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Volkswagen

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:56 pm

Zaxxon wrote:From what I've read, the Mirai, and hydrogen in general, are a joke. They are EVs with an extraneous conversion tossed in. Electricity is used to create the hydrogen cell, then it's converted back to electricity to power the car. Fundamentally, this process cannot be as efficient as a pure BEV.

Then you have much-reduced power output (read: torque), the need to visit a hydrogen station for fill-ups rather than topping off at home, and you're carrying around a literal bomb in your car.

I'll pass.
The thing is, hydrogen is a good way to store electricity. The fuel cells are still expensive but that's similar to the EV battery barrier. They're coming down in price rather quickly.

And a hydrogen tank is not a literal bomb any more than a gas tank or lithium batter is a literal bomb ("hydrogen bombs" are nuclear fission bombs and the tanks in hydrogen cars are in absolutely no way physically capable of producing nuclear fission).

I'm kind of surprised at your immediate dismissal of the idea, knowing how much of the anti-EV bunk you're probably waded though.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:27 pm

Zaxxon wrote:How often do you drive your grill at high rates of speed? ;)
My grill? Never. The canister, every time I replace it.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:41 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:From what I've read, the Mirai, and hydrogen in general, are a joke. They are EVs with an extraneous conversion tossed in. Electricity is used to create the hydrogen cell, then it's converted back to electricity to power the car. Fundamentally, this process cannot be as efficient as a pure BEV.

Then you have much-reduced power output (read: torque), the need to visit a hydrogen station for fill-ups rather than topping off at home, and you're carrying around a literal bomb in your car.

I'll pass.
The thing is, hydrogen is a good way to store electricity. The fuel cells are still expensive but that's similar to the EV battery barrier. They're coming down in price rather quickly.

And a hydrogen tank is not a literal bomb any more than a gas tank or lithium batter is a literal bomb ("hydrogen bombs" are nuclear fission bombs and the tanks in hydrogen cars are in absolutely no way physically capable of producing nuclear fission).

I'm kind of surprised at your immediate dismissal of the idea, knowing how much of the anti-EV bunk you're probably waded though.
It's not an immediate dismissal. It's been a long road. I just found that l don't see the worth in an energy-efficiency inferior method that also produces a less-enjoyable vehicle.

And yes, hydrogen fuel cells are more volatile than either properly managed Li-Ion battery cells or gasoline tanks.

For a quick-ish overview of why hydrogen is fundamentally flawed, see the Wait But Why Tesla piece. There's a footnote in there with some explanation from the author, a video from Musk, and a more detailed breakdown. I think hydrogen is being pursued as much as it is due to the facts that it's friendlier to incumbents (keep on the fueling station methodology and nat gas sourcing) and the regulatory credits are huge.

It's just not very compelling from an end-user perspective, and will become less so as batteries continue to improve while hydrogen hits the barriers of physics.

I'm open to being proven wrong, but the initial hands-on pieces I've seen on the Mirai don't inspire confidence. Especially with Toyota reportedly selling them at a giant loss and their cost still being relatively high.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:42 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:How often do you drive your grill at high rates of speed? ;)
My grill? Never. The canister, every time I replace it.
So much, much less than 'every time you drive'. :)

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Rip » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:08 pm

"I think it's just our perception of hydrogen being extremely flammable and dangerous compared to what we're comfortable with in this day and age, which is gasoline," she said. "Gasoline is also an extremely flammable fuel, and one that does not escape like hydrogen."

The hydrogen fuel cell tanks in the Toyota Mirai are pressurized up to 10,000 psi, and hydrogen is 16 times lighter than air. So, if a tank were punctured or otherwise compromised, the hydrogen gas would instantaneously dissipate into the atmosphere, Hartline said.

