Volkswagen

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:21 am

Volkswagen diesel cars intentionally designed to fool US smog checks.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:27 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ions-cheat

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:42 am

Noted and discussed here.

And here.

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:45 am

coopasonic wrote:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ions-cheat

Thanks coop!!

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:56 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:Noted and discussed here.

And here.

Yes but it didn't have its own thread. I felt like it deserved its own thread

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:04 am

Drazzil wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Noted and discussed here.

And here.
Yes but it didn't have its own thread. I felt like it deserved its own thread

Sure, I was just pointing out that there was some good information in the other threads.

I'll move my latest post here.

LawBeefaroni wrote:
stessier wrote:I heard on CNBC this morning that the Justice Department has begun an investigation into VW. The more I think about it, the more mad I get. Somebody deserves jail time. Not the rest of their lives type time, but more than a weekend.
Had an interesting discussion with a friend about this over the weekend. He contended that GM's ignition switch thing was worse. They knew about it for 12+ years and it led to some fatalities. They were also found guilty of wire fraud. GM will only pay around $1B and face a 3 year probation after which the case will be dismissed if GM is good. I don't think anyone did jail time.

OTOH, every single one of the VW cars was spewing higher emissions than they should have been where as only a small percentage of GM cars had switches actually fail.

It's a tough call but if GM and Toyota (and their acceleration issue) are any indication, VW won't get over a few $B max in fines in the US.

I think they should face more and I think GM and TMC should have too.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:11 am

As for the company, like I said in the OIC thread, the question is whether this is the tip of the iceberg or not. If there were other Audi/VW cars involved or if other countries pile on, which it looks like may happen in Europe, this is only the beginning.

IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:26 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:As for the company, like I said in the OIC thread, the question is whether this is the tip of the iceberg or not. If there were other Audi/VW cars involved or if other countries pile on, which it looks like may happen in Europe, this is only the beginning.

IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.

I thought it was the other way around?

Also, I thought it was only diesel VW that we're affected not gas ?

edit: If it continue dropping like that I might pick up some shares!

Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:35 am

On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:36 am

I'm not sure how this is R&P, but since it has it's own thread - Ars has an article with more details of how the scheme unraveled. VW has known since 12/2014 that they were in trouble.

How did this all happen? To start, there had been a pattern of non-compliance in emissions observed by a joint research commission in Europe. A list of VW products dominated that list. This research commission then reached out to a non-profit group, the International Council for Clean Transportation (ICCT), to conduct investigative testing. The ICCT next funded West Virginia University (WVU) to do various tests.

Why WVU? It had experience in this sort of testing, but mainly WVU's previous work focused on commercial trucks. Sure enough, the institution had found data that showed commercial trucks in the US were out of compliance with emissions regulations in 1998, which led to a $1 billion fine levied against the trucking industry.

More fun at the link.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:37 am

Vorret wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:As for the company, like I said in the OIC thread, the question is whether this is the tip of the iceberg or not. If there were other Audi/VW cars involved or if other countries pile on, which it looks like may happen in Europe, this is only the beginning.

IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.
I thought it was the other way around?

You're right, VW owns Porsche.

Vorret wrote: Also, I thought it was only diesel VW that we're affected not gas ?

As far as we know. It's likely that it's only diesel but there are a lot of diesels on the road in Europe.

Vorret wrote: edit: If it continue dropping like that I might pick up some shares!

Some people thought it was a bargain yesterday too. Eventually it will be but knowing exactly when will be a tough call.

Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)

I know I said yesterday that I wouldn't buy a VW because of this, but if their dealerships get hit hard I imagine there will be some pretty amazing deals. Being that I'll be in the market for a new car in a few months, I'll be watching and if it's too good to pass up...

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:39 am

Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.

I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:39 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)
I know I said yesterday that I wouldn't buy a VW because of this, but if their dealerships get hit hard I imagine there will be some pretty amazing deals. Being that I'll be in the market for a new car in a few months, I'll be watching and if it's too good to pass up...

Here's another question - even if VW fixes all the cars so emissions are in compliance, it's got to effect mileage performance, right? So there's going to be a class action lawsuit from the owners for that as well as lower resale value, right. I mean, this is America after all.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:42 am

stessier wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)
I know I said yesterday that I wouldn't buy a VW because of this, but if their dealerships get hit hard I imagine there will be some pretty amazing deals. Being that I'll be in the market for a new car in a few months, I'll be watching and if it's too good to pass up...
Here's another question - even if VW fixes all the cars so emissions are in compliance, it's got to effect mileage performance, right? So there's going to be a class action lawsuit from the owners for that as well as lower resale value, right. I mean, this is America after all.

Oh yeah. Car owners, shareholders... No doubt the class-action shops and state AGs are falling over themselves to get the wheels in motion.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:47 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.

I agree with you there. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the fact that this is admittedly willful from the start makes that hard sell a little easier. Quantifying the # of deaths/hospitalizations is difficult, but it's clearly > 0 and was the obvious, foreseeable result of VW's actions, and VW isn't even disputing their intent.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:54 am

Zaxxon wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.
I agree with you there. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the fact that this is admittedly willful from the start makes that hard sell a little easier. Quantifying the # of deaths/hospitalizations is difficult, but it's clearly > 0 and was the obvious, foreseeable result of VW's actions, and VW isn't even disputing their intent.

You also get into a very uncomfortable area. I mean if 450,000 cars with 40X emissions kill N number of people, then 250,000,000 cars with 1X emissions kill 14*N people. No automotive industry member or supporter or bought politician wants that on the public record.

