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Volkswagen

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stessier
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by stessier » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:08 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:
Jeff V wrote: Can we take them on long road trips yet?
I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.
So they can take them on 1000 mile + road trips? Is the time to charge them down to the same as filling a tank with gas?
Yes, they go much more than 1000 mile road trips. No, not as fast as a gas tank, but as fast as stopping for a snack/meal. Again, this is for non-JeffV humans.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by coopasonic » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:15 pm

Something like 30-40 min stop every 3 hours or so as long as there are superchargers on your route. Not optimal, but worth consideration.

How often do you make 1000 mile road trips? I did a 500 mile one way drive with my gas car this summer... I don't think I'll drive 1000 at any time ever. I've done 800+ 3 times in my life and two of those were with my car on a trailer behind a rental truck.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:17 pm

Don't bring logic into a Jeff V tirade a brewin.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by ImLawBoy » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:22 pm

Guys, if we can't drive an electric car around the world (including over water) at 100mph without stopping once RIGHT NOW, it's not worth continuing down the path of developing them.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:38 pm

coopasonic wrote:Something like 30-40 min stop every 3 hours or so as long as there are superchargers on your route. Not optimal, but worth consideration.

How often do you make 1000 mile road trips? I did a 500 mile one way drive with my gas car this summer... I don't think I'll drive 1000 at any time ever. I've done 800+ 3 times in my life and two of those were with my car on a trailer behind a rental truck.
1 time in 10 years.

But I don't travel much.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by hepcat » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:39 pm

I'm not sure how this would even be worded on the JeffV List (if I had the energy to still maintain it). Would it be failure to achieve perfection immediately? Or simply "electric bad!"?
Last edited by hepcat on Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:39 pm

You're getting lazy in your middle age.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:49 pm

hepcat wrote:I'm not sure how this would even be worded on the JeffV List (if I had the energy to still maintain it). Would it be failure to achieve perfection immediately? Or simply "electric bad!"?
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by em2nought » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:21 pm

Maybe "The Donald" can get VW and Germany to take all of our future Syrian immigrants in exchange for giving them a "bye" on this one. :mrgreen:
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Jeff V » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:33 pm

stessier wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:
Jeff V wrote: Can we take them on long road trips yet?
I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.
So they can take them on 1000 mile + road trips? Is the time to charge them down to the same as filling a tank with gas?
Yes, they go much more than 1000 mile road trips. No, not as fast as a gas tank, but as fast as stopping for a snack/meal. Again, this is for non-JeffV humans.
No, he mentioned replacing all cars, which means all uses. My current car has been on 3 trips more than 1,000 miles away, and a whole bunch greater than 300 miles. Taking an hour break every few hours just won't cut it. And aren't most electric cars still in the <100 mile range? I seem to recall the Chevys aren't even suitable for commuting to work, I'd run out of power before I made it home.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by ImLawBoy » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:36 pm

Jeff V wrote:
stessier wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:
Jeff V wrote: Can we take them on long road trips yet?
I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.
So they can take them on 1000 mile + road trips? Is the time to charge them down to the same as filling a tank with gas?
Yes, they go much more than 1000 mile road trips. No, not as fast as a gas tank, but as fast as stopping for a snack/meal. Again, this is for non-JeffV humans.
No, he mentioned replacing all cars, which means all uses. My current car has been on 3 trips more than 1,000 miles away, and a whole bunch greater than 300 miles. Taking an hour break every few hours just won't cut it. And aren't most electric cars still in the <100 mile range? I seem to recall the Chevys aren't even suitable for commuting to work, I'd run out of power before I made it home.
Jeff, he said it was a step in the move. He didn't say that the move was immediate. Do you really think he was advocating going to an entire EV fleet tomorrow? Do you really think there will be no more improvement in EV technology?
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:41 pm

Jeff V wrote:
No, he mentioned replacing all cars, which means all uses. My current car has been on 3 trips more than 1,000 miles away, and a whole bunch greater than 300 miles. Taking an hour break every few hours just won't cut it. And aren't most electric cars still in the <100 mile range? I seem to recall the Chevys aren't even suitable for commuting to work, I'd run out of power before I made it home.
The Model S is somewhere around 250 miles. You'd only have to stop once a day to recharge if you drive 500 miles. That's 7+ hours of driving with one stop. If you drive 1,000 miles straight through, that is if you drive 14+ hours straight, well I guess you need combustion if you don't want to stop 3 times.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by hepcat » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:53 pm

em2nought wrote:Maybe "The Donald" can get VW and Germany to take all of our future Syrian immigrants in exchange for giving them a "bye" on this one. :mrgreen:
I simply cannot stress how important it is for you to keep your day job.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Brian » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:21 pm

