Militia Takes Over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

[RunningMn9]

Does the extended patch say "3%, plus fairly decisive monetary and direct military support from France"? Maybe something like "3% + France"?

It also doesn't address the economic devastation that would result. These people are fucking idiots.

[LordMortis]

Following arms with (and snacks) may have great potential. Someone write that down so it's not forgotten. Especially during all of the debates.

[Sepiche]

Do these people understand how absurdly ridiculous their idiotic civil war talk is? How many people do they really think are going to flock to Oregon, quitting their jobs, to start a war because these assholes invaded a wildlife refuge illegally?

Everything I see any of these guys post just reinforces my opinion that they're largely a bunch of right wing conspiracy/gun nuts that just want a chance to play soldier.

I mean, I'm sure it's fun to pretend the world around you is one giant Tom Clancy novel and that only you and Cletus from the farm down the lane know what's really going on, but it's when their little fantasy land starts colliding with reality that things get a little more serious.

[LawBeefaroni]

One of the things I learned yesterday during the live feed (seriously, I had no idea) is that these guys self-identify as "3%ers" -- you can sometimes see it on a patch or a belt buckle, usually with a "III" on it. They believe that the American Revolution was possible because 3% of the colonial citizens were able to take up arms and fight back. Subsequently, all they need in modern 'merica is 3% of the population willing to take up arms (or snacks) and fight back against THE MAN. So yes, they do believe just a select few will be able to usher the rest of us into a place where we can all own a dildo-burning barrel.

Does the extended patch say "3%, plus fairly decisive monetary and direct military support from France"? Maybe something like "3% + France"?

Don't forget they also had about 3,000 miles of moat as well, back when it took weeks to cross that distance.

It would be like if THE MAN was quite a ways past the orbit of the moon.

[Holman]

Presumably 3% refers to the size of the continental army and colonial militia forces compared to the population of the thirteen colonies at the time. (The more important statistic is, I've always heard, that slightly less than half of all colonists fully supported independence and less than a quarter were committed royalists.)

But if 3% was the key, it should be pointed out that this was a force of 80,000 soldiers, roughly equal to the size of the British army and its mercenaries in North America. And, of course, both armies were comparably supplied with weapons and the military technology of the time.

So the 3%ers just need to find enough armed militia fanatics to equal the manpower of the U.S. military, equip them to a similar level, and find a way to fight from a supportive population base on the other side of an ocean.

[Moliere]

In fairness, if just over 9 million heavily armed 'Mericans took up arms (and snacks), they would present a *serious* problem for THE MAN. There aren't 9 million heavily armed 'Mericans that are going to take up arms (but possibly snacks), because these idiots decided to illegally take over a wildlife refuge.

You keep saying they illegally took over the wildlife refuge. Is there a legal way to do that? Calling for an armed rebellion kind of implies their actions to be illegal when they invade an unmanned tourist shop in the middle of nowhere.

[Smoove_B]

Well in doing some Googling there were about 2.5 million colonists estimated in 1776. 3% would be about 75,000. However, there were estimates of over 100,000 trained soldiers and about 200,000 untrained militia that fought for our right to bear snacks. I'm not a historian or even a recent student of history, so I'm at the mercy of the Internets. But the idea that 9 million people with the training, background and motivation of the Branch Dildonians being a threat to the government? Good grief.

[Isgrimnur]

Not to mention that I don't imagine setting up your own Valley Forge in Oregon in December/January is the wisest move.

[LawBeefaroni]

Well in doing some Googling there were about 2.5 million colonists estimated in 1776. 3% would be about 75,000. However, there were estimates of over 100,000 trained soldiers and about 200,000 untrained militia that fought for our right to bear snacks. I'm not a historian or even a recent student of history, so I'm at the mercy of the Internets. But the idea that 9 million people with the training, background and motivation of the Branch Dildonians being a threat to the government? Good grief.

Keep in mind also that back then being "trained" as well as the British troops just meant being able to load and fire a musket and shoot it at ranks of soldiers in bright red uniforms. Being able to use cover was cutting edge warfare. Being an adept hunter put you ahead of most rank and file infantry of the time.

Today being trained as well as professional soldiers means a whole lot more than just buying tactical gear and being skilled in the use of small arms.