John Kopasz, a scientist at the Argonne National Laboratory who performs research on hydrogen gas production, said that while there are inherent dangers with any combustible fuel, hydrogen fuel is safer than gasoline.
If a regular car's fuel tank is punctured, gasoline leaks out and pools beneath the vehicle, creating a ready source of fuel for a prolonged burn, Kopasz said.

In fact, in the case of the hydrogen-filled Hindenburg, most of the fire was fueled by diesel fuel for the airship's engines and a flammable lacquer coating on the outside of the dirigible.
Today's hydrogen fuel tanks are also made from highly durable carbon fiber whose strength is assessed not only in crash tests but also in trials in which bullets are fired at it.

Toyota reached back to its roots as a loom manufacturer in the early 20th century to create triple-layer hydrogen tanks made of woven carbon fiber.

The tanks, which are lined internally with plastic, underwent "extreme" crash and ballistics testing, Hartline said, noting that they were "shot with bullets that actually bounced off."
http://www.computerworld.com/article/28 ... burgs.html

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:17 pm

Sweet. That'd not what I had read prior.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:19 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
It's not an immediate dismissal. It's been a long road. I just found that l don't see the worth in an energy-efficiency inferior method that also produces a less-enjoyable vehicle.
This is a very JeffV-ish position: There's no worth to it because it's not better than EV. Just like there's no point to a car that can't go over 300 miles on a charge. Wake me when they're perfect.

Hydrogen has some advantages, like less downtime and longer range. Hydrogen can be stored indefinitely. Li-Ion cells lose charge. They also lose efficiency with use. Hydrogen fuel cells don't. Would you rather have hydrogen fuel cells or combustion engines filling the roles that EVs can't?

Zaxxon wrote:And yes, hydrogen fuel cells are more volatile than either properly managed Li-Ion battery cells or gasoline tanks.
More volatile isn't the same as a literal bomb.
Zaxxon wrote: For a quick-ish overview of why hydrogen is fundamentally flawed, see the Wait But Why Tesla piece. There's a footnote in there with some explanation from the author, a video from Musk, and a more detailed breakdown. I think hydrogen is being pursued as much as it is due to the facts that it's friendlier to incumbents (keep on the fueling station methodology and nat gas sourcing) and the regulatory credits are huge.

It's just not very compelling from an end-user perspective, and will become less so as batteries continue to improve while hydrogen hits the barriers of physics.

I'm open to being proven wrong, but the initial hands-on pieces I've seen on the Mirai don't inspire confidence. Especially with Toyota reportedly selling them at a giant loss and their cost still being relatively high.
I'll give them a look.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:30 pm

You're right: I didn't mean to imply that there is no use anywhere for fuel cells. It doesn't seem like it's competitive today for the general consumer use case, and long term the ceiling on battery cells is higher than that of hydrogen.

For most people, the quicker-to-recharge and longer range are red herrings. From a practical perspective, an EV requires no charge time (it's full at breakfast) and doesn't use its full charge (for Teslas-lower end EVs aren't there yet) something like 363 days out of 365.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Rip » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:52 pm

I've been looking forward to the maturation of hydrogen for a decade. Nice to see it finally getting some much deserved attention.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by em2nought » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:21 pm

Latest concept from VW, Image Greenest vehicle yet, and jobs for Syrians. :mrgreen:
#no collusion #no obstruction #get over it

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by hepcat » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:33 pm

You're not quite sure what ethnicity Syrian is, are you? :P
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:52 pm

Image

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Drazzil » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:24 am

hepcat wrote:Bullet point number 1:

1: Our tanks are designed not to leak.

:lol:
Toyota... Moving forward... :D
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by stessier » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:51 am

A NYT article - no real new information, but a clear presentation of the timeline.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Max Peck » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:27 am

Audi comes clean about playing dirty.

Audi says 2.1 million cars have 'cheat' emissions software
Audi has said 2.1 million of its cars worldwide were fitted with the software that allowed parent Volkswagen to cheat US emission tests. Some 1.42 million Audi vehicles with so-called EU5 engines are affected in western Europe, with 577,000 in Germany, and almost 13,000 in the US. Affected models include the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5, a spokesman told the Reuters news agency

VW said last week that 11 million cars within the group could be affected.

