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Gun Politics

For discussion of religion and politics

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YellowKing
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by YellowKing » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 pm

I'm still struggling with the logic that putting more guns on school campuses where there were none previously actually *increases* school safety. It's far more likely some kid winds up with one of those guns and shoots themselves or someone else than that it actually stops a school shooter.

That's like saying the best way to prevent bulls in your china shop is to fill it with buffalos.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:00 pm

Buffalo, the arch-archnemeses of bulls everywhere.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:08 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 pm
I'm still struggling with the logic that putting more guns on school campuses where there were none previously actually *increases* school safety. It's far more likely some kid winds up with one of those guns and shoots themselves or someone else than that it actually stops a school shooter.

That's like saying the best way to prevent bulls in your china shop is to fill it with buffalos.
Buffalo Bill, you mean. Yeee-haw!

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:41 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 pm
I'm still struggling with the logic that putting more guns on school campuses where there were none previously actually *increases* school safety. It's far more likely some kid winds up with one of those guns and shoots themselves or someone else than that it actually stops a school shooter.

That's like saying the best way to prevent bulls in your china shop is to fill it with buffalos.
In reading the report (not done yet), there are a couple of factors why this is so, from my first impressions of the actual report text:

1. Most of the commission (60%+) are Sheriffs/Sheriffs officers/former Sheriffs/Officers.

-Sheriffs/Deputies/Sheriffs Officers as elected officials/beholden elected Sheriffs tend to be horrific at this in my opinion. I would think that many those affiliated, if not all, on the commission are card-carrying NRA members, and I would not be surprised at all if the Sheriffs listed had receive NRA lobbying support of some kind. Maybe I'm just biased however (part of it is how often when we see bad/violent/illegal Law Enforcement practices, they are 99% Sheriff's offices, not Police Departments), but that does explain it to a degree to me

2. They *didn't* look at the risks of arming teachers who want to be armed, just the disaster response options (or maybe, just maybe, I didn't get that far yet).

- in other words, they viewed it through a risk-free lens in terms of responding to this particular emergency, and how it would have helped *only* in the response. Not at the overall risk of more guns on campus. I didn't see any thought, much less analysis of those risks (such as, a student getting a teacher's weapon, a teacher misuing the weapon, a teacher mis reading the situation and/or shooting the wrong student, a teacher being shot by first responders accidentally, etc.).
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm

There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.

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Fitzy
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Fitzy » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Sheriff departments and police departments are often very different culturally, even within some overlapping jurisdictions.

Edit: als, do you have an in with another universe? Cause I’m ready to move.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:25 pm

Fitzy wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Sheriff departments and police departments are often very different culturally, even within some overlapping jurisdictions.
Yup, just think Sheriffs Joe and Clark
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Every cop I know tells me to carry wherever I can legally. They don't have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying. That's what they are too, after all.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:49 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Every cop I know tells me to carry wherever I can legally. They don't have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying. That's what they are too, after all.
Sure. Responding to a 911 call where people are shooting at each other must be a dream come true for them. Like I said, this universe is an anomaly.

They might be citizens, but they ain't private citizens. I leave the "law abiding" alone.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:56 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Every cop I know tells me to carry wherever I can legally. They don't have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying. That's what they are too, after all.
Well, there is Philando Castile... they do apparently have a problem with black law abiding citizens carrying...
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:49 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Every cop I know tells me to carry wherever I can legally. They don't have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying. That's what they are too, after all.
Sure. Responding to a 911 call where people are shooting at each other must be a dream come true for them. Like I said, this universe is an anomaly.

They might be citizens, but they ain't private citizens. I leave the "law abiding" alone.

Funny thing, when they respond to a shooting it very rarely involves legal carriers shooting at each other.

I'm not saying everyone, or even most people, should carry, just that the wild west scenarios that are constantly trotted out don't happen when people do. Legally.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 pm


Funny thing, when they respond to a shooting it very rarely involves legal carriers shooting at each other.

I'm not saying everyone, or even most people, should carry, just that the wild west scenarios that are constantly trotted out don't happen when people do. Legally.
Assuming people legally carry so they can shoot other people when threatened, and being threatened is often criminals, in the first few moments of police arrival, which are the bad guys? Your life depends on it. Decide.

You can't have it both ways. Either you're carrying for self defense and thus wild west, or there is no wild west so no need to carry. I don't care which it is, just pick one.

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Punisher
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 pm


Funny thing, when they respond to a shooting it very rarely involves legal carriers shooting at each other.