[Smoove_B]

Today being trained as well as professional soldiers means a whole lot more than just buying tactical gear and being skilled in the use of small arms.

Yesterday I watched the "well trained militia" dig a trench at the base of a mountain. Were they planning on filling it with lube or burned dildos as a trap? They've been there for almost a month and they're just starting their defensive encampment the day the feds apparently arrest the brains of the operation? These are man-children that have been playing war for the last three weeks.

[LawBeefaroni]

Today being trained as well as professional soldiers means a whole lot more than just buying tactical gear and being skilled in the use of small arms.

Yesterday I watched the "well trained militia" dig a trench at the base of a mountain. Were they planning on filling it with lube or burned dildos as a trap? They've been there for almost a month and they're just starting their defensive encampment the day the feds apparently arrest the brains of the operation? These are man-children that have been playing war for the last three weeks.

"OK guys, I have an idea. Don't laugh, but have you ever watched the A-Team?..."

[Holman]

Well in doing some Googling there were about 2.5 million colonists estimated in 1776. 3% would be about 75,000. However, there were estimates of over 100,000 trained soldiers and about 200,000 untrained militia that fought for our right to bear snacks. I'm not a historian or even a recent student of history, so I'm at the mercy of the Internets. But the idea that 9 million people with the training, background and motivation of the Branch Dildonians being a threat to the government? Good grief.

I believe the 3% is supposed to refer to the number of armed men in the Revolution, and stats I've seen do put that number around 75,000-80,000. (The 100,000 + 200,000 sounds higher than I've heard--maybe that's a total across 8 years of war, not the total at any one time.)

It's often pointed out that, even though Britain was the world superpower at the time, their forces in North America seldom outnumbered the rebels.

Keep in mind also that back then being "trained" as well as the British troops just meant being able to load and fire a musket and shoot it at ranks of soldiers in bright red uniforms. Being able to use cover was cutting edge warfare. Being an adept hunter put you ahead of most rank and file infantry of the time.

Today being trained as well as professional soldiers means a whole lot more than just buying tactical gear and being skilled in the use of small arms.

And photos from the occupation suggest that most of these guys are not exactly in boot-camp shape.

[coopasonic]

There aren't 9 million heavily armed 'Mericans that are going to take up arms (but possibly snacks), because these idiots decided to illegally take over a wildlife refuge.

What's the population of Texas?

[Holman]

Full video of LaVoy Finicum's death has been released. It's helicopter or drone footage from above.

You see Finicum's car speeding away from a stop. At 9:15 he encounters a roadblock and plows into the snow, nearly running over an officer. He leaves the car and keeps his hands up for a few seconds while officers have him at gunpoint, then he appears to reach for a weapon and draw it or fumble with it, at which point he is shot.

[Rip]

My first thought was that he might of lived had the others not continued to standoff with the officers for several minutes.

I'm pretty sure if the others had immediately given up he would have gotten fairly quick medical attention. As it was they had no choice but to let him lay there for an awfully long time.

[Holman]

My first thought was that he might of lived had the others not continued to standoff with the officers for several minutes.

I'm pretty sure if the others had immediately given up he would have gotten fairly quick medical attention. As it was they had no choice but to let him lay there for an awfully long time.

At around 9:54 and after there seems to be an exchange of gunfire. It's a full five minutes after LF's death before anyone else leaves the vehicle. He throws a gun to ground, and that's when you can tell it's over.

[Sepiche]

Transcript of the FBI statement has a few extra details:

Good evening. My name is Greg Bretzing, and I am the Special Agent in Charge of the FBI in Oregon.
We have quite a bit of information to share with you tonight concerning the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

First, I would like to confirm that as of this morning one more person left the refuge through a checkpoint. We believe there are four others who currently remain on the refuge. Since the establishment of checkpoints, a total of nine people have left the refuge. Of those, the FBI released six and arrested three.

Secondly, I would like to confirm that the FBI and Oregon State Police have narrowed the containment zones. This was done to make it more convenient for those who live and work in the immediate area of the refuge to go about their business. To this end, Highway 205 is now open in both directions.

There has been some media reporting that the situation at the refuge is resolved. That is NOT true. Again, we still believe there are occupiers on the refuge. The negotiators continue to work around the clock to talk to those four people in an effort to get them to come out peacefully.