The scandal was revealed after the US Environmental Protection Agency found that some diesel cars were fitted with devices that could detect when the engine was being tested and could change the car's performance to improve results. The German company apologised for breaching consumers' trust, and on Friday announced that Matthias Mueller was replacing Martin Winterkorn as chief executive. Mr Matthias promised a "relentless" investigation to uncover what went wrong. There were also unconfirmed reports on Monday that senior R&D heads working across the car group had been suspended. Reuters said the suspensions involved staff from the Audi, Porsche and the VW brands.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:44 am

German suspensions
Volkswagen U.S. CEO Michael Horn on Thursday apologized for the company's emissions scandal in testimony before a Congressional committee, pledged to fix cars and said three people in Germany have been suspended.

Horn said he believes the company's American workers did not know about the matter.

He said for the first time that the automaker would fix the 482,000 U.S. diesel cars involved in the scandal, not buy them back from consumers, though he indicated the company is weighing compensating owners in some capacity.
...
Appearing before the House Energy and Commerce Committee's Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee, Horn testified under oath that the company would accept "full responsibility" for fitting software on diesel cars that fooled regulators into believing the vehicles were compliant with emissions regulations.

Volkswagen has acknowledged that about 11 million diesel cars worldwide — including 482,000 in the U.S. — were rigged with the so-called defeat device.
...
The automaker is temporarily banned from selling the diesel cars fitted with the manipulative software until it can deliver a fix. On Thursday, the company confirmed that it will not sell 2016 diesel cars in the U.S.

Volkswagen is now subsidizing U.S. dealers to help them navigate the crisis, Horn said, calling dealer profitability his top priority.
...
U.S. Rep. Diana DeGette, D-Colo., ranking member of the subcommittee, pressed Horn to deliver answers.

"You haven't revealed who is responsible for this scheme," she said.

While Horn has not been implicated in the scandal, he repeated that the company's internal investigation is ongoing. Horn said he believes no American employees knew about the matter until recently, confirming statements by Volkswagen global CEO Matthias Mueller earlier this week that the cheating originated from Germany.

"My understanding is this was not a corporate decision," Horn said. "This was something individuals did."
...
But he said he did not know about the manipulative software until Sept. 3, 2015, about two weeks before the EPA disclosed the matter.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:16 pm

And Porsche and Audi and...
Volkswagen used devices to cheat air pollution tests in diesel luxury vehicles, U.S. environmental regulators said on Monday, in a new blow to the automaker already reeling from similar allegations regarding millions of smaller diesel engines.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said it is now looking at 3.0-liter V6 diesel engines used mostly in larger, more expensive models like the Porsche Cayenne sport utility vehicle in addition to engines on Jettas, Passats and other mass-market models whose test-deceiving software were initially targeted by the agency in mid-September.

Volkswagen in a response Monday took issue with the EPA's findings, saying that "no software has been installed" in its 3.0-liter V6 diesel engines "to alter emissions characteristics in a forbidden manner."

VW made similar denials for more than a year to U.S. regulators before admitting to cheating on the four-cylinder diesels.
...
The V6 diesel was designed by VW's Audi unit and widely used in premium models sold by the VW, Audi and Porsche brands in model years 2014 through 2016.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:43 pm

Wired wrote:Volkswagen of America sales dropped 24.7 percent in November compared to the same month in 2014, the automaker announced today. The drop, from 31,725 to 23,882 cars, is the latest blow in the ongoing disaster that is VW’s diesel scandal.

Meanwhile, the auto industry as a whole is on pace for record sales in November, according to the Detroit Free Press.