I'm not saying everyone, or even most people, should carry, just that the wild west scenarios that are constantly trotted out don't happen when people do. Legally.
Assuming people legally carry so they can shoot other people when threatened, and being threatened is often criminals, in the first few moments of police arrival, which are the bad guys? Your life depends on it. Decide.

You can't have it both ways. Either you're carrying for self defense and thus wild west, or there is no wild west so no need to carry. I don't care which it is, just pick one.
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:56 am

Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
Totally simple. Unarmed people who obey cops instructions are dying occasionally, but firing at another human being when a cop shows up and surviving is totally simple.

Only in America, god love ya.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:07 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:56 am
Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
Totally simple. Unarmed people who obey cops instructions are dying occasionally, but firing at another human being when a cop shows up and surviving is totally simple.

Only in America, god love ya.
Well, this is under the safe assumption that this is a known program between the police and teachers and they would be aware of whats going on. Plus, according to you, if they are unarmed they have a chance of being shot anyway, so why not give them the chance to take their chances with the police and be armed and possibly stop the bad guy and avoid getting shot by them.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:42 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 pm


Funny thing, when they respond to a shooting it very rarely involves legal carriers shooting at each other.

I'm not saying everyone, or even most people, should carry, just that the wild west scenarios that are constantly trotted out don't happen when people do. Legally.
Assuming people legally carry so they can shoot other people when threatened, and being threatened is often criminals, in the first few moments of police arrival, which are the bad guys? Your life depends on it. Decide.

Police arrival is almost always after the shooting is done. (Active shooters whose goal is to kill until dead or captured are the exception). That's why people carry. Police response time is measured in minutes. Shootings tend to last seconds. Proper training addresses what to do prior to and upon police arrival. But even then, you have to accept the risk of being misidentified by police. That's part of the deal.
GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am
You can't have it both ways. Either you're carrying for self defense and thus wild west, or there is no wild west so no need to carry. I don't care which it is, just pick one.
This is a false dichotomy. The Wild West scenario is the prediction that as soon as CCW is allowed, legal carriers will be shooting each other over parking spaces and bar bets and sidelong glances. It hasn't happened.

Most people who carry don't do so because they think it's the wild west. They carry for that one in a million chance that they will need to use a weapon in self defense. And that doesn't always involve killing or even shooting somone someone. Most defensive gun uses don't put anyone in the hospital or the ground, though you have to be prepared for that if you're going to carry.

And I will admit, there's a certain level of security you feel when well trained and carring that you can't get any other way. Actually, even just the training is a huge piece of mind.


I used to feel the same way, that every carrier wanted to be Charles Bronson and fantasized about shooting street thugs. That's not the case. At least not for a lot more concealed carriers that people think.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:59 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
Totally simple. Unarmed people who obey cops instructions are dying occasionally, but firing at another human being when a cop shows up and surviving is totally simple.

Only in America, god love ya.
Again, not in the case of philando Castille. Stopped, for nothing, as I recall, , declared licensed weapon, obeyed commands, did not make any threatening moves or actions, was murdered.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:07 pm

Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately.***
***Offer only valid for white people.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Holman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:48 pm

Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
My wife works with someone (a fellow academic, very accomplished) whose smart, straight-A, book-loving teenage son was drawn-on and roughed-up by cops while sitting on his own porch reading a Neil Gaiman comic.

He didn't draw a weapon and didn't have one, but he almost got cop-shot because he was wearing headphones and didn't notice what was going on until it was almost too late. Three cops were forcing him to the ground before he even understood the scene. They thought he was a threat because he hadn't heard their calls for him to stand and raise his hands.

(The reason: a suspect five blocks away had been described as black and wearing jeans and a hoodie.)

These occasions are not "simple" at all.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:11 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:42 am
The Wild West scenario is the prediction that as soon as CCW is allowed, legal carriers will be shooting each other over parking spaces and bar bets and sidelong glances.
I'll have to take your word on this. Is there somewhere I can see what the definition of wild west is so we can be on the same page?

Having more guns around will result in more incidents involving guns, not that people who ignored the steak knife beside them will suddenly reach for their firearm because it exists.

Wild west in my mind is what happens when everyone carries and decide that witnessing someone stealing their car radio is reason enough for someone to die.

Wild west is when justice comes from a gun, not the law. The law is for afterward, when there is only 1 witness alive to tell us what happened.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:17 pm

Holman wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:48 pm
Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
My wife works with someone (a fellow academic, very accomplished) whose smart, straight-A, book-loving teenage son was drawn-on and roughed-up by cops while sitting on his own porch reading a Neil Gaiman comic.

