
Freyland wrote:
stessier wrote:This is not the direction I was expecting this thread to take.
8-) :wub:
This is a glimpse of what America's politics could be like.
...discussing spell-casting requirements?
I don't remember where I read this, Cort, maybe it was in the last patch notes, but they said the UAZ really handles the best when... the wheels are actually touching the ground.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by El Guapo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:26 am

Freyland wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Freyland wrote:
stessier wrote:This is not the direction I was expecting this thread to take.
8-) :wub:
This is a glimpse of what America's politics could be like.
...discussing spell-casting requirements?
Would be a tremendous improvement.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Freyland » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:31 am

El Guapo wrote:
Freyland wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Freyland wrote:
stessier wrote:This is not the direction I was expecting this thread to take.
8-) :wub:
This is a glimpse of what America's politics could be like.
...discussing spell-casting requirements?
Would be a tremendous improvement.
Oh. Then I shall resume my self- :wub:
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:33 am

Better than the usual guano that gets tossed around in here.

And for the record, fireball is a 3rd level spell learned at level 5 in the original 1974 D&D pamphlets, the current (5th) edition, and every edition in between (although I can't speak for 4th.)

Now, how 'bout them Nazis?
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by El Guapo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:36 am

Blackhawk wrote:Better than the usual guano that gets tossed around in here.

And for the record, fireball is a 3rd level spell learned at level 5 in the original 1974 D&D pamphlets, the current (5th) edition, and every edition in between (although I can't speak for 4th.)

Now, how 'bout them Nazis?
Ok. I think we just all agreed to tell Canadians that they couldn't use fireball until level 6.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by TheMix » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:38 am

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure it was a computer RPG. I distinctly remember being annoyed that I had to wait until level 6 to get it.
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by LordMortis » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:03 pm

My memory is level 5 but I only have played what we called AD&D aka what would later be referred to as 2nd Ed and I pretty much quit before all of the extra crap came out for 2nd ed. Deities and DemiGods was the last bound book published when I largely left RPGs in the past, especially TSR RPGs.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:07 pm

It's ok guys, I've been wrong before.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Rip » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:55 pm

I thought I was wrong once......

But I was mistaken.

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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by hepcat » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:59 pm

I'm surprised so many people have cast Fireball in this thread and he still hasn't shown up...
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Re: The Confederate Flag Thread

Post by Freyland » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:07 pm

hepcat wrote:I'm surprised so many people have cast Fireball in this thread and he still hasn't shown up...
I'm sure he turned that setting off his Smartphone long ago.

Shizzlesnik the Goblin-Slayer has cast Fireball!
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