“The November sales results reflect the impact of the recent stop-sale for all 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI vehicles as well as for the 3.0L V6,” VW says, referring to the two engines involved in the scandal.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:48 pm

This was going to happen (as it had to, since half their cars are no longer for sale). The more interesting part to me will be to see whether they take a sustained hit once these models are back on the market with their 'fixes' applied. My guess is it'll be small if anything. Folks are fickle when it comes to car-buying habits.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:01 pm

Zaxxon wrote:This was going to happen (as it had to, since half their cars are no longer for sale). The more interesting part to me will be to see whether they take a sustained hit once these models are back on the market with their 'fixes' applied. My guess is it'll be small if anything. Folks are fickle when it comes to car-buying habits.
It might not be until 2017 or 2018 that they can even get their diesels back on the market in the US. They have to completely overhaul the engine and powertrain design from what I've heard, it's not just a software patch.



And then there's the damage to the brand. I mean it's gotten pretty bad.
Today [11/20/2015], VW finally came all the way clean: Not one [diesel] VW or Audi sold in the United States from the 2009 to 2016 model years met US regulations.

The “good” news, if you want to call it that, is that there’s a really simple way to tell if your diesel is affected. Does it say VW or Audi on it, and is it 2009 or newer? Then you’re affected. The bad news is that this affects more US vehicles — an additional 85,000, according to the EPA. The Porsche Cayenne is also affected; Porsche’s brand had escaped tarnish thus far.

I admit that I'm considering one on a massive discount but I don't see their reputation recovering any time soon.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:14 pm

I agree with you--the VW name is taking a beating. I won't be buying any vehicle under the VW umbrella for a very long time. But I'm the exception. (Even you, someone who is following the story, is still considering one.)

The last I read is that their 'fix' will bequite simple for Europe, although the US's requirements are more stringent. The whole thing is bizarre--if they can actually meet requirements with such a simple fix (in Europe), why all the deception and huge risk-taking to not do it from the start?

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:03 pm

Zaxxon wrote:I agree with you--the VW name is taking a beating. I won't be buying any vehicle under the VW umbrella for a very long time. But I'm the exception. (Even you, someone who is following the story, is still considering one.)
I generally hate VW (and despise Audi) but it's hard to turn down a deep discount. I thought I'd be the exception. I really don't care about the perception of the nameplate on my car whereas other people are all about the brand.

But then I think about them cheating the emissions which really pisses me off and it's easier to turn down the discount.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:05 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:I really don't care about the perception of the nameplate on my car whereas other people are all about the brand.
Me either.
But then I think about them cheating the emissions which really pisses me off and it's easier to turn down the discount.
Bingo. I don't care what others think about my car (see exhibits A-C: Hyundai, Prius, Prius). But it bugs me to give cashola cola to a company so repugnant. Ditto GM and their decade-long ignition fiasco.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:37 am

Bloomberg
Volkswagen AG all but eliminated one front in the pollution scandal that has plagued the carmaker for nearly three months, after the company’s suspicions of illegal discrepancies in carbon-dioxide emissions proved unfounded.

Only “slight deviations” were found in a fraction of the 800,000 cars involved in the CO2 investigation, the Wolfsburg, Germany-based company said in a statement Wednesday. While there may be a “minor economic impact” from the issue, Volkswagen said it no longer faces potential damages of as much as 2 billion euros ($2.2 billion). The shares rose 6.6 percent, the most since Oct. 7, to 132.20 euros at 1:55 p.m. in Frankfurt.
...
While the findings of the CO2 probe is positive for VW, “there is no link to the emission cheating issue at diesel engines,” said Michael Punzet, an analyst with DZ Bank in Frankfurt. “We remain skeptical on VW as we still expect a negative mid-term impact on sales, refinancing and pricing.”
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:36 pm

Jackpot
Volkswagen is taking a major step toward compensating owners and government regulators for its emissions cheating scandal. But it will take much longer to repair the damage to its reputation.

