European Migrant Crisis

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hepcat
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by hepcat »

Except for...you know...the people who are actually trying to make a difference. Like the journalist in question.

Don't condemn an entire region for the acts of ISIS and other jihadist groups, or for the actions of corrupt governments. Going down that road ends in only one solution. I would like to think we're capable of so much more.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Kraken »

Moliere wrote:The Arab Press Reacts to the European Refugee Crisis
Europe is now home to 11 million Arab immigrants... who have attained rights and have a prospect of receiving citizenship, equality and justice under the law—all the things whose absence drove them to flee their Arab countries of origin..."
Some of the world's most secular nations have welcomed 11 million refugees fleeing religious persecution. Maybe that's how you ultimately defeat Islamic extremism. Even if they attain citizenship, a substantial fraction will eventually want to return to their homelands with their newfangled ideas.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Zarathud »

Think of the refugees as depriving ISIS of future manpower.

If we believe in the universal importance of human freedom, we should at minimum acknowledge that people will flee oppression to places where they can be free.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Moliere »

Zarathud wrote:Think of the refugees as depriving ISIS of future manpower.
How do you find the ISIS agents using this as an opportunity to sneak people into Western countries?
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European Migrant Crisis

Post by Zarathud »

By giving hundreds of thousands the incentive to protect their new homes. The same people who are motivated to get away from ISIS are well placed and qualified to spot infiltrators, if any exist.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by hepcat »

Moliere wrote:
Zarathud wrote:Think of the refugees as depriving ISIS of future manpower.
How do you find the ISIS agents using this as an opportunity to sneak people into Western countries?
That we discuss this in terms of a minute proportion thanks to precedence should be indication enough that there is no epidemic occurring.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by TiLT »

Moliere wrote:
Zarathud wrote:Think of the refugees as depriving ISIS of future manpower.
How do you find the ISIS agents using this as an opportunity to sneak people into Western countries?
How do we know that such a thing even exists? Let's not buy into ISIS propaganda here. They can talk the talk, but nothing indicates that they've got the ability to walk the walk in this case.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Drazzil »

TiLT wrote:
Moliere wrote:
Zarathud wrote:Think of the refugees as depriving ISIS of future manpower.
How do you find the ISIS agents using this as an opportunity to sneak people into Western countries?
How do we know that such a thing even exists? Let's not buy into ISIS propaganda here. They can talk the talk, but nothing indicates that they've got the ability to walk the walk in this case.
Do you really believe that out of tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of refugees with poor and or no documentation that ISIS is not going to try and get a few past the goalie here? How much scrutiny do you think the average refugee is going to be getting, even in countries that devote resources to taking in these refugees?
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Drazzil wrote:
Do you really believe that out of tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of refugees with poor and or no documentation that ISIS is not going to try and get a few past the goalie here? How much scrutiny do you think the average refugee is going to be getting, even in countries that devote resources to taking in these refugees?
Why do they need refugees to do this? They have the resources to get fake passports and plane tickets.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Drazzil wrote:Do you really believe that out of tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of refugees with poor and or no documentation that ISIS is not going to try and get a few past the goalie here?
Why would they? Are you confusing them with Al-Qaeda maybe, who HAS constantly tried to do this?

1. That's not ISIS's M.O...unlike Al-Qaeda, their primary concern is creating a caliphate, not to do as much harm to America as possible. They would like that, sure, but they have bigger goals.
2. They have plenty of supporters already here...no need to try and sneak anyone in.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by TiLT »

Carpet_pissr wrote:
Drazzil wrote:Do you really believe that out of tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of refugees with poor and or no documentation that ISIS is not going to try and get a few past the goalie here?
Why would they? Are you confusing them with Al-Qaeda maybe, who HAS constantly tried to do this?