Image
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:32 pm

Jeff V wrote:
stessier wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:
Jeff V wrote: Can we take them on long road trips yet?
I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.
So they can take them on 1000 mile + road trips? Is the time to charge them down to the same as filling a tank with gas?
Yes, they go much more than 1000 mile road trips. No, not as fast as a gas tank, but as fast as stopping for a snack/meal. Again, this is for non-JeffV humans.
No, he mentioned replacing all cars, which means all uses. My current car has been on 3 trips more than 1,000 miles away, and a whole bunch greater than 300 miles. Taking an hour break every few hours just won't cut it. And aren't most electric cars still in the <100 mile range? I seem to recall the Chevys aren't even suitable for commuting to work, I'd run out of power before I made it home.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by em2nought » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:03 pm

hepcat wrote:
em2nought wrote:Maybe "The Donald" can get VW and Germany to take all of our future Syrian immigrants in exchange for giving them a "bye" on this one. :mrgreen:
I simply cannot stress how important it is for you to keep your day job.
You follow me like a little puppy, you must enjoy some aspect of it? There's not even the chance for a pat on the head or a belly rub. :mrgreen:
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by gbasden » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:04 pm

hepcat wrote:
em2nought wrote:Maybe "The Donald" can get VW and Germany to take all of our future Syrian immigrants in exchange for giving them a "bye" on this one. :mrgreen:
I simply cannot stress how important it is for you to keep your day job.
A thousand times this.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by stessier » Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:46 am

Brian wrote:Image
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by stessier » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:57 am

Heads continue to roll.
Volkswagen will dismiss the R&D chiefs of Audi and Porsche and its top manager in the United States where the carmaker has been found manipulating diesel emission rules, a senior source said on Thursday.

Audi R&D boss Ulrich Hackenberg, Porsche's Wolfgang Hatz and VW's U.S. chief executive Michael Horn will be dismissed at a meeting of the supervisory board on Friday, the source said.

Germany's Bild newspaper earlier on Thursday reported the dismissals of Hackenberg and Hatz.

VW, Audi and Porsche all declined comment.
Not really sure how the US CEO was supposed to be in on it - I thought all the design work was done overseas.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:02 am

There's probably no way he didn't know about it. You would have to work very hard to convince people, including myself, that he wasn't at least an accessory after the fact.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by malchior » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:09 am

It might all come down to how long did they know about it - if the allegation they became generally aware internally about it in December is accurate then people at all levels of leadership were likely in the know and will suffer for not coming forward sooner. I guess it was a calculated risk. Maybe they hoped they wouldn't get caught with a hand in the cookie jar.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Max Peck » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:16 am

In other VW news...

Volkswagen 'allowed torture' under Brazil military rule
In its final report, published in December 2014, the truth commission described the case of Volkswagen employee Lucio Bellentani.

"I was at work when two people with machine guns came up to me," the communist activist said. "They held my arms behind my back and immediately put me in handcuffs. As soon as we arrived in Volkswagen's security centre, the torture began. I was beaten, punched and slapped." According to lawyer Rosa Cardoso, 12 employees at the Sao Bernardo do Campo site near Sao Paulo were tortured, while others were laid off and placed on blacklists.

When the allegations were published in the truth commission's report last year, Volkswagen said it was "pursuing any indication of possible involvement of the employees at Volkswagen do Brasil in human rights violations during the period of military dictatorship".
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by coopasonic » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:34 am

Jeff V wrote:I seem to recall the Chevys aren't even suitable for commuting to work, I'd run out of power before I made it home.
I walk past a row of Chevy Volts on my way out of the parking garage in the morning. They get parking right next to the handicapped spots where they are plugged in loading up on free electricity provided by my employer. If the 40 miles they get out of that is not enough to get them home, the gas engine under the hood is happy to finish the job. The problem with the Volt is the same as the problem with the Tesla... I can't afford one (well I could afford a Volt but I am not paying that much for a car that ugly).
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by hepcat » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:39 am

My coworker has a Volt. They are certainly not cheap.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Jeff V » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:52 am

coopasonic wrote:
Jeff V wrote:I seem to recall the Chevys aren't even suitable for commuting to work, I'd run out of power before I made it home.
I walk past a row of Chevy Volts on my way out of the parking garage in the morning. They get parking right next to the handicapped spots where they are plugged in loading up on free electricity provided by my employer. If the 40 miles they get out of that is not enough to get them home, the gas engine under the hood is happy to finish the job. The problem with the Volt is the same as the problem with the Tesla... I can't afford one (well I could afford a Volt but I am not paying that much for a car that ugly).
My employer does not have such a thing. Of the 9 locations where I have responsibility, they provide a bike rack at only one, so I don't really envision this happening, ever.

I think we're still several quantum leaps in technology before electric cars are practical enough for most people. I think gas prices have to be much higher and oil reserves more critical before there is adequate research funding to make this happen. I just don't see it happening in my lifetime (remember, we were promised flying cars by now!)