The German automaker has agreed to spend up to $15.3 billion to settle consumer lawsuits and government allegations that its diesel cars cheated on U.S. emissions tests. The settlement announced Tuesday is believed to be the largest auto-related class-action settlement in U.S. history.

Up to $10 billion will go to 475,000 VW or Audi diesel owners. VW agreed to either buy back or repair their vehicles, although it hasn’t yet developed a fix for the problem. Owners will also receive payments of $5,100 to $10,000.

The settlement still must be approved by U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer, who has set a July 26 hearing for preliminary approval. Final approval is expected in October.
My colleague bougt one used last year for ~$19k. Current estimates are that his payout for a buyback will be ~$30k.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:37 pm

Details
The price will be based on the "Clean Trade in Value" quoted by the NADA Used Car Guide for September 2015. That reflects the price of a vehicle before the diesel emissions scam was revealed. Since then, used VW diesel prices have dropped an average of 19 percent. The buyback prices range from $12,500 to $44,000.
...
The goal of the settlement is to get at least 85 percent of the defective diesels off the road, scrapped and recycled. That implies some owners would prefer to keep their VW and Audi diesels and just take the diminished value compensation. The automaker is still working on a fix for the problem that might involve software or hardware changes, or both.
...
You can find out more at website VWCourtSettlement.com. But don't expect an immediate payout. The settlement document says that, "The earliest possible time for payments to begin is October 2016." For one thing, there will be a required period for public comment before the deal with the EPA, Federal Trade Commission, U.S. Justice Department and the California Air Resources Board is finalized.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by stessier » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:01 am

This article started strong, but then failed to deliver few actual details. One it did provide is there were 6 generations of the defeat device. Incredible the number of people who had to know about this thing.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:21 pm

2l settlement approved
A federal judge has approved a $14.7-billion settlement in the Volkswagen emissions-cheating case, the largest auto-scandal settlement in U.S. history.

The deal, approved Tuesday, gives about 475,000 owners of Volkswagens and Audis with 2-liter diesel engines the opportunity to have their cars bought back or modified by Volkswagen and to seek additional cash compensation. It also provides billions of dollars to support environmental programs, reduce emissions and promote zero-emissions vehicles.

U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco, who has overseen the litigation against the German automaker, approved the settlement that was proposed in July. He called the deal “fair, reasonable and adequate.”
...
Under the settlement, owners of certain 2-liter diesel cars made by Volkswagen in the model years 2009 through 2015 will receive between $12,500 and $44,000 from the automaker to buy back their cars. Leases of those vehicles may be terminated without penalty, and leaseholders also may seek cash payments.

Instead of having their cars bought back, drivers can choose to have VW modify their vehicles to meet emissions standards — once that method is approved by the California Air Resources Board and the Environmental Protection Agency. Federal officials said such a modification does not yet exist, though the company is working on a fix.

Regardless of whether they choose the buyback or modification option, owners will also receive a cash payment of at least $5,100 and as much as $10,000, depending on the model.
...
The agreement does not cover about 90,000 cars with 3.0-liter engines that also had the cheating software. Volkswagen, regulators and consumers’ lawyers are still negotiating a possible settlement for those vehicles.

Under the deal, Volkswagen will pay $2.7 billion into a trust to support environmental programs and reduce emissions, as well as shell out $2 billion over a 10-year period to invest in and promote zero-emissions vehicles.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:51 pm

FBI arrest
The first Volkswagen executive has been arrested in the "Dieselgate" affair, reports the New York Times. The FBI charged former regulatory compliance chief Oliver Schmidt with conspiracy to defraud the United States, said unnamed law enforcement and company insiders. Schmidt reportedly gave false technical explanations for high emissions levels discovered during 2014 tests and only acknowledged the existence of software "defeat devices" once the scandal broke last September.
...
In a July press conference, NY state Attorney General Eric Schneiderman said the company only admitted the scam "when they knew the regulators had the goods on them." To illustrate the point, he showed an email sent from Oliver Schmidt to a VW spokesperson that read, "[Audi's] V6 has exactly the same issue [as Volkswagen diesels], but not public yet. They have not been caught." That, Schneiderman said, shows that, "these actions highlight how stubborn and unrepentant the culture at Volkswagen is that gave rise to the systematic cheating and deception described in this complaint."
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by stessier » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:24 pm

In a similar vein, Fiat Chrysler has been accused by the EPA of installing software that allows excess emissions. I need more information before deciding how outraged to be.