1. That's not ISIS's M.O...unlike Al-Qaeda, their primary concern is creating a caliphate, not to do as much harm to America as possible. They would like that, sure, but they have bigger goals.
2. They have plenty of supporters already here...no need to try and sneak anyone in.
Don't forget the biggest clue, one that I'm still amazed so few people even consider: If ISIS really did what they claim to have done here, why would they talk about it? If they tell the truth, they just dramatically reduced their chance of success as well as reduced the impact if they should succeed. If they're lying, they get the benefit of spreading fear at absolutely no cost to themselves.

Real terrorist acts aren't advertised in advance. Whenever someone issues some kind of threat in relation to terrorism, it's almost always because they aren't actually intending to go through with it.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Defiant »

I thought I had read that Gulf countries had taken in Syrian refuges, on the order of a million or more, but as migrants rather than as refuges (which makes a positive change for them).

And, given our size, we should be doing more - taking in more refuges, although after we've verified that they have no links to any terrorist groups/extremists (and with a preference to those who know English, since that would help them adjust more easily).
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Isgrimnur »

When the Romanians are on your case, it's time to reevaluate your stand.
Romania's prime minister has criticized Hungary for planning to put up a wire fence along part of its border with Romania to slow the flow of migrants.

Victor Ponta said Tuesday on his Facebook page that "barbed wire, aggressive laws, prison and brutality will not resolve problems."

Ponta added on Antena 3 television that he was "horrified" to think about what to do "if Hungarian troops begin to shoot or kill children and women."

He said the fence plans show that Hungary "in the heart of Europe, has political decision makers which are no better than those in Syria, Libya or other countries that refugees flee from."
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

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Bill Maher On Migrant Crisis: Muslims Making Europe ‘Less Moderate and Tolerant’:
BreitBart.com wrote:Maher began the segment by stating of the migrant crisis: “We all agree… something must be done… But…” he asked, the “question that most of media avoids, is what about the long term?”

“I so understand why moderate Muslims are fleeing their homeland,” he says, “but the answer can’t really be that we empty out the Middle East of all the moderates and leave it to ISIS and the extremists.”

Adding: “If they just come to moderate and tolerant Europe – to someday make it less moderate and tolerant – that isn’t the answer.”

Linda Chavez, Chairman of the Center For Equal Opportunity, said: “It is a demographic time bomb… historical Europeans are not having babies anymore. The only people who are having babies in countries like France, Germany and England are the new Muslim immigrants.”

She also said that; “Europe does a terrible job [of assimilating migrants]… they don’t melt in,” referring specifically to areas in France and Birmingham “with concentrated Muslim communities.”

Also on the panel was author of the Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie, who said: “The solution to the problem is not taking in refugees; the solution to the problem is to fix the problem the refugees are fleeing.”

He said he thought it was “very weird that the countries where they share a language and a culture are the ones not letting them in – that is to say the Gulf States.” He added, however, that the “Europeanisation of the Muslim population is possible.”

Michael C. Moynihan of VICE News and the Daily Beast spoke of the “disturbing” incident in Denmark where, following an Islamist attack on a free-speech event, 700 to a thousand people attended the funeral of the second-generation Danish immigrant terrorist.

“This is alarming to Danish people and it should be alarming to anyone,” he says, “it is a [Muslim] minority that is substantial and incredibly dangerous.”

“Lets not kid ourselves,” adds Maher; “There are a lot of young Muslim men in European cities, who even though they are newcomers to the land, really are not humble to adapting to the ways of the Western world.

“They are again, the newcomers, and yet they bridle at the fact women walk down the street with a miniskirt and sleeveless dresses. Free speech is not something which they always agree with. And often their attitude is, ‘we’re biding our time until you will do things our way.’”
Video here.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Defiant »

He said the fence plans show that Hungary "in the heart of Europe, has political decision makers which are no better than those in Syria, Libya or other countries that refugees flee from."
:roll:

Refusing to take refuges isn't anywhere near as bad as causing the conditions that force people to become refuges.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

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Reuters
Hungary's parliament authorized the government on Monday to deploy the army to help handle a wave of migrants, granting the military the right to use non-lethal force.