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:58 am

I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:02 pm

I understand Trump drives a Porsche.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:09 pm

Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.

I'm curious how?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:14 pm

stessier wrote:
Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.
I'm curious how?

Because standards are set by the EPA. And eventually someone will argue this is a perfect example of how government regulations are hurting corporations. If anyone thinks this will end up with anything other than a slap on the wrist, you're deluding yourself.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:19 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
stessier wrote:
Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.
I'm curious how?
Because standards are set by the EPA. And eventually someone will argue this is a perfect example of how government regulations are hurting corporations. If anyone thinks this will end up with anything other than a slap on the wrist, you're deluding yourself.

But who set the standards doesn't matter. What matters is that someone set out to specifically violate a law to sell their product. On top of that, they trumpeted their ability to pass the law - something others have trouble doing! It's simply mind boggling that anyone thought this was a good idea. I mean, I go through quarterly legal compliance courses for my company - every employee does. To think someone group at a multibillion dollar company sat down and came up with this plan...it's inconceivable to me - and yet it happened.

The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:27 pm

Jaymann wrote:I understand Trump drives a Porsche.

He drives THE Porsche, damn it! The Donald doesn't just own ANY Porsche! How dare you say that?! And how dare you not bring up the poll ratings showing him ahead in every area of life!?!

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:16 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.

My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.
I agree with you there. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the fact that this is admittedly willful from the start makes that hard sell a little easier. Quantifying the # of deaths/hospitalizations is difficult, but it's clearly > 0 and was the obvious, foreseeable result of VW's actions, and VW isn't even disputing their intent.
You also get into a very uncomfortable area. I mean if 450,000 cars with 40X emissions kill N number of people, then 250,000,000 cars with 1X emissions kill 14*N people. No automotive industry member or supporter or bought politician wants that on the public record.

Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:19 pm

Zaxxon wrote:Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

Unless they, too, are hiding emissions fixing software.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:20 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: You also get into a very uncomfortable area. I mean if 450,000 cars with 40X emissions kill N number of people, then 250,000,000 cars with 1X emissions kill 14*N people. No automotive industry member or supporter or bought politician wants that on the public record.
Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

Sure, but there's a lot of entrenched money that doesn't want combustion engines viewed as death machines. That's why I think this will be more about "OMG Fraud! German Lies!" than "OMG Environmental Destruction!"

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:21 pm

stessier wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.
Unless they, too, are hiding emissions fixing software.

Well, until they're all solar/wind/hydro powered they kind of are.

(BTW, a Model S cut me off this morning so screw them!)

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:31 pm

Deviatinging from the topic at hand, but even were EV power generation emissions as bad as gas (they're not, anywhere in the US), it's still a huge improvement to have it at the plant.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:28 pm

stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.

Know you wont!

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:34 pm

Unagi wrote:
stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.
Know you wont!

It's a law course, not English!

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:42 pm

stessier wrote:
Unagi wrote:
stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.
Know you wont!
It's a law course, not English!

You mean knot English.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:48 am

Winterkorn just resigned as CEO.

Surprised it took that long.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:55 am

Zaxxon wrote: Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.

Can we take them on long road trips yet?

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:00 pm

stessier wrote:Winterkorn just resigned as CEO.

Surprised it took that long.

He had to face down the board and test the waters. Of course, he was probably hoping they weren't going to call him 'chum'.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:03 pm

I don't think he or anyone else expected him to stay in the position. The moment he apologized, it was over for him.

I think it was the right thing to do, rather than the "I had no idea this was happening but we will get to the bottom of it" usual crap we get. But it signaled his imminent doom.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:23 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:I don't think he or anyone else expected him to stay in the position. The moment he apologized, it was over for him.

I think it was the right thing to do, rather than the "I had no idea this was happening but we will get to the bottom of it" usual crap we get. But it signaled his imminent doom.

Yep. Also, he was head of product dev. I'm sure the questioning of what he knew, when, is not over.

Jeff V wrote:
Zaxxon wrote: Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.
Can we take them on long road trips yet?

I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:29 pm

Zaxxon wrote: I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.

Went out to play darts for a few hours with some friends last night. A new guy in the group works at a Tesla showroom/dealership/whatever they're called. He was a total evangelist (even had on a Tesla polo) and kept offering everyone rides home in his Model S. I almost took him up on it but figured I just met the guy. Maybe next time.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:50 pm

Nice. Although riding in a Model S can be dangerous to your future wallet.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:02 pm

This is a crazy scandal. I can't imagine how it occurred; I mean how many people had to be involved or could have been aware about the gamesmanship? Dozens? Also I can't help but feel that VW down the road is going to break itself up to salvage value in "non-affected" brands - say Porsche for example.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:08 pm

malchior wrote:This is a crazy scandal. I can't imagine how it occurred; I mean how many people had to be involved or could have been aware about the gamesmanship? Dozens? Also I can't help but feel that VW down the road is going to break itself up to salvage value in "non-affected" brands - say Porsche for example.

A lot of those brands depend on the size of Volkswagen Group though. Like Bentley, Bugatti, and Lamborghini. They can't really go it alone anymore. I don't know about the truck divisions like Scania. Maybe.

After VW bought Bentley, they spent more to modernize the Bentley factory than they did to buy Bentley.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:06 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Can we take them on long road trips yet?

I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.[/quote]

So they can take them on 1000 mile + road trips? Is the time to charge them down to the same as filling a tank with gas?