A troubling statement introducing politics.
"FCA US intends to work with the incoming administration to present its case and resolve this matter fairly and equitably and to assure the EPA and FCA US customers that the company's diesel-powered vehicles meet all applicable regulatory requirements," the automaker said in a statement after the allegations.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Biyobi » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:10 pm

stessier wrote:In a similar vein, Fiat Chrysler has been accused by the EPA of installing software that allows excess emissions. I need more information before deciding how outraged to be.

A troubling statement introducing politics.
"FCA US intends to work with the incoming administration to present its case and resolve this matter fairly and equitably and to assure the EPA and FCA US customers that the company's diesel-powered vehicles meet all applicable regulatory requirements," the automaker said in a statement after the allegations.
Nicely worded. "We know Obama's administration would totally rake us over the coals but we'll say several nice things about Trump and he'll happily change EPA regulations so we meet them."

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:53 pm

Bloomberg
A Volkswagen AG compliance executive who pleaded guilty in the U.S. for his role in the company’s $30 billion emissions cheating scandal was sentenced to 7 years in prison.

Oliver Schmidt, VW’s compliance liaison with American regulators, pleaded guilty in August to one count of conspiracy to defraud the U.S. and another of violating the Clean Air Act. Federal prosecutors sought the maximum of seven years, while Schmidt asked U.S. District Judge Sean Cox to limit his sentence to 40 months, saying he’d been coached to lie about emissions by his bosses.
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Cox sentenced Schmidt to 60 months for the first count and 24 months for the second count, to run consecutively. Schmidt was fined $400,000. Schmidt knew VW’s vehicles weren’t compliant with U.S. emissions standards, Cox told the defendant.
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Volkswagen has already incurred about $30 billion in costs following its September 2015 admission that it outfitted about 11 million diesel cars worldwide with a defeat device, embedded software that allowed the vehicles to recognize when they were being tested in laboratory conditions, and to reduce emissions to meet acceptable levels.
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The company and its executives are still under investigation in Germany and it faces investor lawsuits in the U.S. and at home.

Schmidt is the second employee sent to prison for participating in the cheating scheme. James Liang, a veteran VW engineer, was sentenced to 40 months in prison in August. Liang, who pleaded guilty to conspiracy last year and has been cooperating with prosecutors, has appealed his sentence.

Schmidt, a German national, was arrested in Miami while on vacation. He was deemed a flight risk and denied bail. Five other executives were indicted by the U.S. and remain in Germany, avoiding arrest. They include executives who led engine development as well as the failed efforts to design a diesel engine that would meet the tougher emissions standards the U.S. adopted for 2007, as well as another liaison to U.S. regulators.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Max Peck » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:10 am

Who'da thunk that a German car manufacturer would think that gassing people was a good idea?
There has been condemnation of experiments funded by German carmakers in which humans and monkeys reportedly inhaled diesel exhaust fumes.

German media say the health impact research was done by EUGT, a body funded by Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW.

Social Democrat politician Stephan Weil - a VW board member - called the studies "absurd and abhorrent".

Daimler also condemned them. VW is embroiled in a scandal over software that gave false diesel exhaust data.

EUGT was dissolved by the carmakers last year. On Thursday the New York Times reported that the EUGT research was designed to counter a 2012 decision by the World Health Organization to classify diesel exhaust as a carcinogen.