Thirdly, we know there is quite a bit of interest related to the events as they occurred on Highway 395 on Tuesday afternoon. We know there are various versions of what occurred during this event: most inaccurate, some inflammatory. To that end, we want to do what we can to lay out an honest and unfiltered view of what happened and how it happened.

FBI agents and Oregon State Police troopers were involved in this operation. During this operation, OSP troopers utilized deadly force due to their proximity to LaVoy Finicum as the situation unfolded. Because of this, the Deschutes County Major Incident Team is conducting the outside review of the shooting per Oregon State law and established protocols. Because of that on-going investigation, I will not be able to answer every question you have... but hopefully we will give the public some clarity as to what occurred.

At approximately 4:25 pm on Tuesday, January 26, 2016, FBI and OSP began a law enforcement action to bring into custody the people riding in two separate vehicles as they traveled between Burns and John Day. The FBI did have a plane in the air, and what I am about to show you is a video from that plane. A couple of notes about the video before we watch it.

The plane is following the vehicles, and the camera sometimes pans from one vehicle to the other... a white truck in front and a jeep in back. At other times when the vehicles are in a fixed location, the plane is flying in a pattern over that location. Because of that flight pattern, there are portions where trees obscure what is happening. The details that I am about to provide to you are based both on an analysis of this video and some ground-level observations of agents and troopers on the scene.

Because the operation lasted more than 25 minutes, we are showing you two of the most pertinent clips today. The entire unedited video from the start of the traffic stop through the surrender of all individuals will be available to the media and the general public on the FBI's YouTube channel.

Because I am using some very specific language to describe what is happening, the entire transcript of my comments will be posted to

I want to caution you that the video does show the shooting death of LaVoy Finicum. We realize that viewing that piece of the video will be upsetting to some people, but we feel that it is necessary to show the whole thing unedited in the interest of transparency.

The video picks up a few seconds before the FBI and OSP vehicles pull in behind the jeep -- the second vehicle in line. The jeep quickly pulls to a stop while the white truck -- driven by LaVoy Finicum -- continues some distance up the road. Some law enforcement vehicles stay with the jeep while others continue following the white truck. Over a period of several minutes out of camera view, the following people exit the jeep without incident:

The driver -- who was not charged and will not be named
Ammon Bundy
Brian Cavalier

Looking at the white truck... about four minutes into the video ... Ryan Payne exits through a back door. It's difficult to see behind the trees, but in the lower right hand corner you can see him with his hands up being approached by the law enforcement officers and being taken into custody.

There is a period of approximately 3 minutes and 47 seconds where the truck sits on the road. We have edited it for time here, but it is available in the raw, unedited version on the FBI's YouTube channel. Throughout this time, agents and troopers are providing verbal commands to the occupants to surrender. We can't comment on what may have been going on in the truck at this time, but those details may come out later as part of the overall shooting investigation.
When we come back to the video, the white truck leaves the scene at a high rate of speed. It travels some distance... quickly approaching a vehicle roadblock in the roadway.

As the white truck approaches the roadblock, there is a spike strip across the road but it appears Finicum missed it as he attempted to drive around the roadblock. He nearly hits an FBI agent as he maneuvers to the left. The truck gets stuck in the snowbank.

Finicum leaves the truck and steps through the snow. Agents and troopers on scene had information that Finicum and others would be armed. On at least two occasions, Finicum reaches his right hand toward a pocket on the left inside portion of his jacket. He did have a loaded 9 mm semi-automatic handgun in that pocket.

At this time, OSP troopers shot Finicum.

Approximately 30 seconds after the shooting -- law enforcement officers at the scene deployed flash bangs to disorient any other armed occupants. Shortly after that, they deployed less-lethal sponge projectiles with OC capsules. Those OC capsules would be similar to pepper spray.

Over a period of several minutes agents and troopers worked to safely remove the remaining truck occupants, and to take them into custody. Those people included:

Ryan Bundy
Shawna Cox
And another woman, who was not arrested and will not be named

As soon as the agents and troopers were confident that they had addressed any further threats, they provided medical assistance to Finicum. That happened about 10 minutes after the shooting.
Agents and troopers did find 3 other loaded weapons inside the truck. They included two loaded .223 caliber semi-automatic rifles. There was also one loaded .38 special revolver.

