Octopus Overlords

coopasonic wrote:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ions-cheat

LawBeefaroni wrote:Noted and discussed here.

And here.

Drazzil wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:Noted and discussed here.

And here.

Yes but it didn't have its own thread. I felt like it deserved its own thread

LawBeefaroni wrote:

stessier wrote:I heard on CNBC this morning that the Justice Department has begun an investigation into VW. The more I think about it, the more mad I get. Somebody deserves jail time. Not the rest of their lives type time, but more than a weekend.

Had an interesting discussion with a friend about this over the weekend. He contended that GM's ignition switch thing was worse. They knew about it for 12+ years and it led to some fatalities. They were also found guilty of wire fraud. GM will only pay around $1B and face a 3 year probation after which the case will be dismissed if GM is good. I don't think anyone did jail time.

OTOH, every single one of the VW cars was spewing higher emissions than they should have been where as only a small percentage of GM cars had switches actually fail.


It's a tough call but if GM and Toyota (and their acceleration issue) are any indication, VW won't get over a few $B max in fines in the US.

I think they should face more and I think GM and TMC should have too.

LawBeefaroni wrote:As for the company, like I said in the OIC thread, the question is whether this is the tip of the iceberg or not. If there were other Audi/VW cars involved or if other countries pile on, which it looks like may happen in Europe, this is only the beginning.


IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.

How did this all happen? To start, there had been a pattern of non-compliance in emissions observed by a joint research commission in Europe. A list of VW products dominated that list. This research commission then reached out to a non-profit group, the International Council for Clean Transportation (ICCT), to conduct investigative testing. The ICCT next funded West Virginia University (WVU) to do various tests.

Why WVU? It had experience in this sort of testing, but mainly WVU's previous work focused on commercial trucks. Sure enough, the institution had found data that showed commercial trucks in the US were out of compliance with emissions regulations in 1998, which led to a $1 billion fine levied against the trucking industry.

Vorret wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:As for the company, like I said in the OIC thread, the question is whether this is the tip of the iceberg or not. If there were other Audi/VW cars involved or if other countries pile on, which it looks like may happen in Europe, this is only the beginning.


IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.

I thought it was the other way around?

Vorret wrote: Also, I thought it was only diesel VW that we're affected not gas ?

Vorret wrote: edit: If it continue dropping like that I might pick up some shares!

Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)

Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)

I know I said yesterday that I wouldn't buy a VW because of this, but if their dealerships get hit hard I imagine there will be some pretty amazing deals. Being that I'll be in the market for a new car in a few months, I'll be watching and if it's too good to pass up...

stessier wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)

I know I said yesterday that I wouldn't buy a VW because of this, but if their dealerships get hit hard I imagine there will be some pretty amazing deals. Being that I'll be in the market for a new car in a few months, I'll be watching and if it's too good to pass up...

Here's another question - even if VW fixes all the cars so emissions are in compliance, it's got to effect mileage performance, right? So there's going to be a class action lawsuit from the owners for that as well as lower resale value, right. I mean, this is America after all.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.

I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.

Zaxxon wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.

I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.

I agree with you there. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the fact that this is admittedly willful from the start makes that hard sell a little easier. Quantifying the # of deaths/hospitalizations is difficult, but it's clearly > 0 and was the obvious, foreseeable result of VW's actions, and VW isn't even disputing their intent.

Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.

stessier wrote:

Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.

I'm curious how?

Smoove_B wrote:

stessier wrote:

Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.

I'm curious how?

Because standards are set by the EPA. And eventually someone will argue this is a perfect example of how government regulations are hurting corporations. If anyone thinks this will end up with anything other than a slap on the wrist, you're deluding yourself.

Jaymann wrote:I understand Trump drives a Porsche.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.

I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.

I agree with you there. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the fact that this is admittedly willful from the start makes that hard sell a little easier. Quantifying the # of deaths/hospitalizations is difficult, but it's clearly > 0 and was the obvious, foreseeable result of VW's actions, and VW isn't even disputing their intent.

You also get into a very uncomfortable area. I mean if 450,000 cars with 40X emissions kill N number of people, then 250,000,000 cars with 1X emissions kill 14*N people. No automotive industry member or supporter or bought politician wants that on the public record.

Zaxxon wrote:Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

Zaxxon wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote: You also get into a very uncomfortable area. I mean if 450,000 cars with 40X emissions kill N number of people, then 250,000,000 cars with 1X emissions kill 14*N people. No automotive industry member or supporter or bought politician wants that on the public record.

Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

stessier wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

Unless they, too, are hiding emissions fixing software.

stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.

Unagi wrote:

stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.

Know you wont!

stessier wrote:

Unagi wrote:

stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.

Know you wont!

It's a law course, not English!

Zaxxon wrote: Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

stessier wrote:Winterkorn just resigned as CEO.

Surprised it took that long.

LawBeefaroni wrote:I don't think he or anyone else expected him to stay in the position. The moment he apologized, it was over for him.

I think it was the right thing to do, rather than the "I had no idea this was happening but we will get to the bottom of it" usual crap we get. But it signaled his imminent doom.

Jeff V wrote:

Zaxxon wrote: Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

Can we take them on long road trips yet?

Zaxxon wrote: I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.

malchior wrote:This is a crazy scandal. I can't imagine how it occurred; I mean how many people had to be involved or could have been aware about the gamesmanship? Dozens? Also I can't help but feel that VW down the road is going to break itself up to salvage value in "non-affected" brands - say Porsche for example.

Zaxxon wrote: Can we take them on long road trips yet?