He didn't draw a weapon and didn't have one, but he almost got cop-shot because he was wearing headphones and didn't notice what was going on until it was almost too late. Three cops were forcing him to the ground before he even understood the scene. They thought he was a threat because he hadn't heard their calls for him to stand and raise his hands.

(The reason: a suspect five blocks away had been described as black and wearing jeans and a hoodie.)

These occasions are not "simple" at all.
I am not referring to things out in the wild. Yes, I agree there were/are bad things happening out there to citizens that shouldn't have it happen.
I am speaking specifically on the arming teachers scenario (and I'm not saying its a good idea one way or the other because it would need a lot of specific criteria)... but if it happened and if the teachers were trained properly and if they were partially trained with the police on what to do, when to do it and how to do it, then yes, it would be simple...OK, maybe simpler.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:19 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:11 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:42 am
The Wild West scenario is the prediction that as soon as CCW is allowed, legal carriers will be shooting each other over parking spaces and bar bets and sidelong glances.
I'll have to take your word on this. Is there somewhere I can see what the definition of wild west is so we can be on the same page?

Having more guns around will result in more incidents involving guns, not that people who ignored the steak knife beside them will suddenly reach for their firearm because it exists.

Wild west in my mind is what happens when everyone carries and decide that witnessing someone stealing their car radio is reason enough for someone to die.

Wild west is when justice comes from a gun, not the law. The law is for afterward, when there is only 1 witness alive to tell us what happened.
Then why do we not already see it in mass numbers in the states that have open carry laws? There are already some states where just about anyone can legally carry a gun and we dont see mass numbers of people getting shot for stealing a car radio.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:36 pm

Excellent question. What does the CDC research show?

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:57 am

Grand experiment about to happen in Brazil:
The country with the highest number of murders in the world plans to make it easier for citizens to acquire guns, hoping to help beat back crime
...

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime
I mean the first logical step would be to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. But I guess if that's impossible...
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Jaymann » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:59 am

The new Wild West.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:06 am

Jaymann wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:59 am
The new Wild West South.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Unagi » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:57 am
Grand experiment about to happen in Brazil:
The country with the highest number of murders in the world plans to make it easier for citizens to acquire guns, hoping to help beat back crime
...

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime
I mean the first logical step would be to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. But I guess if that's impossible...
Not sure what you mean. You sound sarcastic - as in - You Really do think taking the guns from criminals is a thing, while I think you also realize that's perhaps as easy as it is here (i.e. not happening here in the States)... but then that sorta throws shade on the idea that arming the good people is a working solution to stopping the bad people, where I think you feel that's not a bad idea here (in the States).


I'll be honest. I don't like the idea that Brazil's plan might work. That is pretty much the dystopian future I'd like to avoid the most.
I'm so fucking tired of 'guns'.


edit: ok, maybe you are saying exactly what you said... Since we can't take the guns from criminals, time to saddle-up and deputize the rest of us.... and yeah - that's the dystopian future I dread.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:46 am

Unagi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:57 am
Grand experiment about to happen in Brazil:
The country with the highest number of murders in the world plans to make it easier for citizens to acquire guns, hoping to help beat back crime
...

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime
I mean the first logical step would be to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. But I guess if that's impossible...
Not sure what you mean. You sound sarcastic - as in - You Really do think taking the guns from criminals is a thing, while I think you also realize that's perhaps as easy as it is here (i.e. not happening here in the States)... but then that sorta throws shade on the idea that arming the good people is a working solution to stopping the bad people, where I think you feel that's not a bad idea here (in the States).


I'll be honest. I don't like the idea that Brazil's plan might work. That is pretty much the dystopian future I'd like to avoid the most.
I'm so fucking tired of 'guns'.


edit: ok, maybe you are saying exactly what you said... Since we can't take the guns from criminals, time to saddle-up and deputize the rest of us.... and yeah - that's the dystopian future I dread.
I honestly think that disarming criminals is the best solution. However, this is expensive, difficult, and requires an immense amount if coordinated resources. If you give up on that, as is essentially the case in Brazil, legally armed citizens is really the only way to avoid a criminal dominated society. Because given the chance, criminals will almost always arm themselves.

Prohibiting citizens from protecting themselves when you don't offer them reasonable protection is a government failure.

We haven't given up on taking the illegal guns in the US yet so I'm not advocating the "weapons free" approach here. Though I'd argue that in Cook County we've pretty much given up on prosecuting anyone caught with illegal guns.



And a point of clarification. I do not advocate "deputizing" everyone. Armed citizens should not be stopping crime. The only thing they should be stopping is the imminent grievous bodily harm or death of themselves or others.
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