Again, you can see the rest of this unedited video on the FBI's YouTube channel.

Finally -- again -- I want to acknowledge the stress and disruption that the occupation of the refuge has caused has to the people of Harney County. We know this is difficult. We know that you want this concluded as soon as possible. We are doing everything we can to bring this to a resolution safely and quickly.

I have time for a few questions.

[Holman]

Ah. What I called an exchange of gunfire does actually look like flash bangs.

[GreenGoo]

Perhaps I am naive but that is exactly what I expect and hope in a press release. His approach and words are exactly what I need in order to be convinced of the FBI's diligence, professionalism and lawful behaviour.

While it's true I'm biased against the occupiers I still do not want to see people die needlessly. In this case law enforcement seems to have gone above and beyond what I feel is required to prevent violence. If this approach was used in other major events I think there would be less PR issues for law enforcement in general. I realize that this approach is expensive and not warranted for your average traffic stop, but individual police officers could and would benefit from more professionalism in the execution of their duties. People are human and not robots so I understand it's not always easy to maintain composure and avoid letting emotions dominate actions. I respect what law enforcement officers do and what we ask them to do is very difficult.

As far as I'm concerned these bozos at the refuge have benefited far more from a cautious and careful approach than they deserve. I doubt they understand just how lucky they've been.

[LordMortis]

As far as I'm concerned these bozos at the refuge have benefited far more from a cautious and careful approach than they deserve. I doubt they understand just how lucky they've been.

As someone who is usually against abuses of the authority of the executive branch (and government in general) I concur. How much did this stand off of polite company cost and to what purpose was holding off on the arrests? At the same time, the cost in time and resources and manpower seems to have really done a great job from turning this into a real stand off with all of the associated violence. Kudos to local and federal authorities.

[GreenGoo]

This approach also has a political component as it has reduced any fodder for not just the guys involved, but any anti-government propaganda. They clearly wanted a confrontation with the federal government and the FBI refused to give it to them.

I wish they refused to give more groups violent confrontations because human lives matter (instead of politics matter) but I'll take it where I can get it.

I don't want them to ignore issues/problems/groups, but I'd like them to approach solving them in this more cautious way, even if politics are not nearly so directly involved.

edit: I probably wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is that I understand that this successful approach was attempted in part if not in whole because it was the correct approach politically. So while I give them credit for saving lives and avoiding more significant violence, I can't help but feel like it was only because of their political priorities, which sorta sucks.

[Holman]

The number one goal was to avoid a Ruby Ridge, and they've done that admirably here.

It's clear from the video that Finicum first complied but then went reaching for a weapon. Given that the car still held two armed people who had not yet begun to comply, it's very good that it didn't escalate.

Committed anti-government fringe types will still call Finicum a martyr, but it will be hard for that narrative to take hold elsewhere. The politicians who went along with pushing it owe us immediate retractions.

[tjg_marantz]

Lucky them for being white.

[GreenGoo]

Lucky them for being white.

What colour were the ruby ridge people?

[Jaymann]

Lucky them for being white.

What colour were the ruby ridge people?

Red?

[GreenGoo]

Lucky them for being white.

What colour were the ruby ridge people?

Red?

How about wacko?

[hepcat]

Thankfully, I truly believe the majority of people in this country realize that this was a dangerous militia and that the government showed extraordinary restraint in dealing with them...probably too much, if you ask me. These morons confused their penises with their guns long ago.

[Holman]

Lucky them for being white.

What colour were the ruby ridge people?

Whatever missteps were involved, the Ruby Ridge folks were the color of months-long fugitives who had just killed a U.S. Marshal.

I believe the comparison is with people the color of unarmed jaywalkers.

[msduncan]

I watched the video on a facebook post titled "FBI Shoots Protester Attempting to Surrender". When I watched it, and before I read that release above, I'd already noticed him taking his hands down and reaching twice for something on his person. I came to a quick conclusion that the officers made the right call. They presumed he was reaching for a weapon (and he certainly might have been).

[GreenGoo]

Lucky them for being white.

What colour were the ruby ridge people?