It passed a law saying the army could use rubber bullets, pyrotechnical devices, tear gas grenades or net guns, according to the text posted on parliament's website.
...
Prime Minister Viktor Orban told parliament police were unable to secure all Hungary's frontiers - which include outer borders of the EU's passport-free Schengen zone - without help from the army.

"We can defend the Serbian stretch of the border," he said, adding that fortifications on that 175 km (110 mile)-long section were working better than expected.

Hungary has built a fence on the Serbian border and deployed regular patrols, leading to a drastic drop of migrants crossing it. Instead, thousands have entered Croatia and Zagreb has waved them on to Hungary again.

Croatia is not a member of Schengen, and the two countries have exchanged bitter words over the handling of the migrants, with Budapest threatening to veto Croatia's Schengen accession and beginning work to fortify its border with Croatia too.

"We can defend the Croatian stretch but to do that we need the army to patrol together with the police," Orban said.

He added Hungary would act on its own until the EU found common ground on how to handle the flow of migrants.

"Europe is rich but weak. That is the most dangerous combination possible," Orban said.

"The result ... is catastrophic. Because Europe cannot defend its external borders, internal borders are shut again.

"We need to rethink many European inventions, institutions and treaties. But until we do we cannot sit idle. Until the EU states act as one, member states will be forced to go out of their way to fend off this brutal threat."

The government took out ads in countries many migrants set out from. In Lebanon, the newspaper An Nahar on Monday carried a full-page warning in English and Arabic.

"Hungarians are hospitable, but the strongest possible action is taken against those who attempt to enter Hungary illegally," it said.

"The illegal crossing of the country's border is a crime punishable by imprisonment. Do not listen to the people-smugglers. Hungary will not allow illegal immigrants to cross its territory."
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Aren't they all trying to get to the north, well past Hungary? I'd think that a bunch of busses would be cheaper and easier for everyone involved, rather than fences and riot control.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Isgrimnur »

120k distribution
Amid profound disagreements about how to handle Europe’s escalating refugee crisis, European Union leaders forced through a plan Tuesday to distribute asylum seekers across the continent despite dissent from Central European nations.

The difficulty of the negotiations was illustrated by a decision to hold a highly unusual majority vote on the issue. The consensus-driven 28-nation bloc rarely adopts controversial policies without unanimous approval. Now Europe will face the prospect of sending thousands of asylum seekers to nations that have explicitly rejected them, raising powerful questions about the future of the fractious economic and political alliance.

All but five E.U. interior ministers who gathered at a Brussels conclave voted in favor of the plan to spread 120,000 asylum seekers across Europe. Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Romania all voted against it, according to Czech Interior Minister Milan Chovanec. Finland abstained, he said on Twitter.

“Very soon we will see that the emperor has no clothes,” Chovanec said. “Common sense lost today.”
...
Under the terms of the plan approved Tuesday, 23 E.U. nations would pledge to take a certain number of asylum seekers in the coming months. For now, they would be distributed from the frontline nations of Italy and Greece. Of the 120,000 people to be resettled under the plan, 66,000 slots were allocated immediately, and the additional 54,000 will be decided later on.

The plan calls for Germany, France and Spain to take the most asylum seekers. Some will be sent to countries with leaders who are actively hostile to refugees, such as Hungary, which will have to take 1,294 people under the plan. Leaders there rejected an earlier E.U. proposal to be included alongside Italy and Greece among the countries that would distribute the asylum seekers across Europe. The reasoning, they said, was that they were not a frontline nation.
...
Germany’s national railway company on Tuesday announced that it was suspending rail service to Austria because its trains have been overwhelmed with refugees. It was just the latest example of national infrastructure apparently unable to meet the challenge.