It said that in 2014, EUGT had exposed 10 monkeys to fumes from a diesel VW Beetle at a lab in New Mexico.

Then at the weekend Germany's Stuttgarter Zeitung and SWR radio reported that 19 men and six women had inhaled diesel fumes in another EUGT experiment.

During a month of tests at a lab in Aachen, west Germany, they were exposed to various concentrations of diesel fumes, which contain toxic nitrogen oxides (NOx). The BBC has not seen the study itself, but German media say it was published in 2016.

Mr Weil said "this all needs to be investigated". "Lobbying can be no excuse whatsoever for such testing."
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Montag » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:22 pm

Our EPA did it's own human testing, including on children. Search EPA tests diesel exhaust on people.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by stessier » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:50 pm

Looks like it is BMW's turn (for two models not sold in the US).
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:18 pm

Reuters
The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) is suing Volkswagen (VW) and its former chief executive Martin Winterkorn over the German automaker’s diesel emissions scandal, alleging a “massive fraud” on U.S. investors.
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Regulators and investors argue VW should have informed them sooner about the scope of the scandal, while VW says it was not clear it would face billions of dollars in fines and penalties as others had paid out much lower sums for similar offences.

The SEC said in its civil complaint on Thursday that from April 2014 to May 2015, VW issued more than $13 billion in bonds and asset-backed securities in U.S. markets at a time when senior executives knew that more than 500,000 U.S. diesel vehicles grossly exceeded legal vehicle emissions limits.

VW “reaped hundreds of millions of dollars in benefit by issuing the securities at more attractive rates for the company,” the SEC said, adding it “repeatedly lied to and misled United States investors, consumers, and regulators as part of an illegal scheme to sell its purportedly ‘clean diesel’ cars and billions of dollars of corporate bonds and other securities in the United States.”

The suit filed in San Francisco seeks to bar Winterkorn from serving as an officer or director of a public U.S. company and recover “ill-gotten gains” along with civil penalties and interest.
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VW said in a statement the SEC complaint “is legally and factually flawed, and Volkswagen will contest it vigorously. The SEC has brought an unprecedented complaint over securities sold only to sophisticated investors who were not harmed and received all payments of interest and principal in full and on time.”

The automaker added that the SEC “does not charge that any person involved in the bond issuance knew that Volkswagen diesel vehicles did not comply with U.S. emissions rules when these securities were sold” but repeats claims about Winterkorn “who played no part in the sales”.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:32 pm

The "loss" these investors suffered are the higher interest rates they would have recieved if VW was a shittier investment. I mean you loaned money at an agreed to rate, you got paid back with interest. Meanwhile, shareholders and customers got crushed.

But by all means, let's protect the poor, taken-advantage-of investment banks from not-getting-more-money. That's where the SEC needs to focus.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:23 pm

CNN
German prosecutors have charged former Volkswagen chief executive Martin Winterkorn with fraud over diesel emissions.

Prosecutors in Braunschweig announced Monday that Winterkorn was one of five people indicted in a case related to the automaker's diesel emissions-cheating scandal.

Winterkorn has been accused of a particularly serious fraud, according to a statement from prosecutors. The charge carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.

The former CEO was also charged with embezzlement and violating competition law. He could be ordered to repay bonuses he received as a reward for sales.
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Another 36 people remain under investigation.
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Sales of Volkswagen diesel cars are now rebounding in Germany. Some 43% of all Volkswagen brand cars sold in Germany last year were diesel, close to their pre-scandal share of 49%.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Thu May 23, 2019 4:22 pm

When you get your company in the shitter by cheating on diesel emissions, and then pay out billions of dollars to lower emissions, and then several states use the money to literally buy diesel vehicles...

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu May 23, 2019 4:25 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 4:22 pm
When you get your company in the shitter by cheating on diesel emissions, and then pay out billions of dollars to lower emissions, and then several states use the money to literally buy diesel vehicles...

:horse:
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