Whatever missteps were involved, the Ruby Ridge folks were the color of months-long fugitives who had just killed a U.S. Marshal.

After the Feds killed their dog and the 14 year old son, you mean. Given that the guy who killed the Marshal was acquitted AND received an almost $400k settlement from the US government, I find your summary somewhat...prejudiced.

When was the last time the US government paid someone who had just killed a US Marshal?

In any case, my point was that neither Weaver nor the branch davidians had the luck that tjg claimed uniquely exists for their race and their race only.

[GreenGoo]

I watched the video on a facebook post titled "FBI Shoots Protester Attempting to Surrender". When I watched it, and before I read that release above, I'd already noticed him taking his hands down and reaching twice for something on her person. I came to a quick conclusion that the officers made the right call. They presumed he was reaching for a weapon (and he certainly might have been).

The claim is that he did indeed have a gun in the pocket he was reaching for.

[Daehawk]

These guys were doing illegal stuff...Ruby Ridge all they were doing were living on their own property. What the government did there was open murder and it was all based on him refusing to become an informant and another informant lying on him .

[GreenGoo]

These guys were doing illegal stuff...Ruby Ridge all they were doing were living on their own property. What the government did there was open murder and it was all based on him refusing to become an informant and another informant lying on him .

That is all true. Where are you going with this?

[Combustible Lemur]

Fwiw weren't Ruby Ridge and Waco major turning points for the way the FBI handled standoffs? Granted I was young but those were generally seen as fiascos yes?

I'm more confused about the not arresting everyone at this site.

[Holman]

Fwiw weren't Ruby Ridge and Waco major turning points for the way the FBI handled standoffs? Granted I was young but those were generally seen as fiascos yes?

Yes, definitely. It was a different era.

I'm more confused about the not arresting everyone at this site.

We're seeing what happens when avoiding another Ruby Ridge is considered paramount. It has worked here because this situation has been remote and stable and because the instigators have been 100% incompetent.

[Grifman]

Keep in mind also that back then being "trained" as well as the British troops just meant being able to load and fire a musket and shoot it at ranks of soldiers in bright red uniforms. .

That's actually not true, or else Washington could have had a trained army in a few weeks. Instead it took several years before American troops could stand and face the British face to face on the battlefield. It was a lot more than you make it out to be.

[geezer]

Keep in mind also that back then being "trained" as well as the British troops just meant being able to load and fire a musket and shoot it at ranks of soldiers in bright red uniforms. .

That's actually not true, or else Washington could have had a trained army in a few weeks. Instead it took several years before American troops could stand and face the British face to face on the battlefield. It was a lot more than you make it out to be.

This is absolutely correct. The English army was extremely well-trained, and perhaps even more importantly, comparatively well-equipped. While it's also true that the English army was trained and designed for fighting "European-style" open field battles, Washington's army suffered many defeats and was lucky to escape intact at one point early in the war. Note that it was once the French navy prevented efficient resupply and limited British naval support that the Americans started to reverse the tide of the war*

* This is my general recollection - the revolutionary period was my concentration for my history degree in college, but I'm working from 25-year old memories here

[Apollo]

If anything, it required more training to be a soldier during the Revolutionary War period. Can you imagine standing straight up, in line formation, and going through a 20 step process to load your rifle, while bullets are flying all around you and your buddies are dropping like flies?

[GreenGoo]

If anything, it required more training to be a soldier during the Revolutionary War period. Can you imagine standing straight up, in line formation, and going through a 20 step process to load your rifle, while bullets are flying all around you and your buddies are dropping like flies?

While this illustrates that training was indeed necessary, there is no way that revolutionary era soldiers required more training than a modern day soldier.

[Pyperkub]

Indictments handed down:

A federal grand jury has indicted 16 people in connection with their roles in the Oregon wildlife refuge standoff, charging them all with a count of conspiracy to impede officers of the United States.

The group’s leader, Ammon Bundy, and 15 other people “prevented federal officials from performing their official duties by force, threats and intimidation,” according to a sealed indictment filed Wednesday in the U.S. District Court for the District of Oregon and unsealed Thursday. Each person could face up to six years in prison.

In addition to Bundy, his brother, Ryan, and others taken into custody last week in Oregon and Arizona, the indictment also charges the four people still at the refuge.