The E.U. interior ministers met Tuesday for the second time in eight days, after their previous meeting broke up in acrimony. Many poorer nations say that they do not want to take in the refugees — and that any refugees assigned to them would quickly move across Europe’s borderless frontiers to the richer nations anyway.
...
There were major challenges to the workability of the E.U. plan approved Tuesday, including few guarantees that asylum seekers would actually stay in the country assigned to them. In a borderless Europe, there are no checks between nations. Migrants face losing benefits if they leave one country for another, and they would not be able to obtain them in another nation. But, for example, few people want to stay in Poland when Germany’s high wages lure them next door.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Allocate $2K per individual to the host country. The richer countries that refugees want to go to don't care about the money so it won't be an incentive for them to take more in. But the poor countries that don't want to keep the refugees do care and will want to keep refugees on their roll. Is Hungary going to turn down $2.5M? That's a lot of goulash. Still, it's not enough, increase the amount until you get to a number that works.

Who pays for all this? Germany/ECB.

[/solving Europe]
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by gilraen »

LawBeefaroni wrote:Allocate $2K per individual to the host country. The richer countries that refugees want to go to don't care about the money so it won't be an incentive for them to take more in. But the poor countries that don't want to keep the refugees do care and will want to keep refugees on their roll. Is Hungary going to turn down $2.5M? That's a lot of goulash. Still, it's not enough, increase the amount until you get to a number that works.

Who pays for all this? Germany/ECB.

[/solving Europe]
How far can a one-time payment go? Some of these countries have no jobs even for their own university graduates (e.g. Baltic states; their youth is fleeing to Western Europe and the U.K. to work, there's nothing for them to do at home).

They are also very homogeneous in terms of religion and culture; some might have one single mosque for the entire country (and some have none). What are thousands of Muslim refugees, that have absolutely no chance to find jobs, learn the language or assimilate into the culture, going to do there? Sure, it's nice and safe, and they are fleeing horrific violence, so it's understandable that in the short term, they'll settle for almost anything else.

But in the long term, they have to eat and pray, and live somewhere other than hostels and shelters, and send their children to school. And most of them recognize that reality, which is why they are all trying to get to the "richer" countries, with greater diversity of both culture and opportunity. They aren't exactly eager to stay in the post-Socialist bloc.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Moliere »

"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Moliere »

"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by hepcat »

Unfortunately, he thinks Syria is in Mexico somewhere.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Fantastic, as usual.

Definitely the spiritual successor to TDS IMO.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Isgrimnur »

CNN
The governors of Alabama, Arkansas, Michigan and Texas say they don't want to accept Syrian refugees into their states.

The announcements came after authorities revealed that at least one of the suspects believed to be involved in the Paris terrorist attacks entered Europe among the current wave of Syrian refugees. He had falsely identified himself as a Syrian named Ahmad al Muhammad and was allowed to enter Greece in early October.

In announcing that his state would not accept any Syrian refugees, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott tweeted Monday on his personal account, "I demand the U.S. act similarly," he said. "Security comes first."
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Defiant »

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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Isgrimnur »

Good luck holding that up against a constitutional challenge.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Isgrimnur »

Thirteen
Governors of Illinois, Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, New Hampshire, Arizona, Indiana, Massachusetts, Louisiana, Michigan, Alabama, Texas and Arkansas -- a majority of them Republican -- have said that they are seeking to stop the relocation of new Syrian refugees to their states out of fear that violent extremists posing as refugees might gain entry to the country.

New Hampshire Gov. Maggie Hassan, who is also challenging Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.) for her Senate seat, is the first Democrat to express support for halting the flow of refugees to the U.S. pending further assurances that the refugee vetting process is adequate.
...
At the same time, several acknowledged that they do not have the ability to stop the federal government from accepting and financing the resettlement of refugees to the United States. They have also sought reassurances that the process used to screen refugees is adequate.
...
Republican presidential candidate Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky) said he would introduce a bill to stop refugees from countries with jihadist movements from entering the U.S.
...
At least two Democratic governors have declined to join their Republican counterparts in taking a stance against the refugees.

Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Wolf and Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe both said their states would continue to accept refugees.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by LordMortis »

I think our state (Michigan) has been trying to stop federal placement of refugees here for several years already. I remember something about us trying to stop the transient El Salvadoran refugee children from even having a stop in Michigan several years ago. And it was a big hub bub that flamed and died in the news like a fuse with no dynamite.

A recent Michigander from Syria weighs in

http://woodtv.com/2015/11/15/syrian-in- ... on-stupid/

I can't say I disagree. Though, as the same time, we don't have the means to take care of nor screen 100s of 1000s. I offer no solutions. :(
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Fireball »

I'm glad to see at least some governors stand against the tide of cowardice and prejudice and defend American values: good on Niki Haley (R), Terry McAuliffe (D), and the other governors for welcoming those in need.

EDIT: Sigh, I spoke to soon about Niki Haley, who has joined the bigot brigade.

Not that it matters. None of these governors can actually stop Syrian refugees from being brought to their states.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Smoove_B »

That graphic might need to be updated as his lordship has officially stated (after checking national opinions) that:
Reversing his stance of last month, Gov. Chris Christie on Monday said the United States should not admit any refugees from the Syrian civil war, not even "orphans under age 5."

"I do not trust this administration to effectively vet the people who are supposed to be coming in in order to protect the safety and security of the American people, so I would not permit them in," Christie said on conservative talk show host Hugh Hewitt's syndicated radio show.
I mean, he wants to...but Obama. Regarding NJ:
When asked what position Christie would take on Syrian refugee resettlement in New Jersey, spokesman Kevin Roberts declined to elaborate beyond what was said on the radio program.
Clearly he needs to find out how people in Montana, Iowa and Vermont feel about it before officially stating his opinion.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Holman »

Rip wrote:Enlarge Image
Whatever you do, don't tell them about the slavery.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by malchior »

That infographic is mistitled..."States with a Governor stating (s)he will not accept refugees" is way more accurate. I've still yet to see how any one of these idiots plans on enforcing that pronouncement.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Rip »

malchior wrote:That infographic is mistitled..."States with a Governor stating (s)he will not accept refugees" is way more accurate. I've still yet to see how any one of these idiots plans on enforcing that pronouncement.
You should write a letter of protest to CNN.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by GreenGoo »

Hilariously we just outed an administration that made things much harder for Syrian refugees to come to Canada and replaced it with an administration that has promised to make it easier for Syrian refugees to come to Canada.

We also faced international criticism (not all of it valid, after the facts of the case were revealed) for our immigration policies.

But no, yeah, you guys should let fear guide your humanitarian policies. There are a lot of potential boogey men out there, and standing up against them is the right thing to do.
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by Max Peck »

malchior wrote:That infographic is mistitled..."States with a Governor stating (s)he will not accept refugees" is way more accurate. I've still yet to see how any one of these idiots plans on enforcing that pronouncement.
From an admittedly cynical point of view, they don't need to enforce it -- they just need to stake out an "I told you so!" position in the event that an attack does occur on American soil and even a single refugee is implicated.

On a smaller scale, we're seeing something similar happening up here, with the premier of Saskatchewan calling for a suspension of the federal plan to bring in Syrian refugees, and a notable bit of low-level grumbling in predictably xenophobic Quebec. Aside from that, I'm not seeing much sign of push-back against the idea of bringing refugees here, except for the ongoing skepticism that it will be logistically possible to bring in 25k refugees by year's end.
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GreenGoo
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Re: European Migrant Crisis

Post by GreenGoo »

The Dick Cheney approach.

Bad things will happen sometime in the future and when they do it will be because of this thing I'm railing against now and it will be your fault!
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