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by hepcat » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:18 am

Jeff V wrote:
My employer does not have such a thing. Of the 9 locations where I have responsibility, they provide a bike rack at only one, so I don't really envision this happening, ever.
Why would you need a bike rack for an electric car? :?
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Drazzil » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:31 am

Brian wrote:Image
Fundamentally, German cars are engineered to screw their owners...
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by coopasonic » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:34 am

Jeff V wrote:I just don't see it happening in my lifetime (remember, we were promised flying cars by now!)
We were also promised the end of the world. One of these promises is more likely to come to fruition than the other. Side-note: Cars that fly are a thing, they are just expensive. Terrafugia and Aeromobil both have working prototypes and are happy to take your down payment now.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by ImLawBoy » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:42 am

coopasonic wrote:
Jeff V wrote:I just don't see it happening in my lifetime (remember, we were promised flying cars by now!)
We were also promised the end of the world. One of these promises is more likely to come to fruition than the other. Side-note: Cars that fly are a thing, they are just expensive. Terrafugia and Aeromobil both have working prototypes and are happy to take your down payment now.
But can you go 1000 miles in one?
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Kraken » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:01 pm

Jeff V wrote:
I think we're still several quantum leaps in technology before electric cars are practical enough for most people.
The only technology that needs to advance significantly is battery storage, and many companies are spending big R&D bucks on that. The impetus comes not just from EVs, but from handheld devices and solar/wind generation as well. That makes it a high-stakes area for a lot of companies in varying industries.

I agree that incremental improvements to lithium-ion batteries aren't going to cut it, but with so many players spending so much on such high-stakes research the odds for a transformational breakthrough in the near future are very good.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by hepcat » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:05 pm

I honestly believe the technology will be there within the next 5 years to make electric cars competitive with their gas powered brethren. Now, whether or not the people who make their money off the current mode of transportation will allow it to gain a real foothold is another matter entirely.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:07 pm

Jeff V wrote:
coopasonic wrote:
Jeff V wrote:I seem to recall the Chevys aren't even suitable for commuting to work, I'd run out of power before I made it home.
I walk past a row of Chevy Volts on my way out of the parking garage in the morning. They get parking right next to the handicapped spots where they are plugged in loading up on free electricity provided by my employer. If the 40 miles they get out of that is not enough to get them home, the gas engine under the hood is happy to finish the job. The problem with the Volt is the same as the problem with the Tesla... I can't afford one (well I could afford a Volt but I am not paying that much for a car that ugly).
My employer does not have such a thing. Of the 9 locations where I have responsibility, they provide a bike rack at only one, so I don't really envision this happening, ever.

I think we're still several quantum leaps in technology before electric cars are practical enough for most people. I think gas prices have to be much higher and oil reserves more critical before there is adequate research funding to make this happen. I just don't see it happening in my lifetime (remember, we were promised flying cars by now!)
They're just getting a free 40 miles with plug-in stations at work.

Volts run on gas too, you know. That's what "plug-in hybrid" means.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:13 pm

hepcat wrote:I honestly believe the technology will be there within the next 5 years to make electric cars competitive with their gas powered brethren. Now, whether or not the people who make their money off the current mode of transportation will allow it to gain a real foothold is another matter entirely.
I figure states that ban direct sales in-state because of the outdated dealership model are going to end up on the wrong side of a Commerce Clause federal lawsuit before the decade is out.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by hepcat » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:17 pm

I'm curious about the state of hydrogen fueled cars, too. I know they are purported to be long range in comparison to EVs. Although I believe refueling is supposed to be in line with current gas prices...which means no real savings, I guess.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:21 pm

The Motley Fool, Sep 19, 2015
Toyota's (NYSE: TM) Mirai is an electric sedan powered by a hydrogen fuel cell, a device that chemically extracts the energy from hydrogen gas to produce electricity.

It's a clean technology -- the only "exhaust" is water vapor -- but producing hydrogen affordably isn't exactly a clean process right now. That has led many green-car enthusiasts to disparage Toyota's effort.

Toyota says that fuel cells are superior to the batteries used in electric cars like Tesla Motors'(NASDAQ: TSLA) Model S. As Toyota sees it, electric-car batteries take too long to recharge -- and that will keep battery-electric cars from ever breaking out into the mass market.

Toyota scientists say that fast recharging isn't realistic. But this past week, Audi showed off an electric SUV with Tesla-beating range that can be fully recharged in less than an hour. It'll be in production in about two years, the company says.
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:23 pm

Toyota Mirai
Coming in Late 2015
...
2016 MIRAI MSRP $57,50019
Fuel Pump Icon COMPLIMENTARY FUEL FOR 3 YEARS
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by hepcat » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:27 pm

Bullet point number 1:

1: Our tanks are designed not to leak.

:lol:
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:43 pm

From what I've read, the Mirai, and hydrogen in general, are a joke. They are EVs with an extraneous conversion tossed in. Electricity is used to create the hydrogen cell, then it's converted back to electricity to power the car. Fundamentally, this process cannot be as efficient as a pure BEV.

Then you have much-reduced power output (read: torque), the need to visit a hydrogen station for fill-ups rather than topping off at home, and you're carrying around a literal bomb in your car.

I'll pass.

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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:09 pm

Then there's a literal bomb sitting on my back porch cooking up my chicken.

Taste the meat, not the >KABOOM<
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Re: Volkswagen

Post by Zaxxon » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:36 pm

How often do you drive your grill at high rates of speed? ;)

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